Sign Language

Hearing parents, to sign or not to sign

This argument has been ongoing for many years, especially with the development of new hearing devices, CIs and modern systems of manual communications.

Within the deaf & HI communities, there has been an ongoing battle between those who are profoundly deaf and those who are (only) hard of hearing.

Observing that there is a "pecking order", there are some (not all) of the profoundly deaf who are envious of those with hearing and speech, those who can weave their lives in both worlds. The jealousy level is high, vociferous and even vicious.

Then when we observe English comprehension and fluency, most of the prelingually deaf adults read, write and comprehend English at the 2nd-4th
grade level. This, is classified as "illiteracy", which hinders educational and employment opportunities.

Both of my children rank very high in English fluency and both do operate well within the predominately hearing world, even being accepted in both worlds.

To demand that someone has to be limited, by parents or society, by their choice of sign methodologies or ancillary hearing devices seems (to me) to be "self serving, narrow minded and bigoted".

I want more than "just getting by" for my family and friends. Don't you?

Alas, "Everyone to their own taste, said the old lady as she licked the cow".

Let's hear your rebuttal. The world is lQQking.
 
Hammond Ham said:
This argument has been ongoing for many years, especially with the development of new hearing devices, CIs and modern systems of manual communications.

Within the deaf & HI communities, there has been an ongoing battle between those who are profoundly deaf and those who are (only) hard of hearing.

Observing that there is a "pecking order", there are some (not all) of the profoundly deaf who are envious of those with hearing and speech, those who can weave their lives in both worlds. The jealousy level is high, vociferous and even vicious.

Then when we observe English comprehension and fluency, most of the prelingually deaf adults read, write and comprehend English at the 2nd-4th
grade level. This, is classified as "illiteracy", which hinders educational and employment opportunities.

Both of my children rank very high in English fluency and both do operate well within the predominately hearing world, even being accepted in both worlds.

To demand that someone has to be limited, by parents or society, by their choice of sign methodologies or ancillary hearing devices seems (to me) to be "self serving, narrow minded and bigoted".

I want more than "just getting by" for my family and friends. Don't you?

Alas, "Everyone to their own taste, said the old lady as she licked the cow".

Let's hear your rebuttal. The world is lQQking.
Click to expand...

What do you want rebutted?

I have extremely high English fluency, and don't operate particularly well in either world.

I am certainly prelingual. I know quite a few people who are very fluent in English.

Or were you just wanting to set your children on a pedestal?

I am not sure of the point of your post. :hmm:
 
Hammond Ham said:
This argument has been ongoing for many years, especially with the development of new hearing devices, CIs and modern systems of manual communications.

Within the deaf & HI communities, there has been an ongoing battle between those who are profoundly deaf and those who are (only) hard of hearing.

Observing that there is a "pecking order", there are some (not all) of the profoundly deaf who are envious of those with hearing and speech, those who can weave their lives in both worlds. The jealousy level is high, vociferous and even vicious.

Then when we observe English comprehension and fluency, most of the prelingually deaf adults read, write and comprehend English at the 2nd-4th
grade level. This, is classified as "illiteracy", which hinders educational and employment opportunities.

Both of my children rank very high in English fluency and both do operate well within the predominately hearing world, even being accepted in both worlds.

To demand that someone has to be limited, by parents or society, by their choice of sign methodologies or ancillary hearing devices seems (to me) to be "self serving, narrow minded and bigoted".

I want more than "just getting by" for my family and friends. Don't you?

Alas, "Everyone to their own taste, said the old lady as she licked the cow".

Let's hear your rebuttal. The world is lQQking.
Click to expand...

You sound totally like one of my brothers, but he is not as old as you mentioned in another thread, and his children have no hearing loss.

His kids were "always better" than everybody else. I am glad your children are doing well. I have no choice but to "get by". I am trying to learn ASL, but time is a factor and I have so many other obligations going on that I will not mention again. My children have mild losses, and my son's could be helped with a HA, but he won't wear them (he is 15). My daughter's type of hearing issues are not helped by anything. Her ear wasn't formed right. I have no ear drums and am losing my cochlea, so I have nothing to help me. We "get by" and it's worked for us. Yes there are issues, but we are for the most part happy and well adjusted. That's more than I can say for a few people I know.
 
Claire Menzies said:
:deaf:I am sick and tired of seeing Deaf Children, and Adults wearing cochlear Implants, hearing parents stop taking away what is rightfully there's the Deaf World, the right for them to sign...

Sign Language is recognised language, it's a beautiful language.

Hearing Parents of Deaf Children are destroying the Deaf World!

The next person that approaches me saying "I wish I could sign" I shall scream. Well go and learn, stop pussy footing about.

I am very proud to be apart of the Deaf World. :deaf:
Click to expand...
You really should stop generalizing and lumping all hearing parents into one group. Also the CI has been very successful for many deaf children just as it has provided no benefit for others. Who are you or anyone else to say what is right or wrong for a parent to do for their own child.
 
I wonder if Clarie Menzies is thinking "Wow, I make one comment at 15 people around the world are already angry! I feel like I have so much power over their minds... THE ABSOLUTE POWER!!!"
 
Daredevel7 said:
I wonder if Clarie Menzies is thinking "Wow, I make one comment at 15 people around the world are already angry! I feel like I have so much power over their minds... THE ABSOLUTE POWER!!!"
Click to expand...

ha. OP has not yet returned to it!
 
Daredevel7 said:
I wonder if Clarie Menzies is thinking "Wow, I make one comment at 15 people around the world are already angry! I feel like I have so much power over their minds... THE ABSOLUTE POWER!!!"
Click to expand...

Try to keep up!

We have already trained our anger in a different direction! :lol:
 
Daredevel7 said:
I wonder if Clarie Menzies is thinking "Wow, I make one comment at 15 people around the world are already angry! I feel like I have so much power over their minds... THE ABSOLUTE POWER!!!"
Click to expand...

Yep, the absolute power! More power to the OP in pissing off people. :lol:
 
I don't think there's anything wrong with wearing an implant. When they grow up they can decide what they want to do. Why, they should have the right to be exposed to the implant, and make the decision later if they want to keep it or not.
 
mistercristofer said:
I don't think there's anything wrong with wearing an implant. When they grow up they can decide what they want to do. Why, they should have the right to be exposed to the implant, and make the decision later if they want to keep it or not.
Click to expand...
Either way, a decision has to be made for the child by the parent.
 
Hammond Ham said:
This argument has been ongoing for many years, especially with the development of new hearing devices, CIs and modern systems of manual communications.

Within the deaf & HI communities, there has been an ongoing battle between those who are profoundly deaf and those who are (only) hard of hearing.

Observing that there is a "pecking order", there are some (not all) of the profoundly deaf who are envious of those with hearing and speech, those who can weave their lives in both worlds. The jealousy level is high, vociferous and even vicious.

Then when we observe English comprehension and fluency, most of the prelingually deaf adults read, write and comprehend English at the 2nd-4th
grade level. This, is classified as "illiteracy", which hinders educational and employment opportunities.

Both of my children rank very high in English fluency and both do operate well within the predominately hearing world, even being accepted in both worlds.

To demand that someone has to be limited, by parents or society, by their choice of sign methodologies or ancillary hearing devices seems (to me) to be "self serving, narrow minded and bigoted".

I want more than "just getting by" for my family and friends. Don't you?

Alas, "Everyone to their own taste, said the old lady as she licked the cow".

Let's hear your rebuttal. The world is lQQking.
Click to expand...


Not sure where to start...

First, the use of hearing aids, CI or any other assitive device is wholy the choice of the users - and should be respected as such. For infants and children who use HA(s) or CI(s) because their parents have deemed it so ... while they do have to obey for a certain time .. there is a point at which the choice belongs to the individual ... generally society sees children of 13years and older of being of developmental age to begin making choices for themselves. Certainly by the age of 16 or 18 a child should have a huge (if not total) input into if the device provides enough benefit to justify use - and their opinion should be respected.

Regarding HH's post...
For anyone who doesn't already know that I was born profoundly deaf on my right side (+120db for anyone who cares) and with what we believed to be normal hearing on my left. My hearing on my left became mild HL, then mild/mod fluctuating loss peri-lingually. Because of numerous ear infections which severely (albeit temporarily) impacted my hearing on the left side, there were many points in my early years where I was bilaterally, functionally deaf. My hearing loss, or at least the extent of it wasn't formally diagnosed until I was 4 or 5 years of age (even though I had significant loss). Although I had slightly "muddy" speech, I was actually quite advanced for my age ... and once I was able to learn to read English independent of "listening" (phonetics etc which was the method of choice in Kindergarten etc) I became a book worm, through and though.

Although my parents and audiologists wanted to place me firmly in the hearing world - I always knew that it wasn't where I should naturally be. I stated teaching myself SEE (I and II) via the many books and resources that were available (my mum worked as an EA in a school with many SEE using children some Hoh, some deaf some hearing with speech issues). After learning a conversationally fluent amount of SEE (which always struck me as overly awkward and less connected to English than the "experts" seemed to want it to be) I started learning ASL ... which instantly made more sense as a means of communicating (anything other than specific linguistic concepts in the classroom perhaps).

Although I was very interested in signing, my parents had been deluded into the belief that the only way I'd be successful is if I used only spoken/speechread and written language (something my audiologists who I've worked with my entire life, now admit was horribly misguided). I continued to improve my English, French and ASL (vocab and basic grammar) as well as my other subjects - and was in advanced classes throughout jr high, and high school (IB program). I graduated High school with honours and then went to College in the USA where I graduated top of my class with a 3.999 GPA (missed a single answer on one test throughout the year).

When I arrived back home, I finally was able to sign up for ASL classes "proper" and thrived ... ASL classes not only improved my ASL skills, but also my English (and French) because for the first time various concepts where made visually available to me - my ASL teachers where able to help me grasp some English concepts that my hearing English teachers had been unable to make clear ... largely because so many words/parts of speech, verb conjugations etc sound identical to me... and hearing people (for the most part) aren't able to understand the various barriers that can place in language acquisition and find a way to make it clear in a way that makes sense without relaying on sound, and hearing etc.

I'm a clear example of someone who has benefited tremendously from the use of ASL as a means of learning and improving my English (and French) - and I'm not alone.

The benefit I gained was made abundantly clear when I went back to university/theological college a few years ago ... The first year I had ASL interpreters for half of my classes and the difference in made was AMAZING. In my non-interpreted classes I basically listened/speechread very carefully, wasn't able to participate and left class exhausted, however in my interpreted classes, for the first time I was able to not only fully understand what was being said in class, but also be able to actively participate - instead of going home exhausted, I went home energized ... even my profs commented on how much more involved I was in my interpreted classes (needless to say I had interpreters for all the classes, lectures, and extracurricular seminars etc from that point on)


One statistic that is constantly tossed around is the 3rd & 4th grade reading level that is "common for deaf individuals in English speaking countries"... of course people conveniently fail to mention that the average reading level of HEARING persons in the same area is only a 5th or 6th grade level. (Having come from a family of teachers: father 40+years experience, sister, cousins etc - they ALL state this to be fact ... they're absolutely appalled by the reading level of many of their students (elementary, jr high, high school & college/university). If you think English is bad, you should see the results of reading levels for students taking a second/third language from kindergarten through high school (so 12years of study) ... these students often fall BELOW the 3rd year reading level - which is horrifying considering the hours put in.

I am forced to spend a great deal of time in the hearing world ... my family is hearing (they've all learned a bit of sign, and my niece is being raised quadra-lingual - including ASL) however I will ALWAYS be more comfortable in the Deaf world. I have never ever even for a second been told by ANYONE who is Deaf that I'm "not Deaf enough" or that I don't "belong" in the Deaf Community ... the only people I've EVER heard that from ... are HEARING people, who seem to think I'm "cheating" somehow.
In the Deaf world I am completely accepted, encouraged to participate, welcomed with open arms. I've never heard of a Deaf person being "jealous of a Hoh person" ( I suppose it happens, in the way some people may wish they had a different colour eyes or skin, but that's a personal issue, not a hoh& d/Deaf issue). I do know a number of Hoh people who wish they themselves were more deaf (mainly people with similar hearing to myself who are completely deaf on one side and Hoh on the other ... just Hoh enough to catch speech, but too Hoh to be comfortable in a speech only environment). Living in the middle is a very difficult path, (& politely intended) and hearing people have no clue just how difficult it really is. In the Deaf world I have full access to communication, to friendship, to understanding ... in the hearing world, I'm partly shut out even when hearing people don't think I am.

While reading and writing English (or French, German, Lao, Cree etc) is very important - it allows access to education, employment, and people who may not speak my language ... but being able to easily communicate with PEOPLE in a natural way, (which for the deaf is visually) is far more important to ones mental well being (and SEE is not a natural form of communication ... it may appear so for hearing people, but not for those who access language visually - because SEE is a clumsy, awkward means of relaying a completely different language (which was never intended to be manually reproduced).

One thing that Hoh and Deaf ASL (and other sign language) users need to realize is that most (fortunately not all) hearing people are unaware of the subtlety and complexity that ASL (BSL/NZSL etc) contains in the hands of a skilled user ... unless a hearing person in fluent in a "native manner" (CODAs etc)having learned ASL as young children who's brains are still developing language ... they may never be able to get past comparing ASL/BSL/NZSL/Auslan to English, LSQ/LSF to French etc ... they may never be able to appreciate it as a unique, "stand alone language" that doesn't need to be "propped up" or compared to something else ... and nor should it be, any more than English should be compared to French, Japanese to Chinese, German to Croatian etc. It is their loss.


I realize that this post is dealing with a number of different concepts all at once, which makes it a bit incongruent at points (it's also 4am and I've yet to get any sleep).. however I wanted to briefly address a few of the points made in HH's post.


incidentally - for those living in the USA, please note that I tend to use Canadian/British spelling for words, however because I did live in the USA (and take English Classes there as well), I do occasionally slip from Canadian/British English into USA English (o/ou, e/oe/œ, ll/l, s/ss, r/rr, ise/ize etc)- I'm aware of it, I simply don't feel it's worth fussing over too terribly much ... so before thinking "urgh, she can't spell" keep in mind that English spelling varies from country to country.
 
Anij said:
Not sure where to start...

First, the use of hearing aids, CI or any other assitive device is wholy the choice of the users - and should be respected as such. For infants and children who use HA(s) or CI(s) because their parents have deemed it so ... while they do have to obey for a certain time .. there is a point at which the choice belongs to the individual ... generally society sees children of 13years and older of being of developmental age to begin making choices for themselves. Certainly by the age of 16 or 18 a child should have a huge (if not total) input into if the device provides enough benefit to justify use - and their opinion should be respected.

Regarding HH's post...
For anyone who doesn't already know that I was born profoundly deaf on my right side (+120db for anyone who cares) and with what we believed to be normal hearing on my left. My hearing on my left became mild HL, then mild/mod fluctuating loss peri-lingually. Because of numerous ear infections which severely (albeit temporarily) impacted my hearing on the left side, there were many points in my early years where I was bilaterally, functionally deaf. My hearing loss, or at least the extent of it wasn't formally diagnosed until I was 4 or 5 years of age (even though I had significant loss). Although I had slightly "muddy" speech, I was actually quite advanced for my age ... and once I was able to learn to read English independent of "listening" (phonetics etc which was the method of choice in Kindergarten etc) I became a book worm, through and though.

Although my parents and audiologists wanted to place me firmly in the hearing world - I always knew that it wasn't where I should naturally be. I stated teaching myself SEE (I and II) via the many books and resources that were available (my mum worked as an EA in a school with many SEE using children some Hoh, some deaf some hearing with speech issues). After learning a conversationally fluent amount of SEE (which always struck me as overly awkward and less connected to English than the "experts" seemed to want it to be) I started learning ASL ... which instantly made more sense as a means of communicating (anything other than specific linguistic concepts in the classroom perhaps).

Although I was very interested in signing, my parents had been deluded into the belief that the only way I'd be successful is if I used only spoken/speechread and written language (something my audiologists who I've worked with my entire life, now admit was horribly misguided). I continued to improve my English, French and ASL (vocab and basic grammar) as well as my other subjects - and was in advanced classes throughout jr high, and high school (IB program). I graduated High school with honours and then went to College in the USA where I graduated top of my class with a 3.999 GPA (missed a single answer on one test throughout the year).

When I arrived back home, I finally was able to sign up for ASL classes "proper" and thrived ... ASL classes not only improved my ASL skills, but also my English (and French) because for the first time various concepts where made visually available to me - my ASL teachers where able to help me grasp some English concepts that my hearing English teachers had been unable to make clear ... largely because so many words/parts of speech, verb conjugations etc sound identical to me... and hearing people (for the most part) aren't able to understand the various barriers that can place in language acquisition and find a way to make it clear in a way that makes sense without relaying on sound, and hearing etc.

I'm a clear example of someone who has benefited tremendously from the use of ASL as a means of learning and improving my English (and French) - and I'm not alone.

The benefit I gained was made abundantly clear when I went back to university/theological college a few years ago ... The first year I had ASL interpreters for half of my classes and the difference in made was AMAZING. In my non-interpreted classes I basically listened/speechread very carefully, wasn't able to participate and left class exhausted, however in my interpreted classes, for the first time I was able to not only fully understand what was being said in class, but also be able to actively participate - instead of going home exhausted, I went home energized ... even my profs commented on how much more involved I was in my interpreted classes (needless to say I had interpreters for all the classes, lectures, and extracurricular seminars etc from that point on)


One statistic that is constantly tossed around is the 3rd & 4th grade reading level that is "common for deaf individuals in English speaking countries"... of course people conveniently fail to mention that the average reading level of HEARING persons in the same area is only a 5th or 6th grade level. (Having come from a family of teachers: father 40+years experience, sister, cousins etc - they ALL state this to be fact ... they're absolutely appalled by the reading level of many of their students (elementary, jr high, high school & college/university). If you think English is bad, you should see the results of reading levels for students taking a second/third language from kindergarten through high school (so 12years of study) ... these students often fall BELOW the 3rd year reading level - which is horrifying considering the hours put in.

I am forced to spend a great deal of time in the hearing world ... my family is hearing (they've all learned a bit of sign, and my niece is being raised quadra-lingual - including ASL) however I will ALWAYS be more comfortable in the Deaf world. I have never ever even for a second been told by ANYONE who is Deaf that I'm "not Deaf enough" or that I don't "belong" in the Deaf Community ... the only people I've EVER heard that from ... are HEARING people, who seem to think I'm "cheating" somehow.
In the Deaf world I am completely accepted, encouraged to participate, welcomed with open arms. I've never heard of a Deaf person being "jealous of a Hoh person" ( I suppose it happens, in the way some people may wish they had a different colour eyes or skin, but that's a personal issue, not a hoh& d/Deaf issue). I do know a number of Hoh people who wish they themselves were more deaf (mainly people with similar hearing to myself who are completely deaf on one side and Hoh on the other ... just Hoh enough to catch speech, but too Hoh to be comfortable in a speech only environment). Living in the middle is a very difficult path, (& politely intended) and hearing people have no clue just how difficult it really is. In the Deaf world I have full access to communication, to friendship, to understanding ... in the hearing world, I'm partly shut out even when hearing people don't think I am.

While reading and writing English (or French, German, Lao, Cree etc) is very important - it allows access to education, employment, and people who may not speak my language ... but being able to easily communicate with PEOPLE in a natural way, (which for the deaf is visually) is far more important to ones mental well being (and SEE is not a natural form of communication ... it may appear so for hearing people, but not for those who access language visually - because SEE is a clumsy, awkward means of relaying a completely different language (which was never intended to be manually reproduced).

One thing that Hoh and Deaf ASL (and other sign language) users need to realize is that most (fortunately not all) hearing people are unaware of the subtlety and complexity that ASL (BSL/NZSL etc) contains in the hands of a skilled user ... unless a hearing person in fluent in a "native manner" (CODAs etc)having learned ASL as young children who's brains are still developing language ... they may never be able to get past comparing ASL/BSL/NZSL/Auslan to English, LSQ/LSF to French etc ... they may never be able to appreciate it as a unique, "stand alone language" that doesn't need to be "propped up" or compared to something else ... and nor should it be, any more than English should be compared to French, Japanese to Chinese, German to Croatian etc. It is their loss.


I realize that this post is dealing with a number of different concepts all at once, which makes it a bit incongruent at points (it's also 4am and I've yet to get any sleep).. however I wanted to briefly address a few of the points made in HH's post.


incidentally - for those living in the USA, please note that I tend to use Canadian/British spelling for words, however because I did live in the USA (and take English Classes there as well), I do occasionally slip from Canadian/British English into USA English (o/ou, e/oe/œ, ll/l, s/ss, r/rr, ise/ize etc)- I'm aware of it, I simply don't feel it's worth fussing over too terribly much ... so before thinking "urgh, she can't spell" keep in mind that English spelling varies from country to country.
Click to expand...

:gpost:

I wanted to add on how ASL improved my English skills and learning about new things in classes. It did the same for me as well. After graduating from Arizona State University with a little understanding of my studies but passing by just doing what is required, I took the teacher certification assessments and failed the writing part. I scored 100 something out of 400 points. Then I went to Gallaudet University for graduate school with little fluency in ASL. After a semester at Gallaudet, I became fluent and finally started to understand my studies and the field of education in general unlike I did at ASU. Not that ASU was a bad program, it was having oral interpreters and CARTs which made me focus on trying to understand what is being said rather than learning from the professors. I would go home with very sore eyes and exhaustion. At Gallaudet, the classes were very stimulating and I felt very much a part of the learning process because I was able to engage in classroom discussions freely. So, my critical thinking skills improved..yes, at the age of 28 years old.

After graduating from Gallaudet, I took the teacher certification tests and I pulled my writing score from 100 something to over 350. It was amazing what ASL did for my writing even though it was a separate language.

Also, when I write, I feel a connection to what is coming out of my hand when before, it was robotic and without feeling.

This is why I strongly believe in using ASL to teach rather than any manually coded systems. I believe learning takes place by engaging in critical thinking and SEE or oral deaf ed doesnt allow for it due to the barriers.
 
shel90 said:
I wanted to add on how ASL improved my English skills and learning about new things in classes. It did the same for me as well. After graduating from Arizona State University with a little understanding of my studies but passing by just doing what is required, I took the teacher certification assessments and failed the writing part. I scored 100 something out of 400 points. Then I went to Gallaudet University for graduate school with little fluency in ASL. After a semester at Gallaudet, I became fluent and finally started to understand my studies and the field of education in general unlike I did at ASU. Not that ASU was a bad program, it was having oral interpreters and CARTs which made me focus on trying to understand what is being said rather than learning from the professors. I would go home with very sore eyes and exhaustion. At Gallaudet, the classes were very stimulating and I felt very much a part of the learning process because I was able to engage in classroom discussions freely. So, my critical thinking skills improved..yes, at the age of 28 years old.

After graduating from Gallaudet, I took the teacher certification tests and I pulled my writing score from 100 something to over 350. It was amazing what ASL did for my writing even though it was a separate language.

Also, when I write, I feel a connection to what is coming out of my hand when before, it was robotic and without feeling.

This is why I strongly believe in using ASL to teach rather than any manually coded systems. I believe learning takes place by engaging in critical thinking and SEE or oral deaf ed doesnt allow for it due to the barriers.
Click to expand...

Good posting, Shel. That is great how you went from 100+ to 350+ ! Awesome, and we know you're a great teacher! :)
 
shel90 said:
:gpost:

I wanted to add on how ASL improved my English skills and learning about new things in classes. It did the same for me as well. ...

After graduating from Gallaudet, I took the teacher certification tests and I pulled my writing score from 100 something to over 350. It was amazing what ASL did for my writing even though it was a separate language.

Also, when I write, I feel a connection to what is coming out of my hand when before, it was robotic and without feeling.

This is why I strongly believe in using ASL to teach rather than any manually coded systems. I believe learning takes place by engaging in critical thinking and SEE or oral deaf ed doesnt allow for it due to the barriers.
Click to expand...

I LOVE this post! It's exactly what my instincts tell me regardless of what studies so or don't tell us. I'm convinced that my daughter's early foundation in ASL is what's providing her with such a strong upwards trajectory in not only learning to understand and express herself in spoken English , but also in just plain learning in general. And I want to keep that going.

This is the kind of positive, affirming, non-judgmental post that every parent if deaf children should get to read.
 
Thanks AlleyCat and GrendelQ

I guess I become negative when someone disregards ASL or our experiences with it.
 
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