Reverse Discrimination Case

[lsfoster]

Correct, testing for memorization does not test the ability to apply. However, you DO need to memorize in order to apply.

However... I STILL don't understand what being black have to do ANYTHING?? I understand for the mentally handicapped or people who think differently, etc. But uhh don't black people have the same brains as white people....?

Yes, they do. This is why I said above that I think this is more an issue of social status and education. The article throws in this quote about how minorities test worse, and somehow everything then becomes about the tests being biased, and defective, and favoring a certain group. What nobody seems to be willing to say, however, is that in America, minorities are still more likely to be in a lower socio-economic group than caucasians, and that multiple studies have shown that lower income households value education and learning less. I don't understand how it's more "pc" to say that minorities don't test well and that somehow the test isn't valid, when it's completely ignoring the real issue: generally, they don't test well because they haven't been brought up to value education, and therefore they don't know the material they are being tested on as well as others.

If you'd like to read more, I recommend Annette Lareau, especially her book, "Unequal Childhoods". It's a really interesting read.

In a case like this, being black, white, or hispanic shouldn't make a difference. Tests like these do need to cover some "memorization" to ensure that people know the information required. I don't see what type of "cultural" bias there would be, since the questions probably have very little room for interpretation, and since I'm guessing (as is the case with the majority of firehouses) that most of the people working there grew up locally.

If there is an actual reason that the test was biased, then I'm all for them throwing out the scores. My problem is that I have seen and heard of too many cases where the "bias" is that people who didn't know as much did poorly, and they happened to be minorities. To me, that doesn't make the test invalid.

 

[jillio]

Yes, they do. This is why I said above that I think this is more an issue of social status and education. The article throws in this quote about how minorities test worse, and somehow everything then becomes about the tests being biased, and defective, and favoring a certain group. What nobody seems to be willing to say, however, is that in America, minorities are still more likely to be in a lower socio-economic group than caucasians, and that multiple studies have shown that lower income households value education and learning less. I don't understand how it's more "pc" to say that minorities don't test well and that somehow the test isn't valid, when it's completely ignoring the real issue: generally, they don't test well because they haven't been brought up to value education, and therefore they don't know the material they are being tested on as well as others.

If you'd like to read more, I recommend Annette Lareau, especially her book, "Unequal Childhoods". It's a really interesting read.

In a case like this, being black, white, or hispanic shouldn't make a difference. Tests like these do need to cover some "memorization" to ensure that people know the information required. I don't see what type of "cultural" bias there would be, since the questions probably have very little room for interpretation, and since I'm guessing (as is the case with the majority of firehouses) that most of the people working there grew up locally.

If there is an actual reason that the test was biased, then I'm all for them throwing out the scores. My problem is that I have seen and heard of too many cases where the "bias" is that people who didn't know as much did poorly, and they happened to be minorities. To me, that doesn't make the test invalid.

Which, once again, goes back to exactly what I have been saying all along. Ability to test well on memorization has very low correlation to ability to perform occupationally, unless memorization is a specific requirement of the job. And whether you choose to accept the fact or not, culture is always an issue in testing and assessment. That is widely accepted by those who are licensed to give tests, those who design tests, those who standardize scores, and those who determine reliability and validity of various instruments.

All questions have room for interpretation.

 

[lsfoster]

Which, once again, goes back to exactly what I have been saying all along. Ability to test well on memorization has very low correlation to ability to perform occupationally, unless memorization is a specific requirement of the job.

Multiple posts now have provided ways that memorization could be crucial to the job. There is no concrete evidence that it is or isn't. Therefore the fact that memorization factored in does not just invalidate the test.

And whether you choose to accept the fact or not, culture is always an issue in testing and assessment. That is widely accepted by those who are licensed to give tests, those who design tests, those who standardize scores, and those who determine reliability and validity of various instruments.

There has also been no concrete reason given for any cultural difference between the people taking the test. If they all grew up in the same culture, their race should not affect their ability to take the test. If you're going to argue that their race affected their culture enough, then you'd have to somehow account for all the cultures of the "white" firefighters, and also explain how the "culture" they were raised in would make it harder for them to take this specific test.

All questions have room for interpretation.

In tests like these, the questions have very little room for interpretation. They also have very specific, and generally available answers.

 

[jillio]

In tests like these, the questions have very little room for interpretation. They also have very specific, and generally available answers.

Specific answers are dependent upon interpretation of the question, and interpretation of the question is culturally bound. Just because an answer has been determined to be "correct" from one perspective does not mean that it is necessarily correct from another standpoint. Little room for interpretation means that there is still room for interpretation. And interpretation of the question is not the only factor involved. Scores and the meaning of those scores must also be interpreted, and unless it is done from a culturally relative perspective, the results are biased to a degree.

And according to the brief, the Society for Industrial and Organizational Psychology found problems with the validity of this particular test. They identified specific areas that compromised the validity.

 

[Babyblue]

Thinking about all of this... Has made me think about the FCAT, or other state standardized testings. For School age children.

The Testing that are done by them, do not base the testing on race or culture. They are all given the test.

 

[jillio]

Thinking about all of this... Has made me think about the FCAT, or other state standardized testings. For School age children.

The Testing that are done by them, do not base the testing on race or culture. They are all given the test.

When the scores are standardized for tests of this nature, a representative sample of the population for whom the test is designed is used to standardize the scores. That means that the population used to standardize the scores will contain a representative number of minorities. The standardized score then reflects that.

However, if a representative sample hasnot been used, then the scores must be interpreted with that in mind if given to a student that would not fit the representative sample. For example, the WISC-IV IQ test is standardized. However, when this assessment is given to a Native American, it will, more often than not, appear that the individual has an LD from the scores. When further assessment is done, it is found that they individual does not have an LD, but the scores are the result of cultural influence.

 

[Daredevel7]

I guess I just don't see how culture factors in for something so technical such as firefighting. I am currently training to be a Rescue Diver, which in a way is similar to firefighting, and I'm trying to imagine how questions could be different. I can't.

I just realized something though.... this is for a promotion. Which means it's probably not for firefighting but rather managing or leading a group of firefighters, which means it probably has questions that ask how you deal with conflicts in your team, which can be heavily influenced by culture....

 

[jillio]

I guess I just don't see how culture factors in for something so technical such as firefighting. I am currently training to be a Rescue Diver, which in a way is similar to firefighting, and I'm trying to imagine how questions could be different. I can't.

I just realized something though.... this is for a promotion. Which means it's probably not for firefighting but rather managing or leading a group of firefighters, which means it probably has questions that ask how you deal with conflicts in your team, which can be heavily influenced by culture....

Culture figures in when it comes to testing. That doesn't necessarily mean that culture figures into the ability to be a good firefighter. That is the whole point. They are attempting to determine ability through a test that is not testing for ability. And your second paragraph sums it up nicely. In fact, the Society for Industrial and Organizational Psychology determined, according to the brief, that the test did notgive enough weight to leadership ability in the scoring. So it isn't just about the questions...it is also about the weight assigned to specific questions and sub-tests.

 

[Babyblue]

When the scores are standardized for tests of this nature, a representative sample of the population for whom the test is designed is used to standardize the scores. That means that the population used to standardize the scores will contain a representative number of minorities. The standardized score then reflects that.

However, if a representative sample hasnot been used, then the scores must be interpreted with that in mind if given to a student that would not fit the representative sample. For example, the WISC-IV IQ test is standardized. However, when this assessment is given to a Native American, it will, more often than not, appear that the individual has an LD from the scores. When further assessment is done, it is found that they individual does not have an LD, but the scores are the result of cultural influence.

In the state of Florida. If you fail the FCAT.. in 3rd, 7th, or 12th grade... They hold you back for another year in that grade. Does not matter if you are a straight "A" student or not.

 

[lsfoster]

I guess I just don't see how culture factors in for something so technical such as firefighting. I am currently training to be a Rescue Diver, which in a way is similar to firefighting, and I'm trying to imagine how questions could be different. I can't.

I just realized something though.... this is for a promotion. Which means it's probably not for firefighting but rather managing or leading a group of firefighters, which means it probably has questions that ask how you deal with conflicts in your team, which can be heavily influenced by culture....

Completely possible. See, that's what I meant when I said that there needed to be examples of how culture could affect this specific test. But again, I think that it becomes hard to decide whether the cultural difference just makes it harder for them to do well on the test, or whether it does actually make them less qualified for the position.

 

[jillio]

In the state of Florida. If you fail the FCAT.. in 3rd, 7th, or 12th grade... They hold you back for another year in that grade. Does not matter if you are a straight "A" student or not.

Exactly. Which is a big problem with the NCLB legislation. We can thank George Bush for that one.

 

[jillio]

Completely possible. See, that's what I meant when I said that there needed to be examples of how culture could affect this specific test. But again, I think that it becomes hard to decide whether the cultural difference just makes it harder for them to do well on the test, or whether it does actually make them less qualified for the position.

As long as the test is culturally biased, that question cannot be answered accurately. There are very few instances where culture makes one less qualified.

 

[lsfoster]

Exactly. Which is a big problem with the NCLB legislation.

*shiver* NCLB ....

...

 

[jillio]

*shiver* NCLB ....

...

Agreed. But that is exactly what relying on questionable test scores is all about. Basically what NCLB does is say, "Oh, so you are having trouble doing 2 chapters a week. Well, let me give you 4 chapters and see if your performance improves."

 

[rockin'robin]

That's true about the FCAT in Florida.

 

[lsfoster]

As long as the test is culturally biased, that question cannot be answered accurately. There are very few instances where culture makes one less qualified.

If you're going to argue that culture can affect how someone interprets a question on an exam, then it's just as likely that it affects how they interpret a situation from a high position, and that can very easily affect their qualification. I really don't see how you could argue one and not the other....

 

[jillio]

If you're going to argue that culture can affect how someone interprets a question on an exam, then it's just as likely that it affects how they interpret a situation from a high position, and that can very easily affect their qualification. I really don't see how you could argue one and not the other....

Perhaps you don't see it, but the professions responsible for determining the validity and reliability of testing instruments see it very clearly.
Refer back to my explanation of the the WISC-IV. What appears to be true based on a test score is not always what is actuality.

The type of test that is being discussed has very little predictive validity.

 

[lsfoster]

Perhaps you don't see it, but the professions responsible for determining the validity and reliability of testing instruments see if very clearly.

Well then good for them, but I have to say it sounds ridiculous to me. If you're really going to say that someone's culture can make room for interpretation in a very straight-forward question about firefighting techniques, I don't see how it would even be possible that culture wouldn't affect their interpretation of any issues or situations that would arise if they were in a higher-level position. You can't say "culture affects someone's interpretation, but it totally doesn't affect their interpretation..." It doesn't make any sense. I never said that how they interpret that situation will make them less qualified, but that it very easily could. In fact, I think it could just as easily as it could make a test biased against them.

 

[jillio]

Well then good for them, but I have to say it sounds ridiculous to me. If you're really going to say that someone's culture can make room for interpretation in a very straight-forward question about firefighting techniques, I don't see how it would even be possible that culture wouldn't affect their interpretation of any issues or situations that would arise if they were in a higher-level position. You can't say "culture affects someone's interpretation, but it totally doesn't affect their interpretation..." It doesn't make any sense. I never said that how they interpret that situation will make them less qualified, but that it very easily could. In fact, I think it could just as easily as it could make a test biased against them.

The question is: Does the disparities in test scores actually represent disparitues in ability to lead and perform the job, or does it simply reflect problems with the validity of the test? That is the whole issue behind the lawsuit.

Just because it "sounds ridiculous" to you doesn't necessarily mean that it is. Once again we are back to validity. And what you have referred to here is surface validity. Just because it looks valid, or invalid, on the surface, doesn't mean that it actually is. That is why there are specific ways to determine such.

 

[Babyblue]

So in another words. Minorities can not make the score? Is that what you are saying?

I do understand about locations and schooling. but isn't that discrimination on itself to say?? I can not make the score because I am of a different race or culture??

Skin color, does not affect the ability to think and learn.