So-called Terps- Sending Deaf PPL to Hell

[jillio]

Actually, Stokoe did know ASL when he developed SEE. As a matter of fact, the teacher that I am referring to knew Stokoe on a professional level. And, if you did your research correctly you would know that there were certifications in sign language and deaf history. Now it has changed to a "terps" certification which technically gives the "terp" the ability to sign exactly what the other person is saying. The key word being exactly. That is an interpreters job. Its not to change the words to fit what they want because that's exactly what's being done. For example, the church setting. Its said not to change the word of God or you are punished and sent to hell. "Terps" do exactly that with their gestures. And as far as getting sued, I do not interpret professionally, only for my wife. But I do know signers that freelance in courts and hospitals. Signers and "terps" are different. And there is more of a chance of a deaf person missing what was said with your current version of ASL than with word for word. You cannot get the full advantage of comprehending what is said with the "cut up" version. The gestures and everything may look nice and beautiful, but its primitive. The deaf world is going backwards. They began that way and then developed and grew and now they're going back down the same road. If you talk to any old school deaf people and ask them to sign real ASL as they knew it from their time, they will sign word for word if they are educated. That's because the education system focused on that so deaf people would have better jobs and better lives. Not having to depend on ssi or ssd. Another example is the sign for "what for". Experienced deaf people signed so fast that the people watching them got it confused. If you pay attention to the original sign for that it starts with a full "what for". Then the what started getting towards the forehead. Then it was so rapid that it looked like the person was saying "for for". Really, that is "what for" but its being taken the wrong way. That's the same as people saying that there is no "is, am, are". That's another ridiculous statement. That is the index finger to the mouth and brought straight out. Not curved like true or real and not Stokoe's pinky finger out. And in another sense, if you have the sentence "I'm going to the mall", a hearing person has the contraction of I'm. It is understood in true sign language that the conjunction is included in I. So really the deaf person is not saying "I going to the mall", its "I'm". Its just not understood on the "terps" side. Deaf people believe that they are getting quality service with a "terp" but really they're getting the "terps" words, not the speakers. And I am fully ready to defend what I said. I would actually be more than happy to get a meeting going and have a debate over this.

If a terp's job was to sign every word that is said, it would be called transliterating, not intepreting. You are really off base.

 

[jillio]

Ok Tousi, if I'm spewing nonsense so much then why is it so difficult to get a straight forward answer. Because none of you have legitimate 1s. Ask any professional deaf person in the field of deaf ed and they will tell you. And remember to ask a deaf person, not a hearing, because hearing people don't fully comprehend this situation.

You are hearing. Quite obviously, you don't comprehend the issue at all. And how do you know that Tousi is not a deaf person involved in deaf ed?

 

[jillio]

I am not getting mad about puerto rico. I could care less. And my wife is right here with laughing at this. She knows the bullshit interpreters try to pull. And it was obvious that you were thinking ASL is non-verbal. That is the common belief with uneducated interpreters. I am not saying I am the smartest person in this field. But facts are facts. There is no denying them. You just fail to look at them. You are going by what you are taught. Ask any person over 50 how ASL was and they will tell you ASL is English word for word originally.

Yes, facts are facts. And to date, you have come up with none.

 

[jillio]

I'm curious, is ASL verbal or non-verbal communication?

ASL is non-verbal communication. It is manual, conceptually based, and visual and spatial.

 

[jillio]

"...At court, I sign word for word no problem with my wife. Same at the doctors...."

WHAT!!!??? :-o

Agreed!!!! I see not only a violation of the ADA, but an ethics breach as well.

 

[jillio]

How can ASL be a different language and still be put into English word order.

And by the way, ASL is verbal communication believe it or not. You people that try to argue the subject always get stuck on this part. And I am full of shit? Please. You listen to the Interpreter trainers a little too much. Look up the word verbal. It means "of or pertaining to words" and if you think ASL has its own word order, it has to be verbal communication because you cannot have word order without words. Non-verbal means no words. It is obvious that you don't know what the word verbal means. It doesn't mean vocal like you're thinking. A baby's babbling is vocal but not verbal.

And is being in Puerto Rico supposed to be something special. I go down there for months with my wife. Nothing special that you have to put it out there. This is the excuse of a typical assinine person who wants to believe the bullshit thats coming out of their mouths. I guess I ain't so full of shit.

Your knowledge of linguistics is totally absent. ASL in English word order no longer is ASL. It is not English, either. It is a pidgin language. Therefore, it does not qualify as a separate language at all.

SEE1 and SEE2 are English.

ASL does not use words. It uses manual symbols in the same way that verbal languages use oral symbols, or written symbols. A simple is nothing more than a representation of a concept.

ASL does not have its own word order. It has, however, its own syntax and grammar rules. It does not have its own word order because it does not have words. It has to be translated into English equlivalent of a word through interpretation of the concept.


A baby's babbling is pre-verbal, and is related to spoken language in that baby's only babble in those particular vowel/consonant combinations which ar specific to the mother tongue.

It is quite obvious that you need to back off with the opinions and do some studying.

 

[truesign]

Syntax means word order and yes all are symbols even oral. However, ask a deaf person to fingerspell chair. They will not draw a concept. He will spell C H A I R.

ASL cannot be non-verbal. Syntax is word order which is verbal.

 

[fredfam1]

Syntax means word order and yes all are symbols even oral. However, ask a deaf person to fingerspell chair. They will not draw a concept. He will spell C H A I R.

ASL cannot be non-verbal. Syntax is word order which is verbal.

Maybe it should be relabled. How about Symtax? Sym = Symbol Because ASL syntax is really symbol order NOT word order. AND if a Deaf person spells chair for you he is doing it to accomodate you. Other wise he wouldn't even bother because it means nothing to him. He knows what it means to you because he happens to be intelligent.

 

[Reba]

I'm sorry. This is my first time posting here but everything I have read so far is an ongoing issue.

I'm curious. Why did you pick this particular thread for your first posting?

My wife is deaf and I have been with her for 3 years.

Prior to taking ASL courses, how did you and your wife communicate? Did she teach you some signs before you took courses? When signing with other deafies does your wife use ASL or signed English?

I taught myself sign at first online at asl.com. I then followed up with a few courses. However, everyone is getting this big misconception of sign.

At what stage of your learning did you come to that conclusion?

I was taught by the only Sign Language certified teacher in New Jersey. I see all these talks about ASL vs. English and a lot of people don't realize that ASL is English. If you take a look at old videos from Gallaudet University or even watch "The Heart is a Lonely Hunter", they show word for word signing.

Sign language, like spoken languages, changes over time, and is presented differently depending on a setting's register.

Guess what? The Heart is a Lonely Hunter is a fictional movie. The "deaf" star, Alan Arkin (one of my favorite actors) is hearing. When I was a teenager and wrote him a letter about his role in that movie, he wrote back to me in his own hand (he wasn't such a big star back then) and told me how he just learned enough sign for that role. Otherwise, he knew nothing about sign language.

... These radical deaf people are the kind that are screwing everything up for the others.

Radicalism on either side of a controversy is probably not the best representation of a position.

Using todays form of ASL between deaf people is fully understandable. But "terps" begin using that in formal settings and that screws everthing up.

Community terps use whatever language the client requests.

That's why the education level of deaf kids these days are very low.

Not necessarily. If you've noticed, the education level in general has declined in recent decades.


[Got to go to work now; more later.]

 

[jillio]

Syntax means word order and yes all are symbols even oral. However, ask a deaf person to fingerspell chair. They will not draw a concept. He will spell C H A I R.

ASL cannot be non-verbal. Syntax is word order which is verbal.

No, syntax does not mean word order. I suggest you consult a linguisitics 101 text. In addition, you might check out the definition of fallicious argument. Your posts are full of them.

 

[shel90]

I'm sorry. This is my first time posting here but everything I have read so far is an ongoing issue. My wife is deaf and I have been with her for 3 years. I taught myself sign at first online at asl.com. I then followed up with a few courses. However, everyone is getting this big misconception of sign. I was taught by the only Sign Language certified teacher in New Jersey. I see all these talks about ASL vs. English and a lot of people don't realize that ASL is English. If you take a look at old videos from Gallaudet University or even watch "The Heart is a Lonely Hunter", they show word for word signing. Not these "signs" we see today. A lot of deaf say that that is their way of communicating and to leave it alone. These radical deaf people are the kind that are screwing everything up for the others. Using todays form of ASL between deaf people is fully understandable. But "terps" begin using that in formal settings and that screws everthing up. That's why the education level of deaf kids these days are very low. The whole structure of signing is falling apart and its sad because that is the only means of communication for a lot of people. Its going to get to the point where deaf people won't be able to understand each other. "Terps" use their actions to keep the interests of deaf people. Those are gestures, not signs. True sign language has a sign for practically every word in the English language. That's how sign language was originally developed. There are 4 ways of English communication. You have oral, written, sign, and braille. People saying that sign is a completely different language are ridiculous. That's like saying braille is a different language. And ASL is not deaf culture so please don't bring that up. Deaf culture originated with word for word signing. I am not speaking of SEE signs. As a matter of fact, Stokoe signed word for word before he made up SEE signs. I have no problem with deaf people contracting ASL to make it easier to communicate between themselves, its when it goes into a formal environment and being handed off as sign that it bothers me. Deaf kids have a problem writing English because they don't get English in an English class. My wife was in a college with a deaf program and the "terp" had the nerve to contract what the English teacher was saying. How can someone learn English if they are not getting what was said word for word. I'm not saying that its easy to interpret. I know its difficult. But the problem is the effort put into it. A lot of "terps" are lazy. I signed in my wife's church word for word. I slipped here and there. But that was my first time signing for a group of deaf people. At court, I sign word for word no problem with my wife. Same at the doctors. If the effort is there then it can be done. But "terps" throw it off with their excuses and then suck deaf people into it by saying ASL is so beautiful. I'm not saying its not, but every language is beautiful in its own way. But that excuse is used as a method of deferring a debate. The moment a "terp" gets into a debate with a true signer, a person who is certified in deaf history and sign language, they turn to a deaf person and start using that excuse. Its pathetic. The only way to pull the deaf community into a good standing is to have them learn real sign language once again. The way it was taught years ago. And in regards to a lot of the books that "terps" learn from, most are written by people who signed word for word before the book and they tried changing it to their own way, or they were written by people who have no experience in the deaf field.

All totally false statements about ASL, Stokoe, Deaf culture, and terps. Wow!

 

[shel90]

QUOTE=truesign;916714]Actually, Stokoe did know ASL when he developed SEE. As a matter of fact, the teacher that I am referring to knew Stokoe on a professional level. And, if you did your research correctly you would know that there were certifications in sign language and deaf history. Now it has changed to a "terps" certification which technically gives the "terp" the ability to sign exactly what the other person is saying. The key word being exactly. That is an interpreters job. Its not to change the words to fit what they want because that's exactly what's being done. For example, the church setting. Its said not to change the word of God or you are punished and sent to hell. "Terps" do exactly that with their gestures. And as far as getting sued, I do not interpret professionally, only for my wife. But I do know signers that freelance in courts and hospitals. Signers and "terps" are different. And there is more of a chance of a deaf person missing what was said with your current version of ASL than with word for word. You cannot get the full advantage of comprehending what is said with the "cut up" version. The gestures and everything may look nice and beautiful, but its primitive. The deaf world is going backwards. They began that way and then developed and grew and now they're going back down the same road. If you talk to any old school deaf people and ask them to sign real ASL as they knew it from their time, they will sign word for word if they are educated. That's because the education system focused on that so deaf people would have better jobs and better lives. Not having to depend on ssi or ssd. Another example is the sign for "what for". Experienced deaf people signed so fast that the people watching them got it confused. If you pay attention to the original sign for that it starts with a full "what for". Then the what started getting towards the forehead. Then it was so rapid that it looked like the person was saying "for for". Really, that is "what for" but its being taken the wrong way. That's the same as people saying that there is no "is, am, are". That's another ridiculous statement. That is the index finger to the mouth and brought straight out. Not curved like true or real and not Stokoe's pinky finger out. And in another sense, if you have the sentence "I'm going to the mall", a hearing person has the contraction of I'm. It is understood in true sign language that the conjunction is included in I. So really the deaf person is not saying "I going to the mall", its "I'm". Its just not understood on the "terps" side. Deaf people believe that they are getting quality service with a "terp" but really they're getting the "terps" words, not the speakers. And I am fully ready to defend what I said. I would actually be more than happy to get a meeting going and have a debate over this.[/QUOTE]


ASL is the cut-up version??? OH my,...

 

[shel90]

I went back to school because I never finished my degree after I graduated high school. It has nothing to do with whether I'm "still learning" about the deaf community. I've been involved in this community for 23 years, but of course I am still learning. If you're not still learning, then your mind is rotting. Care to drop any names of those people you've been working with? I'd love to know who's putting those ideas into your head.

I have CI/CT because I speak both ASL and Signed English. I am qualified to work with your wife, who uses English word order, and with the majority of the signing deaf population, who use ASL. Why bother having it? So I can serve as many people as possible, not because I think Signed English is better than ASL. That's why I have both...because they are equally valuable.

You clearly know nothing about the history of the deaf community, the history and use of ASL, the profession of interpreting, or deaf culture. Why are you even here? You must be trolling, because nobody in their right mind would come onto AllDeaf with opinions like yours.

 

[shel90]

I am not getting mad about puerto rico. I could care less. And my wife is right here with laughing at this. She knows the bullshit interpreters try to pull. And it was obvious that you were thinking ASL is non-verbal. That is the common belief with uneducated interpreters. I am not saying I am the smartest person in this field. But facts are facts. There is no denying them. You just fail to look at them. You are going by what you are taught. Ask any person over 50 how ASL was and they will tell you ASL is English word for word originally.

I have many deaf friends and co-workers who are over 50 years old and they dont sign SEE. They sign in ASL.

 

[shel90]

Ok Tousi, if I'm spewing nonsense so much then why is it so difficult to get a straight forward answer. Because none of you have legitimate 1s. Ask any professional deaf person in the field of deaf ed and they will tell you. And remember to ask a deaf person, not a hearing, because hearing people don't fully comprehend this situation.

I am a deaf person in the field of deaf education and all the stuff you said were completely wrong.

 

[deafskeptic]

When I read Truesign's posts, I can't believe this guy. His posts are so full of misinformation that I don't know where to start.

 

[jillio]

When I read Truesign's posts, I can't believe this guy. His posts are so full of misinformation that I don't know where to start.

Just start at the beginning and go all the way to the end. Its all wrong!

 

[RedFox]

English grammar: ASL is not English because it has a different grammar.

My attempt to show ASL grammar: ASL not English why? grammar different

Did I get the ASL grammar right? I used primary English and pidgin signing in public school and at RIT.

 

[jasin]

You're right. I jumped ahead of myself. Stokoe went into Gallaudet and learned sign on the job using American Signs in English order. When linguistic rules were established, it did not include signing in the "think tank". So, Stokoe misunderstood what was being signed. He knew some ASL in English order but didn't know the contractions.

Courts require Verbatim, which is word for word signing, and it is unethical to interpret because you are being paternalistic by explaining rather than quoting the judge. It is the judge's job to explain himself. "Terps" are not certified in law.

English was never forced down the deaf's throats. It began as English.
ASLTA is affiliated with NAD, which is a national organization for certifying national sign teachers.

Now what is sign language? I'm not talking about ASL, just sign language.

Another question, is Anthony's SEE I a seperate language from SEE II? Now there are 2 different English languages?

Also, I am not saying that terps are evil, just mistaught.

Asl is not English, but, asl can be translated or transliterated into English even though its never exact. Interpreters do it for us all the time. Asl is spatial, the grammar is entirely spatial, unlike English.

Please learn the difference between Asl and English!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[LuciaDisturbed]

Fuck church. You won't go to hell for not going to church. I do not think you need church in order to have religion. Why don't you just do it on your own?

Church is boring anyway. Besides, all they do nowadays is do everything they can do to humiliate you in every way possible. Their goal is to make you feel bad about yourself. Why put yourself through that kind of shit? It's not necessary.