Selective abortion.

[Maria]

An abortion is a medical procedure. If a doctor tells a woman that she must abort a pregnancy in order to save her own life, and she refuses that medical treatment, and dies as a result, she has committed suicide by failing to do that which would have saved her own life. You are recommending that women do just that.

THAT situation is different. You are talkin' about medical treatment. I am talkin' about somethin' else. A different issue. Suppose, IF a doctor tell me that I must abort my pregnancy in order to save my own life, then I would tell a doctor to let me go and save this unborn child. It doesn't mean that I commit suicide, just because of the health cause it - a natural cause. I have nooo way to control it. It just happens. Suppose, if I am in an extremely PAIN due to health problem such as complication, then it would be commit suicide to ASK a doctor to put me to sleep through lethal injection ( IV via syringe ).

In that case, the woman has committed suicide, which is considered to be a sin punishable by eternal damnation in many religions. So, by your logic, you consider that to be acceptable.

Well, like I said above about " puttin' me to sleep through lethal injection " -- yes, that is a sin because, I want to END my life in my own hands... the one who makes this decision, not doctor's.

 

[Liza]

We are our own worst punishers, methinks!

Wow, everyone feels so strongly on this issue of abortion. Nothing new! For me, of course -- I still support having the choice to have an abortion or not. Um, selective abortion. I don't want others to decide if an abortion is ok or not ok in circumstances. I want to have full power of that at my own expense.

If others want to call me a murderer when I decide to get an abortion, then fine. I will know who my real friends are and be more 'selective' of new friends. Imagine wanting to be friends with a homophobe! That is a consequence of having extreme beliefs without making room that others believe differently from where I sit. Think about it.

 

[Jiro]

Well, like I said above about " puttin' me to sleep through lethal injection " -- yes, that is a sin because, I want to END my life in my own hands... the one who makes this decision, not doctor's.

ok but please take your abstract reasoning to religious leaders if you want to argue about soul, sin, suicide, etc. not us because religious interpretation does not work in any debate.

 

[jillio]

Well, like I said above about " puttin' me to sleep through lethal injection " -- yes, that is a sin because, I want to END my life in my own hands... the one who makes this decision, not doctor's.

That has absolutely nothing to do with the topic. You are talking about euthenasia.

 

[jillio]

We are our own worst punishers, methinks!

Wow, everyone feels so strongly on this issue of abortion. Nothing new! For me, of course -- I still support having the choice to have an abortion or not. Um, selective abortion. I don't want others to decide if an abortion is ok or not ok in circumstances. I want to have full power of that at my own expense.

If others want to call me a murderer when I decide to get an abortion, then fine. I will know who my real friends are and be more 'selective' of new friends. Imagine wanting to be friends with a homophobe! That is a consequence of having extreme beliefs without making room that others believe differently from where I sit. Think about it.

 

[jillio]

ok but please take your abstract reasoning to religious leaders if you want to argue about soul, sin, suicide, etc. not us because religious interpretation does not work in any debate.

Exactly. Religous beliefs cannot be used to argue legality.

And yes, it does mean that you have made a decision which ultimately ends in your own death...a death that is the direct result of your action. That, under all definitions, is suicide.

 

[Maria]

ok but please take your abstract reasoning to religious leaders if you want to argue about soul, sin, suicide, etc. not us because religious interpretation does not work in any debate.

I am aware of that. I didn't bring soul, sin or what ever first. Someone else brought that up first before I answered to their posts. Please, re-read their posts first before you tell me to take my abstract reasonin' to religious leaders.

 

[Maria]

That has absolutely nothing to do with the topic. You are talking about euthenasia.

Exactly! I already told you that it is somethin' else. Now, you understand.

 

[Jiro]

I am aware of that. I didn't bring soul, sin or what ever first. Someone else brought that up first before I answered to their posts. Please, re-read their posts first before you tell me to take my abstract reasonin' to religious leaders.

no no - Your view/reasoning on abortion is largely based on religious interpretation. Our arguments are based on scientific interpretations. You believed it's a sin... a murder to kill a fetus. You believed it's selfish to abort the fetus to save yourself. You believed it's "heroic" to die for your fetus. You believed the life/soul/spirit/personhood began right after egg is fertilized.

All above are largely of religious view. It does not work. It is irrational, illogical, and abstract (in scientific sense) . That's why Supreme Court granted a sacred rights to woman to choose whatever she wants with her body and fetus. But hey - it's a win-win for all. You get to choose to refuse abortion. We get to choose to have abortion. No problem here! Thanks goodness our country is not governed by Vatican City.

 

[jillio]

Exactly! I already told you that it is somethin' else. Now, you understand.

No, deciding against having an abortion, and loosing your life in the process is a completely different concept than active euthanasia of a terminally ill patient at the end of life.

 

[Byrdie714]

no no - Your view/reasoning on abortion is largely based on religious interpretation. Our arguments are based on scientific interpretations. You believed it's a sin... a murder to kill a fetus. You believed it's selfish to abort the fetus to save yourself. You believed it's "heroic" to die for your fetus. You believed the life/soul/spirit/personhood began right after egg is fertilized.

All above are largely of religious view. It does not work. It is irrational, illogical, and abstract (in scientific sense) . That's why Supreme Court granted a sacred rights to woman to choose whatever she wants with her body and fetus. But hey - it's a win-win for all. You get to choose to refuse abortion. We get to choose to have abortion. No problem here! Thanks goodness our country is not governed by Vatican City.

Ain't that the truth!

 

[Oceanbreeze]

Okay. Blessed your mother's heart for allowin' you to live in despite of her " not knowin' what to do ". You are here to meet AD people. Each person have their own purpose to be here.

I won't deny that. I admitted as much, but it was wrong for the Dr to pressure my Mother into making a decision that may not have been her own.

 

[netrox]

Abortion = an embryo or a fetus removal
Murder = killing another human

Murder is when you kill that's against the law.

Abortion and war killings aren't legally "murder" because they are considered legitimate. Killing someone in self-defense isn't "murder" because you're defending yourself.

 

[netrox]

I won't deny that. I admitted as much, but it was wrong for the Dr to pressure my Mother into making a decision that may not have been her own.

Just curious, was she happy with having you or you just think that it would be better for her not to have you? Or you think your own life sucks and you wish you could have not existed?

For me, I am glad I wasn't aborted and since my mother consciously planned to have me and did what she believed was right, I am fine with it. I don't have disabilities other than deafness. She claims that I was never a burden to her and admits she favors me over my sister whom she did NOT plan to have. Favoritism is SO obvious tho.. she "hates" my sister while treating me so well.

But I often wondered.. if my mother tells me, "oops you were an accident and I didn't want you..." I think I'd rather be aborted. That's just an intellectual logic though.

 

[Oceanbreeze]

Just curious, was she happy with having you or you just think that it would be better for her not to have you? Or you think your own life sucks and you wish you could have not existed?

For me, I am glad I wasn't aborted and since my mother consciously planned to have me and did what she believed was right, I am fine with it. I don't have disabilities other than deafness. She claims that I was never a burden to her and admits she favors me over my sister whom she did NOT plan to have. Favoritism is SO obvious tho.. she "hates" my sister while treating me so well.

But I often wondered.. if my mother tells me, "oops you were an accident and I didn't want you..." I think I'd rather be aborted. That's just an intellectual logic though.

Honestly, a mix of all of the above. I'm sure there were times when she was happy I was around when my health was relatively stable, but there was also times when she thought I was a burden and wished she "had an out". That was moreso true as I got older. As for me, there have been times when I wish I hadn't survived the many infections I've had; as well as the surgeries.

 

[dreama]

If you consider deafness to be a decapitating disability, that's your view - not mine.

I never said that deafness WAS a decapitating disability. But neither is downs syndrome or spina bifida. Believe me they can also cope. True some disabilities are more severe then others.

Sometimes for the disabled person themselves to have a severe mental and physical disability is not a problem. You have to remember that they have the mental capacity of very young children and they are often HAPPY. I've worked with people like that so I should know. Sometimes people with lesser disabilities who are more aware of what they don't have can suffer more but if you think like me and make yourself think of everything you DO have and not ever look at the negative aspects of deafblindness then you can feel happier that way. After all Nobody wants to kill me, (unless peter singer gets is way)I have enough to eat, I've got a roof over my head, I can go out whenever want to without an escorts. Some people in the world I'm sure they would just love a life like mine.

 

[Jiro]

I never said that deafness WAS a decapitating disability. But neither is downs syndrome or spina bifida. Believe me they can also cope. True some disabilities are more severe then others.

Sometimes for the disabled person themselves to have a severe mental and physical disability is not a problem. You have to remember that they have the mental capacity of very young children and they are often HAPPY. I've worked with people like that so I should know. Sometimes people with lesser disabilities who are more aware of what they don't have can suffer more but if you think like me and make yourself think of everything you DO have and not ever look at the negative aspects of deafblindness then you can feel happier that way. After all Nobody wants to kill me, (unless peter singer gets is way)I have enough to eat, I've got a roof over my head, I can go out whenever want to without an escorts. Some people in the world I'm sure they would just love a life like mine.

yes they "look" happy when you work with them... but sadly - with their mental capacity of young children, they are dependent on others and their parents die. Who are left to take care of them? the state? Not always the relatives are willing to take them in. Working with them and caring for them 24/7 are a completely different world. You as a worker do not have to care for them financially and socially so you're missing out another half of the reality....... like Palin and her down-syndrome kid.

A responsible mother has to think about the future of her disabled child in case she deceases.

 

[Oceanbreeze]

I never said that deafness WAS a decapitating disability. But neither is downs syndrome or spina bifida. Believe me they can also cope. True some disabilities are more severe then others.

Sometimes for the disabled person themselves to have a severe mental and physical disability is not a problem. You have to remember that they have the mental capacity of very young children and they are often HAPPY. I've worked with people like that so I should know. Sometimes people with lesser disabilities who are more aware of what they don't have can suffer more but if you think like me and make yourself think of everything you DO have and not ever look at the negative aspects of deafblindness then you can feel happier that way. After all Nobody wants to kill me, (unless peter singer gets is way)I have enough to eat, I've got a roof over my head, I can go out whenever want to without an escorts. Some people in the world I'm sure they would just love a life like mine.

Get real. You don't have a clue.

 

[dreama]

You know, I have to find this interesting coming from your P.O.V.

The reality is, There are no such normal and blissful childhoods or otherwise, everyone on this earth would probably be smiling as huge as Bob on the Viagra commercial does, and we probably would be clueless as well.

The point is - Whether there's an abortion involved or not, It will always remain a dicey issue when it comes to raise a child with a disability. Sure, people would say we are just aborting these disabled/non disabled fetus to make our lives easier but in fact, it is irrelevant because abortion alone is already a hard decision that a woman can ever make. It does not make things easier as well.

I wouldn't ever presume that abortion would be an easy decision to make. It doesn't make it a right one though. It is always wrong to kill wether the killing was easy to do or not.

 

[KarissaMann05]

Just curious, was she happy with having you or you just think that it would be better for her not to have you? Or you think your own life sucks and you wish you could have not existed?

For me, I am glad I wasn't aborted and since my mother consciously planned to have me and did what she believed was right, I am fine with it. I don't have disabilities other than deafness. She claims that I was never a burden to her and admits she favors me over my sister whom she did NOT plan to have. Favoritism is SO obvious tho.. she "hates" my sister while treating me so well.

But I often wondered.. if my mother tells me, "oops you were an accident and I didn't want you..." I think I'd rather be aborted. That's just an intellectual logic though.

Okay - I know you believe my own questions are sound nonsense to you. However you believe what you prefer to. Okay, let me try again... If you were aborted, what happen to your friends, family, people you know, and go on? What do you think they look like without you?

If you still think those questions are stupid. That's okay, I only wonder. ^_^

Okay, I gotta go and work on my theory for my pro-life belief and for my personal community...