So, will the deaf culture be there?

[faire_jour]

Look at PFH...are you discounting him?

And dont bring up my job agian, do you understand? This is about the kids' well-being and I dont believe that oralism is the answer to literacy. I believe in giving BOTH is the answer. I still see tooo many children coming from the same programs you support with literacy and self-esteem problems.

You job is a huge point. Because you work in the place that you do, you have a skewed perspective, just like someone who works in an oral only school. You do not see the thirty kids who do well, just the three that end up transfering.

Do you have any response to the other issues that I brought up?

 

[Jiro]

the causes are consistent among deafies with bad english....

1. poor parental involvement
2. parents and teachers have audist attitude
3. subjecting them to adapt to lifestyle that does not work for them
4. they have a history of abuse and/or molestation
5. role models or key players (such as parents, siblings, mentor, etc) are not fluent enough to communicate with deaf child on more advanced level which is a crucial step to building a close-bond relationship and intellectual/emotional development
6. ........

 

[deafdyke]

Yes, thank you PFH and shel!!!!!!!
FJ, you really do not understand about how demographics and other stuff can impact test scores/results.
Also, bear in mind that the info deafgal linked to, is for the Dhh population as a WHOLE. That means oral only, ASL (and at least ASL has the excuse that English is a SECOND language, which means they approach English a la people who speak Spanish/French/etc as a first language. Remember ESLers have poor acheivement rates as well!) and other methodologies!
ALSO, just b/c those kids are now doing well, it doesn't mean that they will continue to do well. Wait til fourth grade and middle school. It is very common for kids to do well in early elementary grades and then start having signifcent issues. You're missing that shel and I (and many other posters here) were prolly classfied as doing well (both academicly and language wise) . You may also be missing that while their language and academic skills aren't HUGELY behind, their issues are more on a par that a Resource Room teacher or mainstream speech therapist can deal with! ..Remember oral only isn't new. There have ALWAYS been kids who have been near or on par. It doesn't mean that they will continue to do well down the line! . It is still very early on. As a matter of fact, it's likely that quite a few kids are struggling (not offically but it's still there) but a) the parents are being told that it's "normal" for a dhh kid to be a bit behind and b) dhh ed is "only" for voice off Deaf kids. (the same crap that shel and I got) Even hoh kids (and CI kids ARE hoh) struggle in the mainstream quite a bit.
In a related point, Grendel, RIGHT ON!!!!!! A CI (or hearing aid) isn't enough for many situtions.....Which is our point. We think that dhh kids have the right to BOTH worlds, instead of always lagging behind for whatever reason in the mainstream (and even the academic and language superstars have HUGE HUGE social emotional issues. If you don't believe me, go to the Clarke School Conference. A HUGE HUGE perhenial theme is social issues!

 

[deafdyke]

faire joure, I wouldn't say that. Shel said that ten of her new students who transfered last year did not know ASL at first (were very oral)

 

[shel90]

You job is a huge point. Because you work in the place that you do, you have a skewed perspective, just like someone who works in an oral only school. You do not see the thirty kids who do well, just the three that end up transfering.

Do you have any response to the other issues that I brought up?

FJ, you have no idea what I see out there. I have been actively involved with the Deaf community and Deaf education for 15 years. I see a lot more than you just stated.

 

[faire_jour]

FJ, you have no idea what I see out there. I have been actively involved with the Deaf community and Deaf education for 15 years. I see a lot more than you just stated.

And that is the whole point! The Deaf community does not represent the entirety of deaf people. There are millions of people with hearing loss that do NOT participate in the Deaf community. They live among hearing people, consider themselves a part of the hearing community, not the Deaf community. Again, if you take into account only the perspective of those active in the Deaf community, you have a skewed demographic.

 

[Jiro]

And that is the whole point! The Deaf community does not represent the entirety of deaf people. There are millions of people with hearing loss that do NOT participate in the Deaf community. They live among hearing people, consider themselves a part of the hearing community, not the Deaf community. Again, if you take into account only the perspective of those active in the Deaf community, you have a skewed demographic.

what about you?

 

[deafgal001]

And at my daughter's school, they started with 30 kids in her age group and all but three have hit age appropriate in language and academics and have been mainstreamed.

Also, our bi-bi school has not had a transfer for 3 years. The kids are succeeding.

What I seen is most of these kids have parents who are heavily involve. Again. parental involvement is the key. Also, i've seen parents who is like "I did my best " and shrugs when oral route don't work out for them and rarely have the motivation to learn ASL to help their child to succeed.

 

[faire_jour]

what about you?

I have seen both sides. I have seen very successful deaf people who use ASL and who are oral. I know deaf people who have "failed" using both methods too. I know deaf adults who grew up orally and hated it, and I know deaf adults who grew up orally, loved it, and now advocate for oralism for other kids. I even know two deaf adults who grew up oral, learned ASL and then still advocate for oral options. I know kids who were implanted at a very young age, and grew up orally and are doing amazing. (I don't know of any off hand that were implanted at a very young age and grew up orally, and were unable to learn spoken language, but that could change.)

I believe that there is no "one size" and that no one thing will cure the ails of deaf education.

 

[Jiro]

I have seen both sides. I have seen very successful deaf people who use ASL and who are oral. I know deaf people who have "failed" using both methods too. I know deaf adults who grew up orally and hated it, and I know deaf adults who grew up orally, loved it, and now advocate for oralism for other kids. I even know two deaf adults who grew up oral, learned ASL and then still advocate for oral options. I know kids who were implanted at a very young age, and grew up orally and are doing amazing. (I don't know of any off hand that were implanted at a very young age and grew up orally, and were unable to learn spoken language, but that could change.)

I see... You have "seen" it..... but we have lived it.

I believe that there is no "one size" and that no one thing will cure the ails of deaf education.

true but there is a consistent pattern... as listed in my post above.

 

[faire_jour]

I see... You have "seen" it..... but we have lived it.


true but there is a consistent pattern... as listed in my post above.

And someone throws the "you're hearing so your opinion doesn't matter" flag.....:roll:

 

[shel90]

I have seen both sides. I have seen very successful deaf people who use ASL and who are oral. I know deaf people who have "failed" using both methods too. I know deaf adults who grew up orally and hated it, and I know deaf adults who grew up orally, loved it, and now advocate for oralism for other kids. I even know two deaf adults who grew up oral, learned ASL and then still advocate for oral options. I know kids who were implanted at a very young age, and grew up orally and are doing amazing. (I don't know of any off hand that were implanted at a very young age and grew up orally, and were unable to learn spoken language, but that could change.)

I believe that there is no "one size" and that no one thing will cure the ails of deaf education.

hence the need to give all deaf/hh BOTH not just one or the other.

Besides, I thought we were talking about Deaf culture here hence my reason stating my experience with the Deaf culture. Who says that I havent seen the other side?

 

[shel90]

And someone throws the "you're hearing so your opinion doesn't matter" flag.....:roll:

Have you lived life as a deaf person? Do you honestly know what it is like?

 

[Jiro]

And someone throws the "you're hearing so your opinion doesn't matter" flag.....:roll:

never said your opinion doesn't matter but just showing you the erroneous logic behind your posts toward shel.

 

[posts from hell]

So true.

For example, there is an oral school in Oregon that has an 85% college graduation rate (Yes, they tract their kids all the way through college). Clearly those kids are not failing and ending up with a 4th grade reading level.

I have seen residential Deaf school people (from age 18 months) who can barely read and I have seen ASL users who read and write WAY better than me!

I'm happy these oral people are doing well educationally. Are they doing well spiritually??? Show me the research on that.

In case you haven't noticed... Many people come on here that are oral are having issues. They are stuck in between worlds. I could easily show you threads, but since they are still on top pages of forums in here... I dont need to.

 

[deafgal001]

And someone throws the "you're hearing so your opinion doesn't matter" flag.....:roll:

If they keep looking at deaf people from the outside surface like how well they speak or anything related to hearing loss... yeah, their opinion don't matter to me.

 

[whatdidyousay!]

I thought I had the thread and can't seem to find it here. So I created another thread.

Do you think that Deaf Culture will be there in the future like 20 to 30 years or 100 or millions years?

Almost every babies being implanted, in the world who happen to be in the hearing world. and will they have their immersion of being part of the Deaf Culture? LIke they have deaf people souls of having their own deaf culture, like black people have their souls

just wonder.

in a Million years there may not be any life on earth , man may being living on another planet or there could be another ice age.

 

[Bebonang]

And that is the whole point! The Deaf community does not represent the entirety of deaf people. There are millions of people with hearing loss that do NOT participate in the Deaf community. They live among hearing people, consider themselves a part of the hearing community, not the Deaf community. Again, if you take into account only the perspective of those active in the Deaf community, you have a skewed demographic.

That is a very audist statement that you made. You have a weird way of telling us that you want every d/Deaf and Hard of Hearing people to go into the hearing world and communicate orally with hearing people 24/7 which we are not comfortable. You are just a hearing person who does not know nothing about our deafness and the suffering we all had to endured. You are way off base.

 

[faire_jour]

Have you lived life as a deaf person? Do you honestly know what it is like?

I am the ONLY person who can make the choices for my child. Sorry that I am hearing, but there isn't a damn thing that I or the other 95% of parents can do about it. Do we need to have our children taken away and re-homed to Deaf people because we "haven't lived it"?

OR, can we be trusted to make loving, informed decisions for OUR children (not your children) even if we disagree with you?

 

[shel90]

If they keep looking at deaf people from the outside surface like how well they speak or anything related to hearing loss... yeah, their opinion don't matter to me.

Good point. That's another way of looking at it.