SEE is a language... It's English...

[jillio]

Maybe she speaks slowly, like Al Gore.

I don't know. My husband was from TN., and he spoke so slowly I wanted to finish his sentences. And he still couldn't speak slowly enough to coordinate speech with SEE.

 

[jillio]

Many people point out to me that there's no way to indicate "past tense" such as in verbs when using ASL. Actually you can...by using signing space, mouth movement, and using the orientation of your hands to indicate. In a true bi-bi classroom, the teacher (in this case, me) would model both languages to the students.

Now when I sign a verb, my students (from two months of practice) can tell you which ending to add to the verb (if it's a regular verb)...-ed, -s/-es/-ies, or -ing. How? They now are more aware of the elements of ASL.

I need to learn how to upload a video on here, and I'll be happy to show you.

I will say this...I DO use S.E.E. for specific lessons in the classroom, but always accompanied with ASL. And I do share your view, but in a different way. If I had a deaf child, she would use Cued Speech in conjunction with ASL. Cued Speech was designed to teach literacy (especially those little -ed and -ing stuff) while supporting ASL users. Many people are quick to disregard Cued Speech. From what I've read and seen, I'm shocked it isn't popular...especially in the bi-bi education classroom.

When my son was small, I used some Signed English books put out by Gally. Popular kids stories. He used them, but if you tested him for comprehension afterward, he always re-told the story in ASL. So even with the presentation, kids often are interpreting in their head. In my experience, anyway.

 

[Beowulf]

Well. It is only "Pain in the ass" and is 1.6 seconds long. Normally people speak 120-150 words a minute - thus translating into 2-2.5 words per second.

That is how fast spoken English is if you had to spell it out. Thus my point is, SEE/Rochester method is never as fast as spoken English. Which reinforces the fact we have this great doubt that you are signing SEE as fast as you're speaking.

Maybe she speaks slowly, like Al Gore.

In front of large groups, I used to sign and speak at the same time. For many reasons, I quit doing that. I MUST have my speech interpreted in that situtation. That is also why I quit standup comedy: it is impossible to match my words' meanings and nuances to the signs, etcetera.

 

[GrendelQ]

He is only considered fluent in English if he can write English fluently.
Written English is a language. Signed English is only a representation of the language. Personally I would consider a fluent signer in M.C.E to be fluent in English, but according to the linguistics field, they do not recognize M.C.E. of any form to be a language, thus using that system would not 'count.' M.C.E does not meet all of the criteria of what makes a language a language.

Written English is a mode. Spoken English is a mode. Signed English is a mode. You are literate if you can read and write. You are fluent if you can speak/comprehend OR read/write. Wouldn't fluency apply to all 3 modes?

 

[jillio]

To reiterate, I am not disagreeing that SEE in and of itself is not a "language." maybe I should have titled the thread differently. However, English is a language which I value just as I value ASL as a language. I have been well aware that SEE is MCE, just don't understand why it seems people here seem to dislike English. I'm trying to bridge the gap. Both are valuable and both serve a purpose.

No one in here dislikes English. What gives you that impression? We simply don't see the need to re-invent the wheel. You have English in all it's forms, and you have ASL, which has evolved to address the communication needs of a deaf population. Why re-invent something that already works just to try and make it appear closer to a different language that evolved to adress the needs of the hearing?

 

[jillio]

In front of large groups, I used to sign and speak at the same time. For many reasons, I quit doing that. I MUST have my speech interpreted in that situtation. That is also why I quit standup comedy: it is impossible to match my words' meanings and nuances to the signs, etcetera.

Exactly. In any language there are concepts and nuances which cannot be literally translated. I always use the following example:

Sign **my nose is running** in an MCE and visually it is processed as if the nose has gotten down off the face and is running across the room. Sign the same thing in ASL, and there is no mistake what is being communicated.

 

[CSign]

You're funny Reba ;-) actually I don't speak slowly, I speak and sign at a natural pace. Being a hearing person with no experience with sign language when my child was born, I had to make a choice. Stumble through ASL and not provide a complete and good language model, or use SEE to support the language I already knew. I was proficient in English, and I had familiarized myself with the linguistic ramifications of being DHH. I wanted to provide him with clear access to language, and I wanted him to obtain a mastery if English which is expected of those going to school in the U.S. I also knew it would be easier for me to learn SEE rather than ASL since I was already proficient. I want to be clear though, I didn't take the easy way out. I attended classes, skillshops, and practiced everyday. I made the effort, just as I am continuing in my efforts to become fluent in ASL. It comes down to bring able to provide a clear and accurate language model, and I knew I would be most effective doing that through SEE. I would have been a poor ASL model for him in the beginning, however I could be a great model for him with English. I love reading, I love writing... I wanted my son to be able to appreciate the same thing. I wanted my son to go to college and be able to read the text books with a clear understanding of what's written on the page. I love English, and all the words that make up the language.
In terms of waiting until he was older, I wanted him to have a solid base in English so he could obtain all these things. As I mentioned before, there are different ways to achieve the same end. This was the road I chose, and I don't regret it for a second. ;-) I must say that our public education system does not really support much of anything when it comes to educating DHH children, nor supporting the families. That is a for a different thread though...

 

[CSign]

Jillio, I've heard that example before. What I take issue with is that implies a DHH child lacks the ability to comprehend that one word can have multiple meanings. Hearing children get it, why wouldn't deaf children? They are able to understand if you take the time to explain to them the differences. With SEE, you would use modification/and or placement to convey the sentence. You would sign, "my nose is running" and the running would come from your nose. I know that DHH children can grasp the difference if someone initially takes the time to explain it to them. I don't usually need to tell my son more than once or twice before he gets it. Just like "right" is another word for correct, or it can be turning right. Depending on the context of the sentence, and the placement of the sign understanding us achieved.

 

[jillio]

You're funny Reba ;-) actually I don't speak slowly, I speak and sign at a natural pace. Being a hearing person with no experience with sign language when my child was born, I had to make a choice. Stumble through ASL and not provide a complete and good language model, or use SEE to support the language I already knew. I was proficient in English, and I had familiarized myself with the linguistic ramifications of being DHH. I wanted to provide him with clear access to language, and I wanted him to obtain a mastery if English which is expected of those going to school in the U.S. I also knew it would be easier for me to learn SEE rather than ASL since I was already proficient. I want to be clear though, I didn't take the easy way out. I attended classes, skillshops, and practiced everyday. I made the effort, just as I am continuing in my efforts to become fluent in ASL. It comes down to bring able to provide a clear and accurate language model, and I knew I would be most effective doing that through SEE. I would have been a poor ASL model for him in the beginning, however I could be a great model for him with English. I love reading, I love writing... I wanted my son to be able to appreciate the same thing. I wanted my son to go to college and be able to read the text books with a clear understanding of what's written on the page. I love English, and all the words that make up the language. In terms of waiting until he was older, I wanted him to have a solid base in English so he could obtain all these things. As I mentioned before, there are different ways to achieve the same end. This was the road I chose, and I don't regret it for a second. ;-) I must say that our public education system does not really support much of anything when it comes to educating DHH children, nor supporting the families. That is a for a different thread though...

Same here. My son is now a grad student in psychology...and he, myself, and his professors credit ASL with his successes.

The question to be asked is not what is easier for the parent, but what is in the best interest of the child.

 

[jillio]

Jillio, I've heard that example before. What I take issue with is that implies a DHH child lacks the ability to comprehend that one word can have multiple meanings. Hearing children get it, why wouldn't deaf children? They are able to understand if you take the time to explain to them the differences. With SEE, you would use modification/and or placement to convey the sentence. You would sign, "my nose is running" and the running would come from your nose. I know that DHH children can grasp the difference if someone initially takes the time to explain it to them. I don't usually need to tell my son more than once or twice before he gets it. Just like "right" is another word for correct, or it can be turning right. Depending on the context of the sentence, and the placement of the sign understanding us achieved.

Who said that a deaf child has an inability to understand that a word has different meanings? I am talking about cognitive processing functions. If you are using ASL, you don't need to take the added time to explain it in detail. The explanation is contained in the language. It would intrepret into the same English sentence. That is how the child learns contextual meaning. For a child to acquire language appropriately...the only way they will achieve fluency and transfer the skills to learning another language is to have unimpeded access. If you have to continually explain and clarify, you are impeding the natural acquisition process.

 

[sallylou]

I grew up hearing. I'm an over-educated nerd so I'm very proficient at both speaking and writing in English. I can't use SEE. The whole system is just too overwhelming! I don't feel that way about ASL. Even though the structure of ASL is different from English, it's easy to learn and works well for me.

 

[shel90]

One question...

Does it work if one takes spoken English and change the spoken form to follow ASL syntax?

 

[sallylou]

No! It doesn't work at all. I have to "turn off" English in my brain. I don't translate when I' m signing. I have to switch into "ASL mode" while I'm signing. English doesn't translate directly into ASL. Trying to translate only confuses me.

I guess that it's impossible for me to translate from a spoken language to a visual language.

 

[deafskeptic]

I think i'd get strange looks if I said store go me outloud in English.

 

[CSign]

Do you not have to ever explain what a new word means in ASL?
I think we both know the answer to that. In ASL you have one sign that conveys the concept of different words with similar meanings. In English, and MCE you are expanding upon their vocabulary. What is the problem with that?
Why is it wrong for me to use a tool to assist my son in his mastery of English? Why is it wrong, or "ineffective" if he is achieving more than what's expected of him at this age?
By what standards are you judging what's in the best interest of the child? By our standards (which are quite high), we have made every move and every step in his best interest. We can feel good about our choices by the many positive things we see from him every day. I will every day do what is best fort son, regardless of what it means for me. Perhaps you should take the time to really read what I wrote, it seems you have missed my point. I didn't take the "easy way out." I made a choice that required a lot of hard work in order to provide my child with a complete language model. Why reinvent the wheel? Why not use signs that support the spoken language that is being used around him? I would never not sign with and around my child. The use of true ASL does not include spoken language. He is surrounded by spoken language in his day to day interactions with society. I am giving him access to those interactions which he would not otherwise have access to.

 

[jillio]

One question...

Does it work if one takes spoken English and change the spoken form to follow ASL syntax?

Excellent question. And a very good reason why it doesn't work.

 

[jillio]

No! It doesn't work at all. I have to "turn off" English in my brain. I don't translate when I' m signing. I have to switch into "ASL mode" while I'm signing. English doesn't translate directly into ASL. Trying to translate only confuses me.

I guess that it's impossible for me to translate from a spoken language to a visual language.

Exactly. We were discussing the other day about feeling an actual cognitive shift when communicating in ASL and not having to interpret into English for understanding.

 

[jillio]

Do you not have to ever explain what a new word means in ASL?
I think we both know the answer to that. In ASL you have one sign that conveys the concept of different words with similar meanings. In English, and MCE you are expanding upon their vocabulary. What is the problem with that?
Why is it wrong for me to use a tool to assist my son in his mastery of English? Why is it wrong, or "ineffective" if he is achieving more than what's expected of him at this age?
By what standards are you judging what's in the best interest of the child? By our standards (which are quite high), we have made every move and every step in his best interest. We can feel good about our choices by the many positive things we see from him every day. I will every day do what is best fort son, regardless of what it means for me. Perhaps you should take the time to really read what I wrote, it seems you have missed my point. I didn't take the "easy way out." I made a choice that required a lot of hard work in order to provide my child with a complete language model. Why reinvent the wheel? Why not use signs that support the spoken language that is being used around him? I would never not sign with and around my child. The use of true ASL does not include spoken language. He is surrounded by spoken language in his day to day interactions with society. I am giving him access to those interactions which he would not otherwise have access to.

There is nothing wrong with you using a tool to assist your son in his mastery of English. But that is not all you are doing. You are also using it as a communication method. In fact, if you are signing and speaking at the same time, you are not even using SEE as intended. You are using a method known as SSS, or sign supported speech.

People who have acquired ASL as a child also are surrounded by spoken language. They have no problem understanding it. In fact, the highest performing group of deaf children are those who have ASL as their native language. Deaf of Deaf.

 

[shel90]

Do you not have to ever explain what a new word means in ASL?
I think we both know the answer to that. In ASL you have one sign that conveys the concept of different words with similar meanings. In English, and MCE you are expanding upon their vocabulary. What is the problem with that?
Why is it wrong for me to use a tool to assist my son in his mastery of English? Why is it wrong, or "ineffective" if he is achieving more than what's expected of him at this age?
By what standards are you judging what's in the best interest of the child? By our standards (which are quite high), we have made every move and every step in his best interest. We can feel good about our choices by the many positive things we see from him every day. I will every day do what is best fort son, regardless of what it means for me. Perhaps you should take the time to really read what I wrote, it seems you have missed my point. I didn't take the "easy way out." I made a choice that required a lot of hard work in order to provide my child with a complete language model. Why reinvent the wheel? Why not use signs that support the spoken language that is being used around him? I would never not sign with and around my child. The use of true ASL does not include spoken language. He is surrounded by spoken language in his day to day interactions with society. I am giving him access to those interactions which he would not otherwise have access to.

So, ASL should have never been changed to follow the syntax of spoken language.

I am glad you are learning sign language and use it with your son. That's great.

However, to say that SEE is a language is inaccurate. We cant say spoken ASL is a language, right?

 

[sallylou]

Why is it wrong for me to use a tool to assist my son in his mastery of English?

It's not wrong to use SEE as a tool. SEE is a tool, not a language.

My point is that communicating with SEE all of the time would be burdensome and overwhelming for me. And I'm an accomplished adult. It stands to reason that a child might feel the same way.

I can make my own decisions regarding when to wear hearing aids and try to communicate orally, when to use ASL, and when to communicate in written language. Ideally, a child would have all of those choices to met all of her needs.