Shooting at Ft Hood; 7 dead, 20+wounded

Status
Not open for further replies.
A dishonorable discharge for desertion would still have been preferrable over what he did.
Preferable for whom?

For the soldiers at Fort Hood, that would be undoubtedly preferable.

For Hasan? I don't know. It depends on his true goal. If he just wanted to avoid going to Afghanistan or Iraq, then that might work. If he wanted to make a big splash for his cause, then doubtful.
 
oh? interesting. what about exhibiting anti-American attitude?
It would take more than an "attitude" for a dishonorable discharge. Some kind of bad action would be required.

There are other kinds of discharges. They aren't limited to honorable and dishonorable.
 
Preferable for whom?

For the soldiers at Fort Hood, that would be undoubtedly preferable.

For Hasan? I don't know. It depends on his true goal. If he just wanted to avoid going to Afghanistan or Iraq, then that might work. If he wanted to make a big splash for his cause, then doubtful.

I think Eve meant that it would have been preferable for Hasan to find a way to get out via a dishonorable discharge rather than to go through the shooting route.
 
It would take more than an "attitude" for a dishonorable discharge. Some kind of bad action would be required.

There are other kinds of discharges. They aren't limited to honorable and dishonorable.

could you list a few examples that would qualify for dishonorable discharge?
 
I think Eve meant that it would have been preferable for Hasan to find a way to get out via a dishonorable discharge rather than to go through the shooting route.
Like I said, it depends on his motive.
 
How about going AWOL or commit some other offenses enough to warrant a dishonorable discharge? Certainly much more preferable option than to murder people if he wanted out.
 
How about going AWOL or commit some other offenses enough to warrant a dishonorable discharge? Certainly much more preferable option than to murder people if he wanted out.

one could ask same for VT shooter and Columbine shooters - "why not just shoot yourself instead of murdering these people if they're fed up with the society?"

it's not that simple.
 
could you list a few examples that would qualify for dishonorable discharge?
Since Hasan is a commissioned officer, he wouldn't be subject to a dishonorable discharge. Officers and enlisted are treated differently.

If he did desert, this would apply:

"(b) Any commissioned officer of the armed forces who, after tender of his resignation and before notice of its acceptance, quits his post or proper duties without leave and with intent to remain away therefrom permanently is guilty of desertion.
(c) Any person found guilty of desertion or attempt to desert shall be punished, if the offense is committed in time of war, by death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct, but if the desertion or attempt to desert occurs at any other time, by such punishment, other than death, as a court-martial may direct."
885. ART. 85. DESERTION
Uniform Code of Military Justice
 
The bold sections are specific to commissioned officers:

"General Court-Martial. A general court-martial is the most serious level of military courts. It consists of a military judge, trial counsel, defense counsel, and at least five court members. Again, an enlisted accused may request a court composed of at least one-third enlisted personnel. Unless the case is one in which the death sentence could be adjudged, an officer or enlisted accused may also request trial by judge alone. In a general court-martial, the maximum punishment is that established for each offense under the Manual for Courts-Martial, and may include death (for certain offenses), confinement, a dishonorable or bad-conduct discharge for enlisted personnel, a dismissal for officers, or a number of other lesser forms of punishment. A pretrial investigation under Article 32, UCMJ, must be conducted before a case may be referred to a general court-martial, unless waived by the accused."
MILITARY JUSTICE FACT SHEETS
 
Thanks, Reba. So then, a dismissal and not a dishonorable discharge for an officer would be the preferable route if he wanted to somehow get out of the Army.

Hasan is going to get fried and go to hell.
 
I wonder if Hasan even remembers the incident.
 
That's a good question Beowulf. Maybe not if he was psychotic.
 
Thanks, Reba. So then, a dismissal and not a dishonorable discharge for an officer would be the preferable route if he wanted to somehow get out of the Army.

Hasan is going to get fried and go to hell.
If he got the dismissal as a result of desertion, he could be executed:

"Any person found guilty of desertion or attempt to desert shall be punished, if the offense is committed in time of war, by death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct"
 
one could ask same for VT shooter and Columbine shooters - "why not just shoot yourself instead of murdering these people if they're fed up with the society?"

it's not that simple.

Right. It's not that simple. He may want revenge or want to act out and kill people to get people's attention. If he just commits suicide, I can assure you that the media won't care.
 
Reba, so, there is no way one can "get out" by means of a dismissal? What about conscientious objector?
 
Would objectors be allowed to stay on the homefront, or would they be deployed overseas regardless of where they were placed?
 
Reba, so, there is no way one can "get out" by means of a dismissal? What about conscientious objector?
Hasan couldn't request conscientious objector status because:

1. He volunteered for military service; he wasn't drafted.

2. He's already in a non-combatant status as a health services officer, so there's nothing to "object" to. He wasn't being ordered to go into combat against anyone.
 
Would objectors be allowed to stay on the homefront, or would they be deployed overseas regardless of where they were placed?
In Hasan's case he could be sent anywhere.


Here's the official explanation:

CONSCIENTIOUS OBJECTION AND ALTERNATIVE SERVICE

A conscientious objector is one who is opposed to serving in the armed forces and/or bearing arms on the grounds of moral or religious principles.

HOW TO APPLY
In general, once a man gets a notice that he has been found qualified for military service, he has the opportunity to make a claim for classification as a conscientious objector (CO). A registrant making a claim for Conscientious Objection is required to appear before his local board to explain his beliefs.

He may provide written documentation or include personal appearances by people he knows who can attest to his claims. His written statement might explain:

*how he arrived at his beliefs; and

*the influence his beliefs have had on how he lives his life.

The local board will decide whether to grant or deny a CO classification based on the evidence a registrant has presented.

A man may appeal a Local Board's decision to a Selective Service District Appeal Board. If the Appeal Board also denies his claim, but the vote is not unanimous, he may further appeal the decision to the National Appeal Board. See also Classifications.

WHO QUALIFIES?
Beliefs which qualify a registrant for CO status may be religious in nature, but don't have to be. Beliefs may be moral or ethical; however, a man's reasons for not wanting to participate in a war must not be based on politics, expediency, or self-interest. In general, the man's lifestyle prior to making his claim must reflect his current claims.

SERVICE AS A CONSCIENTIOUS OBJECTOR
Two types of service are available to conscientious objectors, and the type assigned is determined by the individual's specific beliefs. The person who is opposed to any form of military service will be assigned to Alternative Service - described below. The person whose beliefs allow him to serve in the military but in a noncombatant capacity will serve in the Armed Forces but will not be assigned training or duties that include using weapons.

ALTERNATIVE SERVICE
Conscientious Objectors opposed to serving in the military will be placed in the Selective Service Alternative Service Program. This program attempts to match COs with local employers. Many types of jobs are available, however the job must be deemed to make a meaningful contribution to the maintenance of the national health, safety, and interest. Examples of Alternative Service are jobs in:

*conservation

*caring for the very young or very old

*education

*health care

Length of service in the program will equal the amount of time a man would have served in the military, usually 24 months.
Selective Service System: Fast Facts


Here's a link specifically for the Army:

http://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/army/ar600-43.pdf
 
1–5. Policy
a. Personnel who qualify as conscientious objectors under this regulation will be classified as such, consistent with
the effectiveness and efficiency of the Army. However, requests by personnel for qualification as a conscientious
objector after entering military service will not be favorably considered when these requests are—
(1) Based on a claim of conscientious objection that existed and satisfied the requirements for classification as a
conscientious objector according to section 6(j) of the Military Selective Service Act, as amended (50 USC, App
456(j)), and other provisions of law when such a claim was not presented before dispatch of the notice of induction,
enlistment, or appointment. Claims based on conscientious objection growing out of experiences before entering
military service, however, which did not become fixed until after the person’s entry into the service, will be considered.
(2) Based solely on conscientious objection claimed and denied on their merits by the Selective Service System
before induction when application under this regulation is based on substantially the same grounds, or supported by
substantially the same evidence, as the request that was denied under the Selective Service System. Refusal to reopen a
person’s classification, under the Selective Service System, after his or her entry into service does not have any
significance on the merits of a registrant’s claim. If views are expressed under the Selective Service System concerning
the merits of the claim of a registrant whose beliefs have crystallized after dispatch of his or her induction notice, in
connection with a refusal to reopen his or her classification, such expressions must be given no consideration.
(3) Based solely upon policy, pragmatism, or expediency. Applicants who are otherwise eligible for conscientious
objector status may not be denied that status simply because of their views on the nation’s domestic or foreign policies.
(4) Based on objection to a certain war.
(5) Based upon insincerity.
(a) The most important consideration is not whether applicants are sincere in wanting to be designated as a
conscientious objector, but whether their asserted convictions are sincerely held. Sincerity is determined by an impartial
evaluation of each person’s thinking and living in totality, past and present. The conduct of persons, in particular their
outward manifestation of the beliefs asserted, will be carefully examined and given substantial weight in evaluating
their application.
(b) Relevant factors that should be considered in determining a person’s claim of conscientious objection include
training in the home and church; general demeanor and pattern of conduct; participation in religious activities; whether
ethical or moral convictions were gained through training, study, contemplation, or other activity comparable in rigor
and dedication to the processes by which traditional religious convictions are formulated; credibility of persons
supporting the claim.
(c) Applicants may have sought release from the Army through several means simultaneously, or in rapid succession
AR 600–43 • 21 August 2006 1
(medical or hardship discharge, and so forth). They may have some major commitments during the time their beliefs
were developing that are inconsistent with their claim. They may have applied for conscientious objector status shortly
after becoming aware of the prospect of undesirable or hazardous duty or having been rejected for a special program.
The timing of their application alone, however, is never enough to furnish a basis in fact to support a disapproval.
These examples serve merely as indicators that further inquiry as to the person’s sincerity is warranted. Recommendations
for disapproval should be supported by additional evidence beyond these indicators.
b. Care must be exercised not to deny the existence of beliefs simply because those beliefs are incompatible with
one’s own. Church membership or adherence to certain theological tenets are not required to warrant separation or
assignment to noncombatant training and service. Mere affiliation with a church or other group that advocates
conscientious objection as a tenet of its creed does not necessarily determine a person’s position or belief. Conversely,
affiliation with a church group that does not teach conscientious objection does not necessarily rule out adherence to
conscientious objection beliefs. Applicants may be or may have been a member of a church, religious organization, or
religious sect; and the claim of conscientious objection may be related to such membership. If so, inquiry may be made
as to their membership, the teaching of their church, religious organization or sect, as well as their religious activity.
However, the fact that these persons may disagree with, or not subscribe to, some of the tenets of their church does not
necessarily discredit their claim. The personal convictions of each person will dominate so long as they derive from the
person’s moral, ethical, or religious beliefs. The task is to decide whether the beliefs professed are sincerely held and
whether they govern the claimant’s actions in word and deed.
c. The burden of establishing a claim of conscientious objection as grounds for separation or assignment to
noncombatant training and service is on the applicant. To this end, applicants must establish, by clear and convincing
evidence, that the nature or basis of the claim comes within the definition of criteria prescribed in this regulation for
conscientious objection and that their beliefs are sincere. Applicants have the burden of determining and setting forth
the exact nature of the request; that is, whether they request separation based on conscientious objection (1–0) or
reassignment to noncombatant training and service based on conscientious objection (1–A–0).
d. An applicant claiming (1–0) status will not be granted (1–A–0) status as a compromise. Similarly, discharge will
not be recommended for those who apply for classification as a noncombatant.
e. This regulation will not be used to effect the administrative separation of persons who do not qualify as
conscientious objectors. Nor will it be used instead of administrative separation procedures such as those provided for
unsatisfactory performance, substandard performance of duty, or misconduct, or as otherwise set forth in other Army
regulations (AR 600–8–24 or AR 635–200). Under no circumstances will administrative separation of these persons be
effected according to this regulation.
f. This regulation does not prevent the administrative elimination, according to law and Army regulations, of any
person whose performance of duty after reclassification as a (1–A–0) conscientious objector is substandard or who
exhibits another basis for elimination.
http://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/army/ar600-43.pdf
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top