Should ASL be Banned from Deaf Ed programs?

[jillio]

I will give you prior knowledge. However, as I stated, I have very minimal hearing (not enough to differentiate between "milk" and "beer", at the very least, I only hear sounds) and practically no speech discrimination. So I realistically had no outside factors other than prior knowledge. Now, when it comes to using two words, "milk" and "beer," I've got a 50/50 chance of getting it right. And, in this specific case, getting it right 10 times out of 10 tells me that I was able to pick up on those very "L" and "R" letters each and every time. That can't be disputed. Shel has very valid points about lipreading in a large setting as I know first-hand what that's like, but when you're talking about picking out certain letters -- in this case, the L and R in milk and beer, and especially on a one-on-one basis, there IS a difference. Nothing you say will change that.

But there is a difference. "R" is articulated using the back of the tongue and the soft pallette. "L" is articulated using the tip of the tongue on the bony ridge behind the teeth. Neither are visable in normal conversation. Perhaps in isolation, as you were having someone repeat these words to you, they were overarticulating and slowed their pronunciation down. That does not happen in normal conversation. As I said, these two words, along with many others have been used to test various subjects with various speechreading abilities in a controlled environment that excludes the availablity of all other cues. In these conditions, they are indistinguisable.

 

[sirena rossa]

LOL I'll take a MGD !! I have the same problem with numbers too, 17 and 70, 15 and 50, and so on. It was just very clear to me (and others here too!) that "milk" and "beer" were undoubtedly different enough that we deaf people can usually differentiate between the two. Seems everybody has to prove themselves with Jillio as she's "right" all the time and most of the rest of us are "wrong." And since I brought up milk/beer just now, I'll take that MGD; cheers!!

* clinks beer bottles with u * lol.

 

[jillio]

Im sorry but this is irritating me. Can't you just accept that deaf people with good lipreading skills can "magically" understand the difference between milk and beer? Experience itself >> tests, studies, theories, statistics, hypothesis, and so on. Besides, this is pointless because theres a million other words that we DO get confused by. For me, I cant tell the difference between fifteen and fifty. So there, use that. Can we move on?! If someone brings up milk/beer again, someone get me a beer!!!!!! (I prefer Heineken, thank you)

I don't believe in magic. And yes, a million other words do get confused, which is why attempting to use speechreading in a situation where converyance of information is mandatory is more than risky.

 

[Bottesini]

I don't believe in magic. And yes, a million other words do get confused, which is why attempting to use speechreading in a situation where converyance of information is mandatory is more than risky.

Here is my speech reading story of the day. Out to lunch with my granddaughter and my daughter.

My daughter asked me the strangest question about "bitches" being in a class I am taking. I was pretty shocked as we are not really profane people.

After several repeats, she finally fingerspelled and the word was 'Midgets", which did not make much more sense to me, but at least it was not profane.

This is an example of "B" and "M" words being speech read. (I take an oath it is true!)

 

[Angel]

I will give you prior knowledge. However, as I stated, I have very minimal hearing (not enough to differentiate between "milk" and "beer", at the very least, I only hear sounds) and practically no speech discrimination. So I realistically had no outside factors other than prior knowledge. Now, when it comes to using two words, "milk" and "beer," I've got a 50/50 chance of getting it right. And, in this specific case, getting it right 10 times out of 10 tells me that I was able to pick up on those very "L" and "R" letters each and every time. That can't be disputed. Shel has very valid points about lipreading in a large setting as I know first-hand what that's like, but when you're talking about picking out certain letters -- in this case, the L and R in milk and beer, and especially on a one-on-one basis, there IS a difference. Nothing you say will change that.

 

[AlleyCat]

Here is my speech reading story of the day. Out to lunch with my granddaughter and my daughter.

My daughter asked me the strangest question about "bitches" being in a class I am taking. I was pretty shocked as we are not really profane people.

After several repeats, she finally fingerspelled and the word was 'Midgets", which did not make much more sense to me, but at least it was not profane.

This is an example of "B" and "M" words being speech read. (I take an oath it is true!)

Funny story! But I can certainly relate on the B and M portion of it.

 

[sirena rossa]

I don't believe in magic. And yes, a million other words do get confused, which is why attempting to use speechreading in a situation where converyance of information is mandatory is more than risky.

sure, but the thing is, A LOT of deaf people do that (speech reading) on a daily basis. at home, at work, in school, etc. this doesn't mean its the poor choice tho.
Jillio, i'm curious, what is YOUR connection to the deaf and/or deaf education ?

 

[Bottesini]

Funny story! But I can certainly relate on the B and M portion of it.

I think usually I am pretty good at speech reading, but sometimes weird stuff does occur.

My sign language class is all in sign. No speech. It is fun!

 

[shel90]

I will give you prior knowledge. However, as I stated, I have very minimal hearing (not enough to differentiate between "milk" and "beer", at the very least, I only hear sounds) and practically no speech discrimination. So I realistically had no outside factors other than prior knowledge. Now, when it comes to using two words, "milk" and "beer," I've got a 50/50 chance of getting it right. And, in this specific case, getting it right 10 times out of 10 tells me that I was able to pick up on those very "L" and "R" letters each and every time. That can't be disputed. Shel has very valid points about lipreading in a large setting as I know first-hand what that's like, but when you're talking about picking out certain letters -- in this case, the L and R in milk and beer, and especially on a one-on-one basis, there IS a difference. Nothing you say will change that.

But Jillo is right about you having the pior knowledge helping you with being able to distinguish between those because you were expecting your friend to say those two words.

Now, I wonder if the same can be said if you were unexpectly pulled into a booth with a glass and a complete stranger whom you have never met saying those two words to you without the prior knowledge? Now, that is what Jillo is trying to tell you.

The reason I get her point of view is I studied linguistics and language acquisition of deaf and hearing kids and these kinds of discussions were brought up. Until those classes, I would have never thought of it this way.

This is not about who must be "right" or "wrong" ..not interested in that game but it is true and maybe u will be able to catch it all the time with a complete stranger without you being prepared for it. We would never know but you tested the theory using prior knowledge and if that was used as a justification on a research paper, for example, the committe of peer reviewers would cite the research as invalid. I learned that from my Research Foundation classes in grad school.

 

[VamPyroX]

That's not what I see..

What do you see?

I do know that each school is different.

I went to mainstream school with deaf programs. In elementary school, they had deaf classes and hearing classes for each grade. In junior high school, same. In high school, same.

When I went to elementary school, I was mainstream for a couple classes starting in the 3rd grade. In junior high school, I was fully mainstreamed in the 8th grade.

For the deaf ed classes in high school, the teachers allowed students to use ASL 100% of the time except for English class. This resulted in those deaf students not understanding any other subjects such as math, science, history, etc. They constantly failed their tests and the teachers would modify their grades so that they would pass.

When they graduated, they had 3rd grade Reading, 5th to 7th grade Math, almost no understanding of History and Science.

 

[shel90]

What do you see?

I do know that each school is different.

I went to mainstream school with deaf programs. In elementary school, they had deaf classes and hearing classes for each grade. In junior high school, same. In high school, same.

When I went to elementary school, I was mainstream for a couple classes starting in the 3rd grade. In junior high school, I was fully mainstreamed in the 8th grade.

For the deaf ed classes in high school, the teachers allowed students to use ASL 100% of the time except for English class. This resulted in those deaf students not understanding any other subjects such as math, science, history, etc. They constantly failed their tests and the teachers would modify their grades so that they would pass.

When they graduated, they had 3rd grade Reading, 5th to 7th grade Math, almost no understanding of History and Science.

Kids read and write for 90 mins daily each and reading and writing is also included in math and other classes. We are a Reading First school along with being BiBi.

 

[jillio]

Here is my speech reading story of the day. Out to lunch with my granddaughter and my daughter.

My daughter asked me the strangest question about "bitches" being in a class I am taking. I was pretty shocked as we are not really profane people.

After several repeats, she finally fingerspelled and the word was 'Midgets", which did not make much more sense to me, but at least it was not profane.

This is an example of "B" and "M" words being speech read. (I take an oath it is true!)

There you go! It happens all the time IRL communication.

 

[jillio]

But Jillo is right about you having the pior knowledge helping you with being able to distinguish between those because you were expecting your friend to say those two words.

Now, I wonder if the same can be said if you were unexpectly pulled into a booth with a glass and a complete stranger whom you have never met saying those two words to you without the prior knowledge? Now, that is what Jillo is trying to tell you.

The reason I get her point of view is I studied linguistics and language acquisition of deaf and hearing kids and these kinds of discussions were brought up. Until those classes, I would have never thought of it this way.

This is not about who must be "right" or "wrong" ..not interested in that game but it is true and maybe u will be able to catch it all the time with a complete stranger without you being prepared for it. We would never know but you tested the theory using prior knowledge and if that was used as a justification on a research paper, for example, the committe of peer reviewers would cite the research as invalid. I learned that from my Research Foundation classes in grad school.

Thank you, Shel. That is it in a nutshell.

 

[jillio]

sure, but the thing is, A LOT of deaf people do that (speech reading) on a daily basis. at home, at work, in school, etc. this doesn't mean its the poor choice tho.
Jillio, i'm curious, what is YOUR connection to the deaf and/or deaf education ?

I have a profoundly deaf son, am fluent in ASL, SEE1, SEE2, and PSE, and have 22 year connection to the Deaf community. I am a Master's level professional in the field working on my PhD.

Now you.

 

[AlleyCat]

But Jillo is right about you having the pior knowledge helping you with being able to distinguish between those because you were expecting your friend to say those two words.

Now, I wonder if the same can be said if you were unexpectly pulled into a booth with a glass and a complete stranger whom you have never met saying those two words to you without the prior knowledge? Now, that is what Jillo is trying to tell you.

The reason I get her point of view is I studied linguistics and language acquisition of deaf and hearing kids and these kinds of discussions were brought up. Until those classes, I would have never thought of it this way.

This is not about who must be "right" or "wrong" ..not interested in that game but it is true and maybe u will be able to catch it all the time with a complete stranger without you being prepared for it. We would never know but you tested the theory using prior knowledge and if that was used as a justification on a research paper, for example, the committe of peer reviewers would cite the research as invalid. I learned that from my Research Foundation classes in grad school.

I did give Jillio the prior knowledge part. That's why I stated I had at least a 50/50 chance of getting it right. But, to get it right 10 out of 10 times (and especially without having to think about it -- "was that really "milk" or "could that really have been beer?" -- in each case it was CLEAR, no guesses) says something.

Anyway, as far as your post goes, getting into a conversation with a perfect stranger and being able to pick out words and letters is always new and can be difficult. I think none of us will dispute that. And, especially, if you have no prior knowledge or context to go with what you're about to lipread. I want to give just one more example, then I'm done with this subject because we've really veered off-topic here .. In my latest audiology test, I had to do a lip-reading test. Not sure why, as that was the first time I've done that. It was in the soundproof booth, no headphones, no hearing aids. I was given 20 words, I got 16 out of 20. I thought that was a great score, and is probably more than the norm. Because trying to lipread single words with no context is very difficult, I DID have to think for a few seconds, of some words, of what I'd just lipread before I could comprehend it into a word. But, still, getting 16 shows me that I was able to pick up different tongue and lip movements that I think hearing people don't realize that we do pick up. Even the audiologist was quite impressed. Now that I think of it, that works out to 80%, which is NOT the norm.

 

[VamPyroX]

Kids read and write for 90 mins daily each and reading and writing is also included in math and other classes. We are a Reading First school along with being BiBi.

That's something I think should be encouraged.

That's how it was for me. I spent a lot of time working on my reading and writing skills while growing up. A lot of the deaf students wouldn't try to work on their reading and writing skills. They basically had their teacher translate it all into ASL for them or their teachers didn't care... as long as they can modify the grades later on. :roll:

Every couple years, I took an assessment test along with the other deaf students. Along with 2 other students, we were always on grade-level as everyone else. However, the rest of the deaf students weren't. They were behind 3 to 7 years. So, they had easier test.

I remember taking the test one day. While working on the test, another deaf student was sitting across from me. He was working on a large-print 3rd grade math test. He kept complaining that he couldn't understand the word problems and the teacher would end up doing the work for him. So, he passed those tests. :roll:

 

[shel90]

I did give Jillio the prior knowledge part. That's why I stated I had at least a 50/50 chance of getting it right. But, to get it right 10 out of 10 times (and especially without having to think about it -- "was that really "milk" or "could that really have been beer?" -- in each case it was CLEAR, no guesses) says something.

Anyway, as far as your post goes, getting into a conversation with a perfect stranger and being able to pick out words and letters is always new and can be difficult. I think none of us will dispute that. And, especially, if you have no prior knowledge or context to go with what you're about to lipread. I want to give just one more example, then I'm done with this subject because we've really veered off-topic here .. In my latest audiology test, I had to do a lip-reading test. Not sure why, as that was the first time I've done that. It was in the soundproof booth, no headphones, no hearing aids. I was given 20 words, I got 16 out of 20. I thought that was a great score, and is probably more than the norm. Because trying to lipread single words with no context is very difficult, I DID have to think for a few seconds, of some words, of what I'd just lipread before I could comprehend it into a word. But, still, getting 16 shows me that I was able to pick up different tongue and lip movements that I think hearing people don't realize that we do pick up. Even the audiologist was quite impressed. Now that I think of it, that works out to 80%, which is NOT the norm.

Cool..

 

[shel90]

I have a profoundly deaf son, am fluent in ASL, SEE1, SEE2, and PSE, and have 22 year connection to the Deaf community. I am a Master's level professional in the field working on my PhD.

Now you.

My student teacher who is deaf and grew up with ASL and SEE (dont know which one) was teasing my students during social studies class by signing SEE...they couldnt understand her at all and I couldnt either! It was funny!

 

[shel90]

That's something I think should be encouraged.

That's how it was for me. I spent a lot of time working on my reading and writing skills while growing up. A lot of the deaf students wouldn't try to work on their reading and writing skills. They basically had their teacher translate it all into ASL for them or their teachers didn't care... as long as they can modify the grades later on. :roll:

Every couple years, I took an assessment test along with the other deaf students. Along with 2 other students, we were always on grade-level as everyone else. However, the rest of the deaf students weren't. They were behind 3 to 7 years. So, they had easier test.

I remember taking the test one day. While working on the test, another deaf student was sitting across from me. He was working on a large-print 3rd grade math test. He kept complaining that he couldn't understand the word problems and the teacher would end up doing the work for him. So, he passed those tests. :roll:

Then the teachers were wrong to do that and should have never been in the field of teaching in the first place. The problem is that people blame ASL but usually it is just what you described were the reasons for the poor literacy skills.

 

[jillio]

My student teacher who is deaf and grew up with ASL and SEE (dont know which one) was teasing my students during social studies class by signing SEE...they couldnt understand her at all and I couldnt either! It was funny!

I learned it as a tool for teaching, but have never, ever used it in conversation. Way too cumbersome, and simply does not make sense when processed visually.