Risk of Bacterial Meningitis and Death in Children with Cochlear Implants

LTHFAdvocate said:
Yet they show up in the grey box marked "Originally Posted by LTHFAdvocate"
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Exactly what # post are you referring to. In order for your words to show up as a quote, I had to click on your original post. It automatically copies it when you click on "reply with quote". Are yousaying something was copied that was not in your post?
 
#214 -- your answers are intermixed with my quotes, and it looks like I said most of it (at least the way I am reading it)

jillio said:
Exactly what # post are you referring to. In order for your words to show up as a quote, I had to click on your original post. It automatically copies it when you click on "reply with quote". Are yousaying something was copied that was not in your post?
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jillio said:
Yes, protocols do change over time, and when it is discovered that there is a procedure that caqn reduce the risk, then it becomes standard protocol.
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If only it were that simple. It isn't. It can take years before protocols change, and university hospitals (where over 1/2 of implants take place) are even more hierarchical and inflexible on this than small clinics.

jillio said:
Likewise,the implant surgeon who fails to insure that a patient has been vaccinated, and that patient later contracts bacterial memingitis as a result, the surgeon is resposnible under the same premise of expertise.
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Again, a total oversimplification. Even when the standard of care is raised due to expertise, a plaintiff would still has to prove proximate cause and actual cause for a negligence case.
 
LTHFAdvocate said:
#214 -- your answers are intermixed with my quotes, and it looks like I said most of it (at least the way I am reading it)
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Guess I should have changed the font color. I thought the space was sufficient, particulary since it was a reply to an earlier post, and clarification is readily available should one choose to took.

For all purposes, the paragraph in the center talking about protocols and surgeon responsibility are my words.
 
LTHFAdvocate said:
If only it were that simple. It isn't. It can take years before protocols change, and university hospitals (where over 1/2 of implants take place) are even more hierarchical and inflexible on this than small clinics.



Again, a total oversimplification. Even when the standard of care is raised due to expertise, a plaintiff would still has to prove proximate cause and actual cause for a negligence case.
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And that would not be difficult to do if a surgeon knew of a risk, and did not insure that the patient was protected against it. Particularly so in close proximity.
 
But if the surgeon informed the patient of the risk and the patient (or her parents) blew off the vaccine, that is NOT the surgeon's fault. Personal responsibility needs to fit in here somewhere, patients cannot hold other's responsible for their poor outcomes when it is due to their individual action or inaction.

Know anyone who has successfully sued a restaurant for food poisoning? It doesn't happen exactly for the same proximate cause proof problems.

jillio said:
And that would not be difficult to do if a surgeon knew of a risk, and did not insure that the patient was protected against it. Particularly so in close proximity.
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LTHFAdvocate said:
But if the surgeon informed the patient of the risk and the patient (or her parents) blew off the vaccine, that is NOT the surgeon's fault. Personal responsibility needs to fit in here somewhere, patients cannot hold other's responsible for their poor outcomes when it is due to their individual action or inaction.

Know anyone who has successfully sued a restaurant for food poisoning? It doesn't happen exactly for the same proximate cause proof problems.
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Hence, requiring documentation. If there is documentation in the chart, then obviously the aprent did blow off the surgeon's reccommendations. And if there is no documentaiton, obviously the parent failed to follow reccommendations. Therefore, no surgery.
 
LTHFAdvocate said:
But if the surgeon informed the patient of the risk and the patient (or her parents) blew off the vaccine, that is NOT the surgeon's fault. Personal responsibility needs to fit in here somewhere, patients cannot hold other's responsible for their poor outcomes when it is due to their individual action or inaction.

Know anyone who has successfully sued a restaurant for food poisoning? It doesn't happen exactly for the same proximate cause proof problems.
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Fallicious argument. Restaurants are not held to the ethical standards or criteria of expertise and scope of practice that a medical professional is.
 
Standard of care and causation have nothing to do with each other except for the fact that they are both required to prove negligence. Or so they taught me in law school.

jillio said:
Fallicious argument. Restaurants are not held to the ethical standards or criteria of expertise and scope of practice that a medical professional is.
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LTHFAdvocate said:
Standard of care and causation have nothing to do with each other except for the fact that they are both required to prove negligence. Or so they taught me in law school.
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And if a physican fails to insure that a patient is vaccinated, thus increasing that patien's risk for bacterial meningitis, then that physician has not adhered to standards of care. And you are telling me that a judge and jury would not hold a physican to a higher ethical standard and a greater degree of responsibility than they would a line cook?
 
Hey, you two; let's go have some coffee or something, huh? :giggle:
 
[QUO1TE=Tousi;855674]Hey, you two; let's go have some coffee or something, huh? :giggle:[/QUOTE]

Sure!
 
IT'S NOT CAUSATION !!!! You can't prove that the lack of a vaccination is the cause of contracting the disease. People get meningitis even WITH vaccinations, because it doesn't cover all strains. Vaccinations are found (years later sometimes) to become less effective over time. Vaccinations don't always "take" -- either because of something quirky with the individual getting them, or the vaccine coming from a a bad batch. There could be numerous reasons why it is not automatically the surgeons fault. You need ALL elements to win a negligence case, not just a breach of standard of care !!!!

jillio said:
And if a physican fails to insure that a patient is vaccinated, thus increasing that patien's risk for bacterial meningitis, then that physician has not adhered to standards of care. And you are telling me that a judge and jury would not hold a physican to a higher ethical standard and a greater degree of responsibility than they would a line cook?
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LTHFAdvocate said:
IT'S NOT CAUSATION !!!! You can't prove that the lack of a vaccination is the cause of contracting the disease. People get meningitis even WITH vaccinations, because it doesn't cover all strains. Vaccinations are found (years later sometimes) to become less effective over time. Vaccinations don't always "take" -- either because of something quirky with the individual getting them, or the vaccine coming from a a bad batch. There could be numerous reasons why it is not automatically the surgeons fault. You need ALL elements to win a negligence case, not just a breach of standard of care !!!!
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You can prove tht the risk was increased. Depending upon the stats used to determine the variance between the implanted population and the non-implanted population, a significant risk can be asssumed to be the causative factor. And, if , in the other cases as you have cited, the physician insured that the vaccine was documented, then he is absolved of responsibility for other causative factors. He adhered to accepted standards of practice, and therefore cannot be held responsible for factors not under his control. However, it is under his control to insure that the patient is vaccinated prior to surgery.
 
LTHFAdvocate said:
IT'S NOT CAUSATION !!!! You can't prove that the lack of a vaccination is the cause of contracting the disease. People get meningitis even WITH vaccinations, because it doesn't cover all strains. Vaccinations are found (years later sometimes) to become less effective over time. Vaccinations don't always "take" -- either because of something quirky with the individual getting them, or the vaccine coming from a a bad batch. There could be numerous reasons why it is not automatically the surgeons fault. You need ALL elements to win a negligence case, not just a breach of standard of care !!!!
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Hmmm, am I imagining this or what; you sound almost giddy, resting in the legal knowledge that the doctor (or whomever is the one to make sure the vaccination takes place, whether or not it works) wouldn't be at fault. I mean, come on, people in this profession, I imagine, at their basest came to it through altruism, the desire to heal and all that stuff, eh wot?
 
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