Reverse Discrimination Case

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Jiro said:
right.... and this test has abided by federal civil law and the firm was contracted to create a culturally-unbiased test. what's left is the State Supreme Court to decide if the test is a violation of federal law or not....

I guess we better sit tight and let the real experts do the math and studies who actually have tests & data at their disposal. no need for you to do the computations since you've never seen the test... Duh! :cool2:
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That has yet to be determined. Two courts have already dismissed the lawwuit. That means, while the testing firm claimed to be following federal guideline, obviously they slipped up somewhere.

If you had any knowledge regarding validity and reliability of the testing instrument, distribution of scores and the implications of such, or statistics, you would already know that I don't need to have the test in hand. All I need to have in hand are the scores as provided by Daredevel to determine if the disparities are divided by race.

The professionals have already done their analysis. That would be the findings of the Society of Industrial and Organizational Psychology. And their findings were obviously compelling enough to get 2 courts to dismiss the lawsuit. I am doing the analysis because there are a few here who quite obviously are questioning my comments, and therefore, I will provide the numbers and analysis necessary to support what I am saying. I suggest you take the time and make the effort to do the same if you plan to continue discussing the topic with me.
 
jillio said:
Nor was I talking to you. I was posting a response to Jiro's comment.

And gender is one of the cultural considerations one needs to consider in determining cross cultural validity. In this case, however, gender is not a consideration, as all the test takers were male.

I will share my analysis as soon as it is finished. Maybe you'd better get to work on your own. And since the white firefighters filed their lawsuit based on race, they have made it a primary issue in this case.
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Again, you have failed to actually respond to the points raised. Nobody brought up gender, what we did bring up was that your "analysis" can and will only consider race, which you claimed was untrue and have yet to explain or provide any evidence of.

Also, the white firefighters filed their lawsuit because the city threw the results out based on race, they made it the primary issue. A fact you also have been ignoring and refuse to comment on.
 
jillio said:
I will share my analysis as soon as it is finished.
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how much longer? you've been saying that since 10:57 AM (Post #238) - approximately 5 hours now...

Less Talk, More Action :cool2:
 
If someone actually manages to do a test that can represent the population (all the test takers) while still maintaining the distribution of the scores, I'll give it thumbs up and it gives evidence that somehow the old test did screw over the blacks. The same distribution of scores (meaning a nominal distribution around an "average" like a 70) ensures that the test wasn't "dumbed down".

I understand where lsfoster comes from. It seems to me that, realistically, it is more feasible to "dumb down" the test until everyone does well rather than do the test as mentioned above.

I also understand where Jiro is coming from. There is nothing one can do about "office politics". Just one of those things. However, it seems like that Fire Dept is really trying to be as neutral as possible by ordering a race-blind test, and they indeed are using the results of the test in order to choose who to promote. The only real choice they have is that they get to choose among 3 of the top scorers, and this is where office politics has its influence. However, black people didn't even make it to be one of the choices.
 
I think we just gotta learn to disagree or agree to disagree and see what the SJC comes out with.

Either way, I doubt any of this is now convincing anyone reading to choose either sides presented, it is a bunch of things that they will cover at the SC out of our discretion with qualified professionals. We are just pointing out at the flaws between each other and two wrongs do not make a right.

But three lefts do, and that's what they're doing at East Capitol Street, Washington, DC.

(Comedy hour)
5tvzua.jpg

Taking bets!!!!!
 
jillio said:
That has yet to be determined. Two courts have already dismissed the lawwuit. That means, while the testing firm claimed to be following federal guideline, obviously they slipped up somewhere.

If you had any knowledge regarding validity and reliability of the testing instrument, distribution of scores and the implications of such, or statistics, you would already know that I don't need to have the test in hand. All I need to have in hand are the scores as provided by Daredevel to determine if the disparities are divided by race.

The professionals have already done their analysis. That would be the findings of the Society of Industrial and Organizational Psychology. And their findings were obviously compelling enough to get 2 courts to dismiss the lawsuit. I am doing the analysis because there are a few here who quite obviously are questioning my comments, and therefore, I will provide the numbers and analysis necessary to support what I am saying. I suggest you take the time and make the effort to do the same if you plan to continue discussing the topic with me.
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Yup, that's all you need to conduct your "extensive analysis" that considers nothing but race. Sounds about right to me. The test itself and any other factors are completely ignored by your "analysis". This is why any "statistical analysis" that you come up with will, and can only be, nothing more than saying, "The test wasn't fair because they didn't do well." You have absolutely no other information, evidence, or data that would allow you to say anything more.

In order to determine if the test was testing the right things, you would not only need a copy of it, but a thorough understanding of the topic and necessary components. You have neither. I order to determine if it was "culturally biased", you would need not only a whole lot more information about the participants' culture than just their race, but also some other method of determining how much they actually know or how qualified they were. Again, you have neither.

You are completely unable to say anything definitive, relevant, or important to this discussion with whatever "analysis" you are performing, and continue to ignore the many points brought up by anyone else in this thread.
 
Also, I've stated a few times that personally I think coming from a low income background (directly correlated to minorities) has a big hand in this disparity, and I don't see how a test can eliminate that.
 
jillio said:
That has yet to be determined. Two courts have already dismissed the lawwuit. That means, while the testing firm claimed to be following federal guideline, obviously they slipped up somewhere.

If you had any knowledge regarding validity and reliability of the testing instrument, distribution of scores and the implications of such, or statistics, you would already know that I don't need to have the test in hand. All I need to have in hand are the scores as provided by Daredevel to determine if the disparities are divided by race.

The professionals have already done their analysis. That would be the findings of the Society of Industrial and Organizational Psychology. And their findings were obviously compelling enough to get 2 courts to dismiss the lawsuit. I am doing the analysis because there are a few here who quite obviously are questioning my comments, and therefore, I will provide the numbers and analysis necessary to support what I am saying. I suggest you take the time and make the effort to do the same if you plan to continue discussing the topic with me.
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and the difference between you and them is that they have access to tests, not you.

and we both know that the lower courts are somewhat notoriously known to be politically-motivated and/or uneducated about the issue. Hint - the cyber cases.
 
Daredevel7 said:
Also, I've stated a few times that personally I think coming from a low income background (directly correlated to minorities) has a big hand in this disparity, and I don't see how a test can eliminate that.
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Exactly, and that's why it's such a huge problem. The idea that all races and ethnicities will be spread evenly in results ignores the fact that there is a strong tie between race and socio-economic status. Often, the only way to make those tests "fair" is to "dumb them down", because they ignore the actual reason that minorities don't do well, which is that statistically, many of them come from lower-income households and have not only worse school systems, but a different view and opinion of education in general. Basically, they are less educated. There is no way to "correct" for that on a test other than to have it require less education.
 
lsfoster said:
Also, the white firefighters filed their lawsuit because the city threw the results out based on race, they made it the primary issue. A fact you also have been ignoring and refuse to comment on.
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Uhh....no. She has stated it:

jillio said:
Nor was I talking to you. I was posting a response to Jiro's comment.

And gender is one of the cultural considerations one needs to consider in determining cross cultural validity. In this case, however, gender is not a consideration, as all the test takers were male.

I will share my analysis as soon as it is finished. Maybe you'd better get to work on your own. And since the white firefighters filed their lawsuit based on race, they have made it a primary issue in this case.
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I think people are getting a little too......."trigger-happy" in response to this lawsuit.
 
lsfoster said:
Exactly, and that's why it's such a huge problem. The idea that all races and ethnicities will be spread evenly in results ignores the fact that there is a strong tie between race and socio-economic status. Often, the only way to make those tests "fair" is to "dumb them down", because they ignore the actual reason that minorities don't do well, which is that statistically, many of them come from lower-income households and have not only worse school systems, but a different view and opinion of education in general. Basically, they are less educated. There is no way to "correct" for that on a test other than to have it require less education.
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I disagree.

There is a way and that is to educate them before taking the test.
 
Jiro said:
how much longer? you've been saying that since 10:57 AM (Post #238) - approximately 5 hours now...

Less Talk, More Action :cool2:
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Quite obviously, you know nothing about job duties, nor statistical analysis.:roll:
 
Daredevel7 said:
Also, I've stated a few times that personally I think coming from a low income background (directly correlated to minorities) has a big hand in this disparity, and I don't see how a test can eliminate that.
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It can't eliminate it; however it can compensate for it when it is shown to be a predominant factor within the group.
 
lsfoster said:
Yup, that's all you need to conduct your "extensive analysis" that considers nothing but race. Sounds about right to me. The test itself and any other factors are completely ignored by your "analysis". This is why any "statistical analysis" that you come up with will, and can only be, nothing more than saying, "The test wasn't fair because they didn't do well." You have absolutely no other information, evidence, or data that would allow you to say anything more.

In order to determine if the test was testing the right things, you would not only need a copy of it, but a thorough understanding of the topic and necessary components. You have neither. I order to determine if it was "culturally biased", you would need not only a whole lot more information about the participants' culture than just their race, but also some other method of determining how much they actually know or how qualified they were. Again, you have neither.

You are completely unable to say anything definitive, relevant, or important to this discussion with whatever "analysis" you are performing, and continue to ignore the many points brought up by anyone else in this thread.
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No, dear, nothing is ignored. Once again, perhaps you can use your expertise to conduct your own statistical anaylis rather than simply posting replies that show your lack of understanding. And no, you don't need more information than that to determine if the test itself was culturally biased. If you are going to determine exactly what questions or suibsections contain the bias, you need access to the test. To determine that the cross culturally validity is questionable, one only needs the information I have. I am axiously awaiting your statistical analysis that supports your points. I assume it will be forthcoming?

I'm not ignoring your points. I'm telling you that they do not relate to this case, nor to the analysis that determines the distribution of scores in any way. I have told others that hypothesis testing is not applicable to this case. I have pointed out obvious holes in logic. That is not ignoring points, that is refuting them. If I were ignoring them, I would not be addressing them. You really are grasping at straws now.
 
Byrdie714 said:
Since it was an employer that was providing the test. The employer could have educated them. :cool2:
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...................??????

If it was that simple, everyone in school would test the same.....
 
lsfoster said:
Exactly, and that's why it's such a huge problem. The idea that all races and ethnicities will be spread evenly in results ignores the fact that there is a strong tie between race and socio-economic status. Often, the only way to make those tests "fair" is to "dumb them down", because they ignore the actual reason that minorities don't do well, which is that statistically, many of them come from lower-income households and have not only worse school systems, but a different view and opinion of education in general. Basically, they are less educated. There is no way to "correct" for that on a test other than to have it require less education.
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Incorrect assumptions. That is not how disparities are accommodated for. And if you "dumb a test down" and give it to the same population, you will still see the same dispartity in scores because the higher scores will be even higher due to being artificially inflated.
 
Jiro said:
just because ADA law requires disabled people to have an equal opportunity as able-people doesn't mean the employment is required to provide the accommodation that they want. Same concept.

the real world just doesn't work the way as you'd think. oh well. it's ok. <pat on your head> :cool2:
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Requires? :shock:
 
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