Reverse Discrimination Case

[jillio]

and the difference between you and them is that they have access to tests, not you.

and we both know that the lower courts are somewhat notoriously known to be politically-motivated and/or uneducated about the issue. Hint - the cyber cases.

That's why they have expert testimony...in the form of the Society for Industrial and Organizational Psychology. And what exactly would the state Supreme Court's motivation be, politically, to dismiss the case? And I have access to the scores that they had access to. I have all the information I need to determine whether disparity was organized by race.

 

[Byrdie714]

The other thing that people seem to be forgetting is that none of the firefighters, black or white, got promoted due to this testing disparities.

I think that the 'white' firefighters are having a connoption fit over this and are screaming, "reverse discrimination."

Nothing like a bunch of wusses getting their firehoses all tangled up. *smh*

 

[jillio]

The other thing that people seem to be forgetting is that none of the firefighters, black or white, got promoted due to this testing disparities.

I think that the 'white' firefighters are having a connoption fit over this and are screaming, "reverse discrimination."

Nothing like a bunch of wusses getting their firehoses all tangled up. *smh*

Exactly. All the scores were thrown out, and now the white firefighters are whining.

 

[Daredevel7]

Incorrect assumptions. That is not how disparities are accommodated for. And if you "dumb a test down" and give it to the same population, you will still see the same dispartity in scores because the higher scores will be even higher due to being artificially inflated.

This is somewhat correct. It doesn't apply if a relatively large number of people have reached the highest score (100%), so score distribution sort of reached a "saturation", messing up the distribution.

Anyway, that's why I said post #284. You can tell from the scores if the test is too easy or hard.

 

[Byrdie714]

Exactly. All the scores were thrown out, and now the white firefighters are whining.

And instead of running to courts with their complaints. They could've opted to take another exam that was a little bit more fair as well more accessible for the minority firefighters.

Of course knowing that this incident has taken place in the New England states--I'm not suprised. Afterall--wasn't Boston a hotbed of racial tensions during the busing desegregation of the 1970's?

 

[darkdog]

There are several specific formulas to determine such. And you are incorrect. Even a small population can fit a normal curve, if that is the population used for norming. What you are talking about it generalizability, and that is a different concept altogether. I have already explained the percentages of populations that are represented in the various SDs. That gives you the information you are requesting.

A small population can fit a normal curve, but the likelihood of doing so perfectly is pretty low. I'll demonstrate that if you want me to.

So what you're saying is that in a given test distribution, exactly 68.2689% of scores must fall within 1 SD, 95.4500% must fall within 2 SDs, and 99.7300% must fall within 3 SDs? What if it's off by a thousandth of a percent? Is it suddenly invalid? See how unlikely that is? That's why I'm asking for a range.

The graph of a Gaussian is a characteristic symmetric "bell curve" shape that quickly falls off towards plus/minus infinity. A normal distribution of test scores does not fall off quickly toward zero. I have already explained this to you. Therefore, it approximates a normal distribution.

Gaussian and normal are interchangeable terms in statistics. To quote one of my books, "Probability and Stochastic Processes" (Yates, Goodman) on p. 137, "Because they occur so frequently in practice, Gaussian random variables are sometimes referred to as normal random variables." The probability density functions and everything else about them are exactly the same. More information here: Normal Distribution -- from Wolfram MathWorld

Sweetie, I have my terms straight. And the skew is not a parameter. Statistical parameters are values, usually unknown, and therefore has to be estimated, used to represent a certain population characteristic.

Skewness is indeed a value that can be calculated from a distribution. Here's a list showing how to calculate them for various distributions. Z table - Normal Distribution
Note that for normal, Laplace, uniform, and student-t distributions, the skewness is 0. Speaking of student-t distributions...

Student-t is not a distribution. It is a converted raw score. Chi-Square is a statistical hypothesis test and can only be used when the null pyhpothesis have found to have been true in previous statistical analysis. We are not even concerned with hypothesis testing in this situation. There is no hypothesis to be tested. We are determining the validity of an assessment.

I opened up my book as you suggest. Right now I am staring at a picture of a student-t distribution (also known as Student's t-distribution) on p. 232 of "Probability and Random Processes with Applications to Signal Processing" (Stark, Woods). Here's a picture of one that looks exactly like what's in my book: Student's t-Distribution -- from Wolfram MathWorld. And right now, I'm staring at a picture of a chi-square distribution on p. 236. Here's what it looks like: Chi-Squared Distribution -- from Wolfram MathWorld

Evidently, your understanding of the rest of the terms you have thrown out is fairly superficial as well. A skewed distribution is not a normal distribution. You need to return to your statistics text book. If a distribution is skewed, it is not normal. That is a very basic concept.

Then it's a good thing I said this: "It is not an actual normal distribution, but it's similar".

Now, if you're going to talk down to me and to the others here while touting your own expertise, you should be the one who knows what you're talking about. Instead, you're claiming that normal distributions can have two modes, Gaussian distributions are just approximations of normal distributions, and there's no such thing as a student-t or chi-square distribution. Furthermore, I didn't intend to get in a big debate about the field of statistics. I just wanted to find out from you, the forum expert in industrial and organizational psychology, the specific criteria used to deem a test invalid based on the distribution. What you've given me so far is unclear, but if I understand it right, it means the vast majority of tests will be invalidated based merely on chance. If so, then what good are your methods? If you're the expert around here and you're this far off the mark, are you beginning to see why more people don't trust your Board of Industrial and Organizational Psychology?

And please don't call me "sweetie". Only my mom and my wife may do that.

 

[lsfoster]

Uhh....no. She has stated it:

First of all, she originally stated something that was untrue in the second post you quoted, and I responded with the first post you quoted. You can't just take them, switch the order, and say she already said it. The order of events is still important, which is one of the big problems with this case. The firefighters who started the lawsuit are not the ones who made this an issue of race, the city did that when it decided to void the results based solely on race.

I disagree.

There is a way and that is to educate them before taking the test.

Yes, but it is not the job of the people making the test to make a test that will somehow be "fair" to people who don't know the material. I mentioned the issue of economic status because it is responsible for a huge gap in education. But if the people are not educated before they take the test, that doesn't make the test invalid.

The other thing that people seem to be forgetting is that none of the firefighters, black or white, got promoted due to this testing disparities.

I think that the 'white' firefighters are having a connoption fit over this and are screaming, "reverse discrimination."

Nothing like a bunch of wusses getting their firehoses all tangled up. *smh*

I already covered how that is the same type of argument that was used by the states to justify their inter-racial marriage bans. The fact that "none" of the firefighters were promoted does not change the fact that "some" of them should have been, and weren't. Again, if this were the other way around, and all black firefighters had scored well, and the city had thrown the tests out, what do you think would happen?

And instead of running to courts with their complaints. They could've opted to take another exam that was a little bit more fair as well more accessible for the minority firefighters.

Of course knowing that this incident has taken place in the New England states--I'm not suprised. Afterall--wasn't Boston a hotbed of racial tensions during the busing desegregation of the 1970's?

I've also stated many times that they should have simply had another test made available, but the city opted not to handle the situation that way. They simply threw the results out without attempting to remedy the situation at all.

No, dear, nothing is ignored. Once again, perhaps you can use your expertise to conduct your own statistical anaylis rather than simply posting replies that show your lack of understanding. And no, you don't need more information than that to determine if the test itself was culturally biased. If you are going to determine exactly what questions or suibsections contain the bias, you need access to the test. To determine that the cross culturally validity is questionable, one only needs the information I have. I am axiously awaiting your statistical analysis that supports your points. I assume it will be forthcoming?

I'm not ignoring your points. I'm telling you that they do not relate to this case, nor to the analysis that determines the distribution of scores in any way. I have told others that hypothesis testing is not applicable to this case. I have pointed out obvious holes in logic. That is not ignoring points, that is refuting them. If I were ignoring them, I would not be addressing them. You really are grasping at straws now.

And yet you still haven't provided any reason that race should be the only "cultural" issue considered when comparing the scores. You have also not explained what types of cultural differences there would be between a group of men who most likely grew up and were taught in the same area and schools that would make this test so unfair only to the minorities taking it. You have also not explained how all of your "experience" with determining test validity and reliability does not make you question the idea of judging the validity of something based solely on the race of the people in question, ignoring any and all other factors. You also have yet to admit that without seeing the test itself, or having any knowledge of firefighting, the important qualities required for promotion, or what was tested on this particular exam, you are doing nothing more than agreeing with the opinion of some group somewhere, despite the fact that their decision could be just as easily biased as anything else in this case.

You are also still ignoring the fact that the timeline does imply discrimination against the white firefighters, since the results were thrown out based simply on race, and not that the city thought the test was invalid.

First of all, you have yet to reply to all the points in the post I quoted. You claim that you have "refuted" them, but all you've done is say, "Oh no, you're wrong" generally accompanied by some smug and condescending comment directed at me. You have provided no actual argument or evidence to support your points.

Secondly, you keep saying that you can determine the "cultural bias" based on nothing but race. It has been pointed out many times that this simply cannot be true, unless you are only considering "culture" to include "race". If you would like to actually respond to that, instead of just saying, "no, I'm considering culture", that would be greatly appreciated. I'm not sure how that would be possible, though, since all you have to "analyze" is race. You have no other information or data, as I have said many times.

 

[Jiro]

Quite obviously, you know nothing about job duties, nor statistical analysis.:roll:

and why are you here? go back to your work and also do what you promised. it is now 6:30pm. another 1.5 hrs just went by and still no result... does "soon" mean a few days later for you?

I think it's becoming an annoying tendency of yours to tell people that we don't know anything about anything :roll:

 

[Jiro]

Since it was an employer that was providing the test. The employer could have educated them.

actually no. there are books and materials provided for them. Same for SAT, LSAT, GED, etc. The employer would train and educate them AFTER they get the job. You're confusing with job training with test preparation.

 

[Byrdie714]

First of all, she originally stated something that was untrue in the second post you quoted, and I responded with the first post you quoted. You can't just take them, switch the order, and say she already said it. The order of events is still important, which is one of the big problems with this case. The firefighters who started the lawsuit are not the ones who made this an issue of race, the city did that when it decided to void the results based solely on race.

Jillio stated her quote is #280 whereas yours was in #282.....

Secondly the firefighters did start this issue of race by filing a legal complaint by white firefighters.

Yes, but it is not the job of the people making the test to make a test that will somehow be "fair" to people who don't know the material. I mentioned the issue of economic status because it is responsible for a huge gap in education. But if the people are not educated before they take the test, that doesn't make the test invalid.

Doesn't matter in regards of trying to make the "test fair". What matters is that the minorities and the white firefighters were given the sam opportunity in accessing educational materials that were to be covered on this exam. Since the city was sponsoring the exam--they should've taken the responsibility of making sure that all were given the proper materials.

I already covered how that is the same type of argument that was used by the states to justify their inter-racial marriage bans. The fact that "none" of the firefighters were promoted does not change the fact that "some" of them should have been, and weren't. Again, if this were the other way around, and all black firefighters had scored well, and the city had thrown the tests out, what do you think would happen?

"Shoulda, coulda, woulda." The city is justifiable in throwing out the test and test results.

I've also stated many times that they should have simply had another test made available, but the city opted not to handle the situation that way. They simply threw the results out without attempting to remedy the situation at all.

The firefighter's didn't give the city the time and chance to do so. The firefighters are acting out in haste.

Secondly, you keep saying that you can determine the "cultural bias" based on nothing but race. It has been pointed out many times that this simply cannot be true, unless you are only considering "culture" to include "race". If you would like to actually respond to that, instead of just saying, "no, I'm considering culture", that would be greatly appreciated. I'm not sure how that would be possible, though, since all you have to "analyze" is race. You have no other information or data, as I have said many times.

One can not separate the two as it goes in hand in hand. The courts even recognizes this.

Just like being a lesbian--you have your own Womyn Festivals, folklore, arts, theatre, even humor.

I think it's becoming an annoying tendency of yours to tell people that we don't know anything about anything :roll:

Isn't that the pot calling the kettle black?

 

[Byrdie714]

actually no. there are books and materials provided for them. Same for SAT, LSAT, GED, etc. The employer would train and educate them AFTER they get the job. You're confusing with job training with test preparation.

No I'm not.

You're assuming that if one is wanting to get promoted, that they would get promoted basis on their work ethic, etc and not knowledge.

It's usually the employer's responsibility to provide the necessary tools to enable their employees to better themselves in their job and to assist them in getting the promotion that the employee wants.

 

[Jiro]

No I'm not.

You're assuming that if one is wanting to get promoted, that they would get promoted basis on their work ethic, etc and not knowledge.

It's usually the employer's responsibility to provide the necessary tools to enable their employees to better themselves in their job and to assist them in getting the promotion that the employee wants.

yes - books & materials and then you're on your own to study it for yourself. they don't educate them as you said in post #295.

and where did I say in my post that you can be promoted based on work ethic and not knowledge? I've REPEATEDLY said that it's both plus office politic. Who the hell wanna appoint a dumbass to captain seat? that's a serious liability risk and a political backlash. Not only it would tarnish the fire department but the city itself... like mayor.

 

[lsfoster]

Jillio stated her quote is #280 whereas yours was in #282.....

Exactly, she said something wrong, and I corrected her. You then quoted them out of order.

Secondly the firefighters did start this issue of race by filing a legal complaint by white firefighters.

No, the firefighters responded to a situation that the city made about race.

Doesn't matter in regards of trying to make the "test fair". What matters is that the minorities and the white firefighters were given the sam opportunity in accessing educational materials that were to be covered on this exam. Since the city was sponsoring the exam--they should've taken the responsibility of making sure that all were given the proper materials.

There is no evidence, and no reason to doubt that all materials were made equally accessible. As was stated in some of the articles, one of the white firefighters who did extremely well on the test even had additional material made available to help him learn despite his dyslexia. If all of the material was equally accessible, then the test was perfectly "fair" by your criteria. Unless you can find any evidence that this isn't the case, this doesn't apply to this situation.

"Shoulda, coulda, woulda." The city is justifiable in throwing out the test and test results.

Unless you can give a good reason that they are justified, just saying it doesn't make it true. If you want to say that this is simply your opinion, you are free to do so, but we are just as free to ask for the reasoning behind that.

The firefighter's didn't give the city the time and chance to do so. The firefighters are acting out in haste.

The test was given in Nov of 2003, the first complain was filed June 2004. During that time, many requests and appeals were filed by the firefighters who did well on the exam. If they had time to file multiple requests and appeals, the city had plenty of time to administer a new test. Please don't make statements that can clearly be shown to be wrong by a quick look at the articles linked through the thread, it just wastes time.

One can not separate the two as it goes in hand in hand. The courts even recognizes this.

Just like being a lesbian--you have your own Womyn Festivals, folklore, arts, theatre, even humor.

I'm not even sure what any of this means. I said that "culture" encompasses more than just "race". Besides the fact that I'm not sure I get any of what you said about being a lesbian, that also has nothing to do with my race. Therefore you are just providing a specific example of how jillio's "analysis" is extremely skewed and limited since it considers one thing and one thing only: race.

 

[Byrdie714]

yes - books & materials and then you're on your own to study it for yourself. they don't educate them as you said in post #295.

and where did I say in my post that you can be promoted based on work ethic and not knowledge? I've REPEATEDLY said that it's both plus office politic. Who the hell wanna appoint a dumbass to captain seat? that's a serious liability risk and a political backlash. Not only it would tarnish the fire department but the city itself... like mayor.

<patting little Jiro's head> It's alright son--you're just learning.

When an employer provides one with books and materials, the employer is taking on the responsibility to make sure that one understands the subjects that the employees are going to be tested for. If not--the employer runs the risk of wasting money and time in educating their own employees which isn't beneficial in the long run.

 

[Byrdie714]

Exactly, she said something wrong, and I corrected her. You then quoted them out of order.

Actually she is right. And it was not taking out of order as she stated her quote in 280 and yours was on 282. How is that out of order?

No, the firefighters responded to a situation that the city made about race.

I disagree with that comment. The city may have however it was the firefighters that brought this on themselves.

There is no evidence, and no reason to doubt that all materials were made equally accessible. As was stated in some of the articles, one of the white firefighters who did extremely well on the test even had additional material made available to help him learn despite his dyslexia. If all of the material was equally accessible, then the test was perfectly "fair" by your criteria. Unless you can find any evidence that this isn't the case, this doesn't apply to this situation.

The materials may have been fair however how was it taught to the firefighters prior to taking the exam?

Unless you can give a good reason that they are justified, just saying it doesn't make it true. If you want to say that this is simply your opinion, you are free to do so, but we are just as free to ask for the reasoning behind that.

Usually there is more to the picture than what is being told.

The test was given in Nov of 2003, the first complain was filed June 2004. During that time, many requests and appeals were filed by the firefighters who did well on the exam. If they had time to file multiple requests and appeals, the city had plenty of time to administer a new test. Please don't make statements that can clearly be shown to be wrong by a quick look at the articles linked through the thread, it just wastes time.

I'm suprised that the courts in Connecticut went ahead and accepted the lawsuit as I know that in this state--it would've been dismissed due to statue of limitations.

Secondly when a city is being sued--the city can not administer a new test until the legalities of this particular issue is resolved.

I'm not even sure what any of this means. I said that "culture" encompasses more than just "race". Besides the fact that I'm not sure I get any of what you said about being a lesbian, that also has nothing to do with my race. Therefore you are just providing a specific example of how jillio's "analysis" is extremely skewed and limited since it considers one thing and one thing only: race.

Race and culture go hand in hand.

Mentioning of you being a lesbian and a white woman--puts you at an advantage and disadvantage over other minorities regardless of one's sexual orientation.

 

[Jiro]

<patting little Jiro's head> It's alright son--you're just learning.

When an employer provides one with books and materials, the employer is taking on the responsibility to make sure that one understands the subjects that the employees are going to be tested for. If not--the employer runs the risk of wasting money and time in educating their own employees which isn't beneficial in the long run.

No...... the employer pays for classes and trainings (usually off-site such as colleges) but that's for corporations or any other white collar jobs. As for firemen/military/police/etc.. they provide mandatory refreshment/drill trainings. I understand that you've worked at hotel for a quite a long time. It's understandable that you're rusty on this area.

btw - the employer does not automatically trains or pays for training upon request. it is up to employer to go extra miles for you if they deemed you as a valuable employee.

 

[Jiro]

And please don't call me "sweetie". Only my mom and my wife may do that.

 

[Byrdie714]

No...... the employer pays for classes and trainings but that's for corporations or any other white collar jobs. As for firemen/military/police/etc.. they provide mandatory refreshment trainings. I understand that you've worked at hotel for a quite a long time. It's understandable that you're rusty on this area.

btw - the employer does not automatically trains or pays for training upon request. it is up to employer to go extra miles for you if they deemed you as a valuable employee.

Oh Jiro--you didn't say that?

Everyone knows that police officers/firefighters are expected to have college degrees. Thus making them.......white collars. Afterall why do you think most police officers have Bachelor's in CJ? (CJ means Criminal Justice just in case you didn't know that. )

I may have been "out of the field" my son, but I'm not as rusty as you think I am.

<patting little Jiro the Nero on the head>

 

[KarissaMann05]

It is more like... a whole of "I-can-judge-you,-treat-you-in-a-way-I-wouldn't-want-to-be-treated" crap. Like, a silly "revenge" on anything else... =/

 

[Jiro]

Isn't that the pot calling the kettle black?

I believe that's for Jillio to answer