Should ASL be Banned from Deaf Ed programs?

[web730]

Are there alot of deaf folks in your area?

Quite many in my area (big city) and other town nearby where FSDB is... but not as much as I used to have back in Indiana.

Don't forget that we have videophones so I do have more deaf friends via vp, however.

 

[Jiro]

That too is part of the problem I don't think it is unreasonable to request a citing and source to back up claiims from research. What is there to hide?

another tough part is.... most people would just skim through to find a very selective part out of the whole paper just to support their argument when in fact, it is not really supportive to their argument. That's why it's called research. That's why you see in movies, real life, college libraries..... you'll see some pimply-face nerds with stacks of dusty books and papers everywhere on the desk. Gotta read them all and then come up with your own conclusion with appropriate citations from each source (but not in a SELECTIVE sense) and this certainly doesn't take a few hours to do so. the hardest part is.... trying to stay awake

I did this for my thesis paper in my senior year so I know what does this entails. That's why a high-priced lawyer has a dedicated team of bright researchers to do this for him/her and it takes months to prepare it.

 

[Jiro]

Yes on one occasion you offered but wanted my personal email address. You also know the reason I declined is because I am not comfortable giving out my personal email to a stranger on the internet. We also concluded that the article was to big to send via PM. Then I asked you to just quote the pieces that related to the points you were making with a citing and a source. I'm not sure why but you chose not to do that.

that's why I have over 6 email addresses. You should just create a "stranger email address"

 

[jillio]

Yes on one occasion you offered but wanted my personal email address. You also know the reason I declined is because I am not comfortable giving out my personal email to a stranger on the internet. We also concluded that the article was to big to send via PM. Then I asked you to just quote the pieces that related to the points you were making with a citing and a source. I'm not sure why but you chose not to do that.

You are going in circles here, RD. You were offered an option to access the research without any effort on your part. You declined. Therefore, you place yourself in the position of having to locate it yourself. And I explained throroughly why I would not quote the article out of context. Your memory is one of convenience.

You have put yourself in the position of having no other option but to find the research yourself. You declined other options. If you want it, it is up to you to find it, a result that is the consequence of your own choices. Stop complaining that people are trying to hide anything from you, or not providing you with what you request. Efforts were made to supply you with what you requested. You turned those efforts down. The result is that you are now responsible for locating it on your own.

 

[Cheri]

You are going in circles here, RD. You were offered an option to access the research without any effort on your part. You declined. Therefore, you place yourself in the position of having to locate it yourself. And I explained throroughly why I would not quote the article out of context. Your memory is one of convenience.

You have put yourself in the position of having no other option but to find the research yourself. You declined other options. If you want it, it is up to you to find it, a result that is the consequence of your own choices. Stop complaining that people are trying to hide anything from you, or not providing you with what you request. Efforts were made to supply you with what you requested. You turned those efforts down. The result is that you are now responsible for locating it on your own.

Why must private message or email? Since you posted all that information on a public board, you may as well cited your source here.

 

[jillio]

another tough part is.... most people would just skim through to find a very selective part out of the whole paper just to support their argument when in fact, it is not really supportive to their argument. That's why it's called research. That's why you see in movies, real life, college libraries..... you'll see some pimply-face nerds with stacks of dusty books and papers everywhere on the desk. Gotta read them all and then come up with your own conclusion with appropriate citations from each source (but not in a SELECTIVE sense) and this certainly doesn't take a few hours to do so. the hardest part is.... trying to stay awake

I did this for my thesis paper in my senior year so I know what does this entails. That's why a high-priced lawyer has a dedicated team of bright researchers to do this for him/her and it takes months to prepare it.

Exactly. Critical evaluation is the key. It is time consuming and tiring work. It is however, worth the results if one is willing to expend the effort. It aqll comes down to how much effort one is willing to exert to come up with the actual information, and not some quick search using an abstract that leaves one just as uninformed as prior to making the attempt.

 

[Jiro]

btw Jillio - were you one of those pimply-face nerds with stacks of dusty books and papers all over on the table?

 

[jillio]

Why must private message or email? Since you posted all that information on a public board, you may as well cited your source here.

Because, Cheri, and I have said this several times, it is innappropriate to post a 40+ page research article on a public forum, and there are rules and restriction regarding reproduction.:roll:
I am not going to violate copyright law just because someone doesn't want to make the effort to access their own research.

I have cited my sources. What good has it done you? Have you bothered to use those citations to access any of the research articles, and read them in their entirety?

Like I said earlier, if you want to hire me as a research assistant, I will be glad to send you a fee schedule and an employment contract.

 

[Jiro]

for the sake of argument.... I'm offering my webserver space to store the research files for all to download.

 

[rockdrummer]

You are going in circles here, RD. You were offered an option to access the research without any effort on your part. You declined. Therefore, you place yourself in the position of having to locate it yourself. And I explained throroughly why I would not quote the article out of context. Your memory is one of convenience.

You have put yourself in the position of having no other option but to find the research yourself. You declined other options. If you want it, it is up to you to find it, a result that is the consequence of your own choices. Stop complaining that people are trying to hide anything from you, or not providing you with what you request. Efforts were made to supply you with what you requested. You turned those efforts down. The result is that you are now responsible for locating it on your own.

you are confusing or attempting to combine two different requests. You should provide a citing and source each and every time you claim that research proves or disproves something. It's the responsible thing to do. I recall exactly your not wanting to quote anyting out of context and nobody asked you to. In fact I asked you to only post the information that pertianed to your point. You seem to believe that one must understand the entire research paper in order to comprehend a single point being made. It's ok Jill... We obviously disagree and that's ok. let it go.

 

[jillio]

for the sake of argument.... I'm offering my webserver space to store the research files for all to download.

That's a possible solution, but we still run into restrictions on posting to a public place other than the one that has the rights to the article. Since the stuff in already in a public place, and is cross referenced for easier access, it is restricted as to how and where it can be posted in its entirety.

 

[Jiro]

you are confusing or attempting to combine two different requests. You should provide a citing and source each and every time you claim that research proves or disproves something. It's the responsible thing to do. I recall exactly your not wanting to quote anyting out of context and nobody asked you to. In fact I asked you to only post the information that pertianed to your point.

valid point but then it's not an easy read anyway and you do need some background to understand it fully

You seem to believe that one must understand the entire research paper in order to comprehend a single point being made. It's ok Jill... We obviously disagree and that's ok. let it go.

that is the hard part. There's no one source for one single point. you need multiple sources for one single point. What do you think why it takes years to come to one conclusion in any scientific/legal argument?

 

[jillio]

you are confusing or attempting to combine two different requests. You should provide a citing and source each and every time you claim that research proves or disproves something. It's the responsible thing to do. I recall exactly your not wanting to quote anyting out of context and nobody asked you to. In fact I asked you to only post the information that pertianed to your point. You seem to believe that one must understand the entire research paper in order to comprehend a single point being made. It's ok Jill... We obviously disagree and that's ok. let it go.

A citation is intended to direct you to the full article that was used as a reference. If you aren't going to use it to do so, exactly what do you want it for?

And one does need to read the entire paper in order to understand, in context, the point being made. That is why papers are written as they are, and published as they are. Otherwise, all that would be required for publication is a paragraph or two.

 

[jillio]

valid point but then it's not an easy read anyway and you do need some background to understand it fully


that is the hard part. There's no one source for one single point. you need multiple sources for one single point. What do you think why it takes years to come to one conclusion in any scientific/legal argument?

Exactly. Ever look at the sources cited portion of a research report? How about a research proposal prior to ever beginning the study? There are 100s of documents referenced.

But then, this is getting off topic again, and this is not the day I teach the methods class.

 

[rockdrummer]

That's a possible solution, but we still run into restrictions on posting to a public place other than the one that has the rights to the article. Since the stuff in already in a public place, and is cross referenced for easier access, it is restricted as to how and where it can be posted in its entirety.

Yes I agree there are legal considerations and one must be careful. But there is nothing illegal or that would require space on a webserver to simply cite an article by it's title and source. Then people can locate it eaisly instead of having to spend hours searching for something based on only general search criteria. Trust me, I have tried that and didn't get beyond the first website. Why, the first thing it wanted to know was the year it was published. It really depends on the search engine capabilities. Oxford journals has an outstanding search engine but even then you need a title or some other piece of criteria. To search on the topic of Deaf Education is an option but you will spend hours and hours on that topic alone. If at least the title is given it makes it much eaiser to locate. When only general or no criteria is given, the scope of the search is much broader and you will end up with hundreds or thousands of hits.

 

[jillio]

Yes I agree there are legal considerations and one must be careful. But there is nothing illegal or that would require space on a webserver to simply cite an article by it's title and source. Then people can locate it eaisly instead of having to spend hours searching for something based on only general search criteria. Trust me, I have tried that and didn't get beyond the first website. Why, the first thing it wanted to know was the year it was published. It really depends on the search engine capabilities. Oxford journals has an outstanding search engine but even then you need a title or some other piece of criteria. To search on the topic of Deaf Education is an option but you will spend hours and hours on that topic alone. If at least the title is given it makes it much eaiser to locate. When only general or no criteria is given, the scope of the search is much broader and you will end up with hundreds or thousands of hits.

Try using the thesaurus feature. I find articles and research reports daily with nothing more than subject terms.

Yep, finding research is a time consuming and tedious process. I do it all the time. Such is the nature of the beast. I find the results to be well worth the effort required.

 

[rockdrummer]

Try using the thesaurus feature. I find articles and research reports daily with nothing more than subject terms.

Yep, finding research is a time consuming and tedious process. I do it all the time. Such is the nature of the beast. I find the results to be well worth the effort required.

To put it back in perspective, the person making the claim about specific research has the capability of providing the information needed to locate that specific research quiclky. That is all that is being asked.

Sorry Shel90

 

[jillio]

To put it back in perspective, the person making the claim about specific research has the capability of providing the information needed to locate that specific research quiclky. That is all that is being asked.

Sorry Shel90

I've given you the information you need to locate it. Follow the instructions, and presto chango....you will find what you are looking for.

But, as I said, if you want me to do the work for you, then I will be happy to mail you a fee shcedule.

 

[Oceanbreeze]

I think there's a big problem in here regarding citations. I think handful of us in here do not have access to academic research database so..... I guess we're limited to what? Scientific American magazine? wikipedia?

It's not that hard to find abstracts on the web. All you have to do is plug in the term you're looking for and you'll come up with abstracts. You may need to pay to have access to the entire study or what have you, but it's not that hard to pull up an abstract from the WWW.

I've done it countless of times.

 

[rockdrummer]

The metrics are contained within the statistical analysis portion of numerous research documents on the topic. Likewise, results are reported in numerous articles and books.

Go to an academic data base, pull up professional journals devoted to otolaryngology, deaf education, speech pathology, communication disorders, etc. and bookmark the articles that address these concerns. Read the abstracts, and if they appear to fit your needs, request the PDF or full text article. Read the full article, including methodology and statistical analysis sections, as well as results and discussion, and then critically analyze what you have read in order to pinpoint strengths and weaknesses of the research design, and then, based on those strengths and weaknesses, look for additional research that will address such.

Synthesize the knowledge and apply it to various actual situations.

That is the method I use.

I've given you the information you need to locate it. Follow the instructions, and presto chango....you will find what you are looking for.

But, as I said, if you want me to do the work for you, then I will be happy to mail you a fee shcedule.

And how is using your instructions going to be faster then if you were to provide the title and source??