Start with spoken language or ASL?

[jillio]

It's who you know that determines your future. That is a given.

The topic of this thread is: "Start with spoken language or ASL?"

I'd like to believe that I speaks proper english like what we does and my native language is American Sign Language.

Research has, recently, proven that pre-spoken language humans are inclined to use a form of sign language to achieve a desired purpose.

Sign language is an innate form of language for ALL people; it is a given.

Why, then, is sign language (of any form and of any age) so greatly despised by the predominant audist society that we live within?

Fear of unlikeness?[/QUOTE]

We see it all the time, don't we? And through out history. The thing that makes it particularly important for the deaf community is that the fear translates to parctice that serves to prevent the deaf individual from living up to their full potential, and that said practices are pepetrated in children from very young infancy forward, thus making the difference that is feared a disability.

 

[jillio]

ASL and SEE..

In some total communication program, they may use ASL, and some others may use SEE.

Raising Deaf Kids

.

A "TC program" that uses a vioce off classroom with ASL as the primary means of instruction is not a TC program. It is a bi-bi program.

Likewise, a program that goes back and forth between sim-com, and voice off is not providing a consistent linguistic environment or model for the students.

The following, as well, comes directly from site for which you have provided a link.

What total communication (TC) is

TC is a way of teaching children with hearing loss.
TC encourages children with hearing loss to communicate with hearing people and each other.
TC uses both seeing and hearing to communicate.

A child who is taught using total communication may learn many skills:

Listening by using what hearing she has left
Communicating with sign language Talking
Getting her ideas across with gestures and body language
Understanding others through reading lips, listening and/or sign language
Learning cued speech. Cued speech is a system of special handshapes and positions used when someone talks. It helps a person with hearing loss understand when someone speaks.

Notice, please that it says "sign language", not ASL.

This is just the same old same old that has been used for the last 30 years with less than stellar results.

One might also consider that this is a home page for one of the many sites sponsored by Philadelphia Children's Hospital, which operates fromthe medicalized view of deafness that we are all trying to get away from, in order that we may see the deaf child in terms of the whole child, rather than as a child with pathology.

In addition, it states that TC may give a child many skills, but says nothing about eucational skills or benefits of TC. The last 30 years have shown us that TC does not provide those skills that serve to facilllitate an overall increase in the deaf child's academic functioning.

 

[rockdrummer]

A "TC program" that uses a vioce off classroom with ASL as the primary means of instruction is not a TC program. It is a bi-bi program..

Not necessarialy true in all cases which in my view is part of the problem A lack of standards on what constitutes a bibi or TC program. What is the source of your comments above or are they your opinion based on your expierence?

Total Communication Program

The mission of the Total Communication Program is to educate Deaf and Hard of Hearing students in a safe learning environment that facilitates the acquisition of communication and knowledge in the least restrictive environment.

Total Communication (TC) is a philosophy for educating deaf and hard of hearing students. It allows accessibility to language through a variety of modes including but not limited to American Sign Language (ASL), written and spoken English, finger spelling, speechreading, gestures, drawings, and the use of amplification and technology. TC allows the individual student to use the mode of communication that is most appropriate and comfortable in a given situation. It is a philosophy that allows flexibility by providing a variety of communication options, which caters to each student’s individual needs. Our program serves Deaf and Hard of Hearing children from preschool to sixth grade. Each student receives an Individualized Education Program (IEP) that addresses his or her academic, social, emotional, and physical needs. The TC Program uses Fairfax County’s Program of Studies (POS) as a curriculum guide. This program is comprised of Teachers of the Deaf, Instructional Assistants, a Speech and Language Clinician, an Educational Audiologist, a Social Worker, and Sign Language Interpreters. Additional school staff who provide support to the TC program are a school psychologist, an occupational therapist, and an adaptive PE teacher all of whom can sign. Mrs. Tina Tingler, Assistant Principal, is the administrator responsible for the TC program.
Source: Total Communication Program

 

[Cheri]

A "TC program" that uses a vioce off classroom with ASL as the primary means of instruction is not a TC program. It is a bi-bi program.

Likewise, a program that goes back and forth between sim-com, and voice off is not providing a consistent linguistic environment or model for the students.

The following, as well, comes directly from site for which you have provided a link.

What total communication (TC) is

TC is a way of teaching children with hearing loss.
TC encourages children with hearing loss to communicate with hearing people and each other.
TC uses both seeing and hearing to communicate.

A child who is taught using total communication may learn many skills:

Listening by using what hearing she has left
Communicating with sign language Talking
Getting her ideas across with gestures and body language
Understanding others through reading lips, listening and/or sign language
Learning cued speech. Cued speech is a system of special handshapes and positions used when someone talks. It helps a person with hearing loss understand when someone speaks.

Notice, please that it says "sign language", not ASL.

Yes, I've noticed it says "sign language" It means any form of sign language. I've read a posted that was made by faire_jour which I believe on another thread, that her/his daughter was in a total communication class before and they use ASL in that TC program.

 

[jillio]

Not necessarialy true in all cases which in my view is part of the problem A lack of standards on what constitutes a bibi or TC program. What is the source of your comments above or are they your opinion based on your expierence?

Perhaps you should check into further resources and studies done regarding TC. Much research (and yes, it is out there and available to all) has shown that the sign language used in TC classrooms is not ASL, but at best, PSE. That provides a distorted language model.

And again, I ask, if TC has been so effective as an educational methodology, why is it, after 30 years of use, we are continuing to see the same problems that we have seen since the Milan Conference in deaf children's academic functioning?

 

[jillio]

Yes, I've noticed it says "sign language" It means any form of sign language. I've read a posted that was made by faire_jour which I believe on another thread, that her/his daughter was in a total communication class before and they use ASL in that TC program.

No, faire jour's daughter is in a bi-bi program.

 

[Cheri]

No, faire jour's daughter is in a bi-bi program.

I said "was" meaning before, I know his/her daughter is in a bi-bi program now.

 

[jillio]

I said "was" meaning before, I know his/her daughter is in a bi-bi program now.

She said that the pulbic program that was TC merged with the bi-bi program in which her daughter is enrolled. Her daughter was not enrolled in that program.

 

[Cheri]

Perhaps you should check into further resources and studies done regarding TC. Much research (and yes, it is out there and available to all) has shown that the sign language used in TC classrooms is not ASL, but at best, PSE. That provides a distorted language model.

I think perhaps you should re-check resources, yet you haven't provide anything to back up your point of view...

I found another link:

* Bilingual/Bicultural (Bi-Bi)—A bilingual approach supports development of American Sign Language (ASL) as a child's first language, with development of English as a second language through reading, writing, and spoken language (specific to each child's potential and needs).

* Total Communication (TC)—Includes the use of all modes of communication—sign language (ASL or manually coded English), spoken language, mime, facial expression, gestures, etc.—to facilitate language development and communication. The intention of this methodology is to provide a child with any modality necessary to support the child in developing language. Its intention is not that all modalities be equally weighted and utilized for all children. The most common embodiment of TC, however, has become simultaneous communication. Simultaneous communication is the use of the spoken word simultaneously with the signed version of all or part of the spoken utterance. The signs used are usually an attempt to match the spoken message.

Considerations for the Use of Sign Language for Children With Cochlear Implants--KidsWorld Deaf Net E-Doc--Gallaudet University's Laurent Clerc National Deaf Education Center

Do you want more?

 

[Cheri]

She said that the pulbic program that was TC merged with the bi-bi program in which her daughter is enrolled. Her daughter was not enrolled in that program.

Well, I would like to hear from faire_jour himself/herself.

 

[imdeafsowhat]

You people are basing a lot things on researched facts.

To be honest, I don't need to research anything about the deaf, sign languages, and spoken languages when I already know what I have went through.

4 years of speech thearpy has given me the ability to speak. And I can speak perfectly fine also I can lipread 100% and I don't misunderstand.

I was exposed to ASL when I went to a local deaf camp. I was 7 years old, but comparing their level of sign language, it was extremely low because they didn't understand what I was saying, simply because I was signing SEE. Now you see what I'm trying to explain, the kids who was raised with ASL only cannot understand MY english when I am solid in SEE. Now do you see what lies here? SEE and ASL doesn't usually come together in those lives of the deaf children, why? Parents. There are a lot parents out there that are restricting their own child to ONE language because they only know one language.

jillio and shel, it's obvious that you both know not only one languages but mulitple. Great posts you girls did on this thread, I was shocked how this turned out. Also, why lock when we are actually learning? I learned a lot, because I have met different deaf people with no knowledge, simply because they lead different lives than we do.

SEE is not to be viewed as a weak subject. I was raised with SEE and I think it's much more powerful than ASL, why, and how, because in this world, if you learn how to speak, you'd be able to communicate with basically everyone, but then if you didn't, you'd be limiting yourself to several people. I wouldn't allow myself be limited, nor shall you or your kids. SEE can give ideas of what ASL would be like because it is signing exact english which doesn't have the ASL "structure" but the signs are the same, the concept are still the same. If a person who knows only ASL doesn't understand SEE or English, it's clear that person is limited. Or shall I say, dumb.

Shel- being offended is part of life, it's the reactions that matters the most, you being offended and telling people, aka "bitching at people" about it is not mature. In fact, it is insulting that you are taking it in different ways when we meant in other ways. So suck it up and make your opinion stronger.



I truly enjoyed this, I hope there'll be more threads like this.

 

[jillio]

I think perhaps you should re-check resources, yet you haven't provide anything to back up your point of view...

I found another link:



Considerations for the Use of Sign Language for Children With Cochlear Implants--KidsWorld Deaf Net E-Doc--Gallaudet University's Laurent Clerc National Deaf Education Center

Do you want more?

Cheri, I am well versed in the differences between Bi-Bi and TC. You are the one that appears to be confused regarding the two. Are you reading any of the links that you post? We are not discussing the differences between bi-bi and TC. We are discussing the advantages/disadvantages of a first language choice.

 

[Jiro]

You see, Wolf... I believe it's very important that our laws and standards are based on researched facts. I'm glad to hear that things went well for you... and same for me.... but can we say same for general deaf population? It is not reliable nor consistent. The result is not even 50/50. That's the reason why it's called a "Research." It is repeatedly and exhaustively tested, debated, revised and debated again. As Jillio and Shel pointed out with many substantiated studies... it represents a much more reliable success for general deaf population.

 

[Cheri]

Cheri, I am well versed in the differences between Bi-Bi and TC. You are the one that appears to be confused regarding the two. Are you reading any of the links that you post? We are not discussing the differences between bi-bi and TC. We are discussing the advantages/disadvantages of a first language choice.

You had stated that SEE is the mode most often used by TC program, and that's the reason why TC had it's disadvantages, You have not provide a source to back up your claim either, I had shown you that TC program does use the sign method of ASL too, not just SEE and you said they don't.

 

[imdeafsowhat]

But the girls aren't really excerising their opinion, they're just slamming the facts in our fact to, I'll do this, beacuse I like it, PWN us.

I have to say, I did bring the challenge and they wanted to counter it. Man, I don't wanna research anything, I wanna use my wolf and see how far we can go because it's much more fun and entertaining this way.

 

[jillio]

You had stated that SEE is the mode most often used by TC program, and that's the reason why TC had it's disadvantages, You have not provide a source to back up your claim either, I had shown you that TC program does use the sign method of ASL too, not just SEE and you said they don't.

Yes, Cheri, SEE is the mode used most often by TC programs. And it is only one of the reasons that TC has not been effective. You have not provided a source, you have provided a website. That is an entirely different thing. Over the years, I have provided numeorus sources. No need to continually repeat myself.

Please, find me a TC program that uses ASL as their mode of instruction.

ASL is not a sign method. It is a language.

 

[jillio]

Well, I would like to hear from faire_jour himself/herself.

She has already stated it. Perhaps you missed it, or perhaps you read it and just didn't understand what she was saying.

 

[rockdrummer]

Perhaps you should check into further resources and studies done regarding TC. Much research (and yes, it is out there and available to all) has shown that the sign language used in TC classrooms is not ASL, but at best, PSE. That provides a distorted language model.

Lack of standards as I have mentioned. Since you are not willing to provide specific citings then untill I have the time to find this information I will with all due respect, take your comments as opinion.

 

[imdeafsowhat]

Lack of standards as I have mentioned. Since you are not willing to provide specific citings then untill I have the time to find this information I will with all due respect, take your comments as opinion.

You mean, you don't believe jillio's "researched facts", dang. Jillio is gonna beat you up. Hahahaha.

Be brave!

 

[rockdrummer]

Cheri, I am well versed in the differences between Bi-Bi and TC. You are the one that appears to be confused regarding the two. Are you reading any of the links that you post? We are not discussing the differences between bi-bi and TC. We are discussing the advantages/disadvantages of a first language choice.

She provided the link to counterpoint a comment you made where you stated that sign language is not part of TC. I provided you a link that said otherwise and now she is providing an additional link that suggests otherwise.

Total Communication (TC)—Includes the use of all modes of communication—sign language (ASL or manually coded English), spoken language, mime, facial expression, gestures, etc.—to facilitate language development and communication. The intention of this methodology is to provide a child with any modality necessary to support the child in developing language. Its intention is not that all modalities be equally weighted and utilized for all children. The most common embodiment of TC, however, has become simultaneous communication. Simultaneous communication is the use of the spoken word simultaneously with the signed version of all or part of the spoken utterance. The signs used are usually an attempt to match the spoken message.
Source: Considerations for the Use of Sign Language for Children With Cochlear Implants--KidsWorld Deaf Net E-Doc--Gallaudet University's Laurent Clerc National Deaf Education Center