Reverse Discrimination Case

[jillio]

So in another words. Minorities can not make the score? Is that what you are saying?

I do understand about locations and schooling. but isn't that discrimination on itself to say?? I can not make the score because I am of a different race or culture??

Skin color, does not affect the ability to think and learn.

No, that is not what I am saying at all. Skin color isn't even a factor. And it is particularly not a factor when it comes to predicting ability and job success. It is just a way of identifying a member of a minority group. In fact, that is exactly what this lawsuit is saying. I am saying that the problem is more often in the test than in the test taker.

 

[lsfoster]

The question is: Does the disparities in test scores actually represent disparitues in ability to lead and perform the job, or does it simply reflect problems with the validity of the test? That is the whole issue behind the lawsuit.

Just because it "sounds ridiculous" to you doesn't necessarily mean that it is. Once again we are back to validity. And what you have referred to here is surface validity. Just because it looks valid, or invalid, on the surface, doesn't mean that it actually is. That is why there are specific ways to determine such.

I never said anything about their scores saying they are lacking in ability. I'm saying that if their culture can affect how they interpret things, that can make them less qualified to deal with certain situations. On the job, not on the exam. I still don't see how you can argue one and ignore the other.

 

[jillio]

I never said anything about their scores saying they are lacking in ability. I'm saying that if their culture can affect how they interpret things, that can make them less qualified to deal with certain situations. On the job, not on the exam. I still don't see how you can argue one and ignore the other.

But that is what this is all about. They are being promoted or not promoted based on test scores that do not predict ability.

 

[lsfoster]

So in another words. Minorities can not make the score? Is that what you are saying?

I do understand about locations and schooling. but isn't that discrimination on itself to say?? I can not make the score because I am of a different race or culture??

Skin color, does not affect the ability to think and learn.

I agree, Babyblue.

 

[Babyblue]

No, that is not what I am saying at all. Skin color isn't even a factor. And it is particularly not a factor when it comes to predicting ability and job success. It is just a way of identifying a member of a minority group. In fact, that is exactly what this lawsuit is saying.

OK.. Gotcha! Just wanted to be clear on what is being said.

I do agree, that a written test is ridiculous.

I had a co worker, that had a daughter, that was an A and B honor roll in her Senior year in High school.

She failed the F-CAT. Due to she does not test well. She knows her stuff. Did all her homework. Made good grades. But she could not Graduate with her Class. They held her back.

What a bunch of Crock!

 

[jillio]

OK.. Gotcha! Just wanted to be clear on what is being said.

I do agree, that a written test is ridiculous.

I had a co worker, that had a daughter, that was an A and B honor roll in her Senior year in High school.

She failed the F-CAT. Due to she does not test well. She knows her stuff. Did all her homework. Made good grades. But she could not Graduate with her Class. They held her back.

What a bunch of Crock!

Exactly! Not testing well can most certainly be a factor. That is one of the reasons that the SAT has very low predictability when it comes to the ability to perform well in college. And punishing a child by holding her back based on a single test score is absurd. They need to look at her record of performance and consider the fact that perhaps she doesn't test well, perhaps she was sick that day, perhaps she was distracted that day....any number of things could be responsible for her poor performance on that particular test on that particular day.

And to decide whether someone is eligible for a promotion based on a single test score is just as absurd.

 

[lsfoster]

If you're going to argue that culture can affect how someone interprets a question on an exam, then it's just as likely that it affects how they interpret a situation from a high position, and that can very easily affect their qualification. I really don't see how you could argue one and not the other....

But that is what this is all about. They are being promoted or not promoted based on test scores that do not predict ability.

I mean in the post above. My point is that if the test can be invalid because their interpretation can be affected by their cultural differences, then their qualification can also be affected by those same differences, whether on this test or any other test. Just in a general sense, if cultural differences can make enough difference to change their interpretation of multiple-choice questions, then they can clearly make enough difference to affect how qualified someone is for a promotion that could require them to deal with situations like DareDevel suggested. I'm saying that their cultural backgrounds might make them not as qualified, not necessarily their test results.

 

[jillio]

I mean in the post above. My point is that if the test can be invalid because their interpretation can be affected by their cultural differences, then their qualification can also be affected by those same differences, whether on this test or any other test. Just in a general sense, if cultural differences can make enough difference to change their interpretation of multiple-choice questions, then they can clearly make enough difference to affect how qualified someone is for a promotion that could require them to deal with situations like DareDevel suggested. I'm saying that their cultural backgrounds might make them not as qualified, not necessarily their test results.

And dealing with a situation in a different way does not imply that it is a less effective way. We are now back to ability. You are confusing the issues.

 

[Babyblue]

Exactly! Not testing well can most certainly be a factor. That is one of the reasons that the SAT has very low predictability when it comes to the ability to perform well in college.

A lot of parents and teachers are trying to fight to prevent this. They feel it is not testing the kids... It is testing the schools to make sure the teachers are teaching the kids what they are suppose to learn. The test also based on how much funding, the school will get the following year.

 

[jillio]

A lot of parents and teachers are trying to fight to prevent this. They feel it is not testing the kids... It is testing the schools to make sure the teachers are teaching the kids what they are suppose to learn. The test also based on how much funding, the school will get the following year.

Yeppers. It is called "teaching to the test." and has had disastrous effects on our kids' eduction.

And that is where NCLB has failed. They say, "Well, you are not performing up to standard, so our response is to give you less money and even higher standards." Makes absolutely no sense.

 

[lsfoster]

And dealing with a situation in a different way does not imply that it is an less effective way. You are confusing the issues.

Don't see what's confusing. If it can make them less effective at interpreting a question, it can make them less effective at interpreting other things, too. You can't have one and not the other. I didn't say it is less effective, but it has just as much possibility to be.

 

[jillio]

Don't see what's confusing. If it can make them less effective at interpreting a question, it can make them less effective at interpreting other things, too. You can't have one and not the other. I didn't say it is less effective, but it has just as much possibility to be.

Again, different interpretation does not equate to less effective interpretation. Andif you want to go that route, someone could interpret the question so as to come up with a correct answer according to the test writer, and still be a less than effective leader. That is why this is all about predictive validity. Or rather, the lack of.

Did you ever stop to think that interpreting a question differently could actually be indicative of critical thinking skills? Critical thinking is a very valuable skill when it comes to leadership.

 

[Babyblue]

Yeppers. It is called "teaching to the test." and has had disastrous effects on our kids' eduction.

And that is where NCLB has failed. They say, "Well, you are not performing up to standard, so our response is to give you less money and even higher standards." Makes absolutely no sense.

exactly!! They even grade the schools like they do with hotels. With Star rankings. My kids right now go to a 4 star school when last year they were the top school...a 5 star! Also if they go out of ratio and over crowd the class rooms they lose funding. You would think the ones that performs lower.. would be the ones that needs more funding and more money to make more room and to be able to hire more tutors and teachers.

The Whole thing is outrageous. It is supposed to be about "no child, left behind act" The NCLB.. But this whole thing is doing nothing, but setting them up for failure.

Ridiculous! I say.

 

[jillio]

exactly!! They even grade the schools like they do with hotels. With Star rankings. My kids right now go to a 4 star school when last year they were the top school...a 5 star! Also if they go out of ratio and over crowd the class rooms they lose funding. You would think the ones that performs lower.. would be the ones that needs more funding and more money to make more room and to be able to hire more tutors and teachers.

The Whole thing is outrageous. It is supposed to be about "no child, left behind act" The NCLB.. But this whole thing is doing nothing, but setting them up for failure.

Ridiculous! I say.

And the sad part is, the schools with the higher scores are not necessarily doing a better job of actually teaching students. It only means that they are doing a better job of coaching students on how to answer the questions on the test.

And with that, I'm signing off. I have to get up in the morning and finish making up a test for a class. I want to make sure that it is valid, and tests the student's ability to apply knowledge to various situations, rather than their ability to memorize.

 

[lsfoster]

Again, different interpretation does not equate to less effective interpretation. Andif you want to go that route, someone could interpret the question so as to come up with a correct answer according to the test writer, and still be a less than effective leader. That is why this is all about predictive validity. Or rather, the lack of.

I'm not even sure how to respond to that. If it doesn't mean it's less effective, then they shouldn't have a reason to complain about the exam. If, on the other hand, it could lead to less effective interpretation, then that fact applies to their qualifications just as much as their test-taking.

 

[jillio]

I'm not even sure how to respond to that. If it doesn't mean it's less effective, then they shouldn't have a reason to complain about the exam. If, on the other hand, it could lead to less effective interpretation, then that fact applies to their qualifications just as much as their test-taking.

You still don't get it. The test is not checking for effective leadership ability, but is being used to determine leadership ability. How about if we just give you one test that does not accurately reflect your knowledge or your potential, and use that one score to determine whether you get a diploma or not? Or maybe we will give you an assessment for a mental illness that has been shown to be biased against the homosexual population, and use the results of that single assessment to determine whether you are labeled as mentally ill? I don't think you would be satisfied with that approach at all. Yet you are supporting exactly the same in your arguments.

 

[Babyblue]

And the sad part is, the schools with the higher scores are not necessarily doing a better job of actually teaching students. It only means that they are doing a better job of coaching students on how to answer the questions on the test.

Exactly... Schools promote it! by doing A.R. books.. the more books they read they get rewarded by just simply telling the teacher what the book is about.

My kids loved it. I do not disagree with doing the A.R. But just using it as an example.

Too easy for kids, to ask some one else about the story, or to over hear in a discussion about the book. To be able to say. "This book is about...." When they actually have not read it.

So it gives the teachers and student, a false sense of thinking, the child has reading comprehension. When in fact the child never read the book in the first place.

I feel the A.R. books do help prepare a child for reading comprehension if it is done under guidance. But it is usually not. I have seen many parents sign the log. Their child have read this book when they actually have not.

 

[lsfoster]

You still don't get it. The test is not checking for effective leadership ability, but is being used to determine leadership ability. How about if we just give you one test that does not accurately reflect your knowledge or your potential, and use that one score to determine whether you get a diploma or not? Or maybe we will give you an assessment for a mental illness that has been shown to be biased against the homosexual population, and use the results of that single assessment to determine whether you are labeled as mentally ill? I don't think you would be satisfied with that approach at all. Yet you are supporting exactly the same in your arguments.

You have no way of knowing what the test checked for. You don't know what was asked, or how the answers were evaluated and interpreted. Again, you are just discounting the exam without knowing anything about it. I'm not supporting anything. I'm not supporting the firefighters complaining on either side, I'm not supporting the test, I'm not supporting any culture over any other. What I'm saying is that you're trying to have your cake and eat it to.

Culture can affect interpretation. You're the one that's been saying that this whole time. My point is that if you believe that, then this can make someone less qualified for a certain position. I'm not talking about how they score on an exam, I'm talking about how qualified they are in general, exam or no exam.

 

[Chef]

This debate is doomed to keep going around in circles.

You don't know the questions on the test and whether they were open to interpretation or not.

If you don't know the information required to get the job then you shouldn't have the job, plain and simple. You may be a great firefighter and a great leader but if you don't know things like the proper radio codes, names, functions, and properties of certain chemicals, and the specs on the equipment then you just shouldn't be in charge. This is essential information.

Don't give people a crutch. 60% of the test was about memorization, memorization of information that is crucial to performing the job. If you don't have it memorized then you shouldn't be in a position where you are responsible for knowing it.

Could you imagine if doctors didn't have to memorize specific things because apparently memorization is for white people only? "He's bleeding from the, oh what's it called, the veiny thing near the liver. I forget exactly what drug to give in a situation like this. I'll go ask a white person, they're good at memorizing, maybe they'll know."

Your brand of racism is the worst kind, you don't even realize that you're doing it.

 

[lsfoster]

This debate is doomed to keep going around in circles.

You don't know the questions on the test and whether they were open to interpretation or not.

If you don't know the information required to get the job then you shouldn't have the job, plain and simple. You may be a great firefighter and a great leader but if you don't know things like the proper radio codes, names, functions, and properties of certain chemicals, and the specs on the equipment then you just shouldn't be in charge. This is essential information.

Don't give people a crutch. 60% of the test was about memorization, memorization of information that is crucial to performing the job. If you don't have it memorized then you shouldn't be in a position where you are responsible for knowing it.

Could you imagine if doctors didn't have to memorize specific things because apparently memorization is for white people only? "He's bleeding from the, oh what's it called, the veiny thing near the liver. I forget exactly what drug to give in a situation like this. I'll go ask a white person, they're good at memorizing, maybe they'll know."

Your brand of racism is the worst kind, you don't even realize that you're doing it.

Exactly how I feel, Chef. These kinds of situations also end up creating more racism. My dad was at a seminar once, and the guy was basically saying that they made some med school entrance exams easier so that they could have a more diverse pool of applicants to choose from. All he could think was that they're basically telling you, "Hey, if you go see a doctor, and he's a minority, there's this much of a chance that he only got in because we lowered our standards." There would be no reason to think that if they didn't, which means that their actions create this doubt in your mind.

I think that giving people a crutch, as you said, is not only offensive to the people you do it to, since it's like saying they couldn't do it without the crutch, but it also makes other people question whether they did need the crutch. All in all, not a good solution as far as I can see.