Respect for all

An oralist is an oralist. An extreme oralist is an audist. But all oralists function from somewhat of an audist perspective, in that oral language is the priority over sign.
 
jillio said:
jackiesolorzano said:
And you were yelling at me because you did not read my post correctly. Therefore, it was your mistake, and you had no reason to be yelling at anyone. It is not my fault if you did not read carefully. Before you yell at anyone, you need to make sure that you have a valid reason for doing so. In this case, you most certainly did not.
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Hey Jillo,
I was wondering if your PH.D program did they teach you how to read. Let me show you why I am asking.
I would like to apologize to you if you think I was yelling at you or anyone else here. Yes, I was yelling but it was not at you or anyone else except for Jillo. Please forgive me. If you would re-read my post you could see that I was apologizing to SxyPorkie because she thought I was yelling at her and I wanted her to know that the only person I was yelling at was you.
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jackiesolorzano said:
Angel, yes I am an oral teacher of the deaf. I teach preschool age children. And I am more of an oralist. I am not now nor would I ever be an extreme oralist. I have meet some that think all deaf children should get implants and be oral. I do not. I feel that parents need to have all the information before making an informed decision. Before a child is placed in my class, I meet the parents to make sure that someone has told them about all of their options. I also think that cochlear implants can be a good tool if used correctly.
I am not against raising a child with sign language. I do believe that if a parent chooses to put their child in a TC/bibi program then they need to learn sign language. I think ASL is a beatiuful, it was not what I choose to raise my children in but if a parents wants to do that they should.
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I understand, thank you for answering my question. :)
 
jillio said:
An oralist is an oralist. An extreme oralist is an audist. But all oralists function from somewhat of an audist perspective, in that oral language is the priority over sign.
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Whatever you say, I forgot you were the expert on knowing all the different forms of oralism.
 
jackiesolorzano said:
jillio said:
Hey Jillo,
I was wondering if your PH.D program did they teach you how to read. Let me show you why I am asking.
I would like to apologize to you if you think I was yelling at you or anyone else here. Yes, I was yelling but it was not at you or anyone else except for Jillo. Please forgive me. If you would re-read my post you could see that I was apologizing to SxyPorkie because she thought I was yelling at her and I wanted her to know that the only person I was yelling at was you.
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Can you read?

I understand that you were yelling at me, but you were yelling at me because you made a mistake when you read my post. Therefore, you did not have the right, nor a valid reason, to yell at me or anyone else. If you were truly concerned about respect, you would apologize to me for your mistake. Don't yell at me because you did not read correctly.
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and if they or other oral deaf users say things like how they have more opportunities cuz they have oral skills, that is a big turn off for me.
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YES!!! You hit the nail on the head! If you're orally skilled, you won't automaticly be ostracized. It's more the attitude. A lot of AG Bell types have this attitude that they're "better educated" or "better" then signers................Yes, there are some ASL only extremist separatists...............BUT, most of their attitudes were born of encounters with VERY snobby oral onlyiests!
 
deafdyke said:
YES!!! You hit the nail on the head! If you're orally skilled, you won't automaticly be ostracized. It's more the attitude. A lot of AG Bell types have this attitude that they're "better educated" or "better" then signers................Yes, there are some ASL only extremist separatists...............BUT, most of their attitudes were born of encounters with VERY snobby oral onlyiests!
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**nodding agreement** The oralists have created the ASL extremists. It is a social retalliation against one form of extremism by another.
 
vallee said:
Can I ask what are you doing to change the Deaf community? Are you working with Deaf Schools and school boards? Just so I understand, since you believe in a deaf only school board then parents who are hearing like Jillio and Rick would not be allowed to serve on the board or do you mean just people who have a stake in deaf education like parents and deaf members?
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I would once I know how one gets on the school board. Is the appointment by invitation only? Can anyone volunteer for the board? What are the requirements before one can get onboard? I have asked this kind of questions before but didn't get my answers. Vallee, can you please answer those questions?

The reason I believe that there should be all-deaf school board is because of the ethnocentricity of the hearing people. Deaf people (especially teachers of the deaf) do want the best for the deaf kids.

I have read about how Jewish people get good education because they ran their own schools in USA. African Americans didn't have their own schools so they get a bum education, especially in the urban cities. Ditto for Hispanics. We should run the education. I know if I am a teacher, I would be pushing them to the maximum.
 
LadySekhmet said:
Alright, I think now is the time to add my two cents.

As I'm reading on and on, I'm getting more angered by Jackie's comments. It has nothing to do with the battle between oral-bibi-ASL education. The only thing I'm against is LACK of education for many deaf people, and hearing parents. It's sad.

Jackie says, "I HAVE NOT SEEN ANY IMPLANT USERS THAT HAVE BEEN EXPOSED TO BOTH ORAL LANGUAGE AND SIGN LANGUAGE AT AN EARLY AGE AND BE ABLE TO DO BOTH."
Go to Lake Drive School for the Deaf in Mountain Lakes NJ, and you'll see a LOT of students with CI *and* spoken language *and* sign language. I know, I grew up there. I learned how to speak *and* read/write English. I have COLLEGE LEVEL READING. Not all students from that school is at that level. Some students don't do as well as other, others do amazing. It all has to do with education beyond the school. Same for hearing students. Some students suck, others excel. In fact, one person I know has AMAZING writing skills and reading skills. Hell, she reads 2 books A WEEK! And guess what, she CANNOT speak at all. I'm implanted. I speak English fluently. I sign fluently. My mother signs because she wanted to. All of this occurred when I was 2 years old. My first sign was "cracker". My second sign I learned was "Fart" (Don't ask. :lol:) There. You met one deaf person who was implanted, exposed at oral and sign language at a young age.

Jillio says something about drilling in someone's head, Jackie responded by saying: "I AM YELLING NOW IN CASE YOU WANTED TO KNOW. YOU SAY ONE THING AND THEN GO BACK AND SAY ANOTHER. SO YOU SAY THAT YOU ARE NOT AGAINST COCHLEAR IMPLANTS. BUT LOOK AT WHAT YOU JUST SAID THAT DRILLING A HOLE IN A DEAF PERSON HEAD IS WRONG."

First of all, jillio DID NOT say ANYTHING about CI! He's merely saying that long time ago, doctors would use a drill, and cut a hole in someone's head to cure them of mental illness. Where did jillio say anything about CI?! Obviously, you need to read more carefully. No comment about that. :roll:

Jackie said this in above post: "My daughter would prefer that I not know any sign language because it is like a secret language for her and some of her friends."
WTF? Now it's making it sound like your daughter is the one that's telling you what to do or what not to do. "secret language" - Hmm..it makes me think that while your daughter embraces her oral education, yet really wants to talk in sign language. That comment just seem so "wrong" to me.


To me it seem to be a little bit of a taunting war between jillio and Jackie. I'm more on Jillio's side simply because he/she does not go around insulting people or telling people that it's "his way or the highway".

Jackie - While you're the mom, and you made the choice to raise your children that way. Good for you. I never said that I'm against the way you're raising your children. I am against the fact that you put down people who are against it. They have their reasons, good or bad. You favor oral education. If some parents come to this forum and wants to know about oral education. You give them the resources they need, but DO NOT ever say, "ORAL EDUCATION IS THE BOMB! YOU BETTER DO IT! DEAF PEOPLE ARE MORE SUCCESSFUL BEING ORALISTS!". You'll scare them off. Instead, just tell them that what oral education is. History of oralism, success stories, failure stories (can't always be successful in oral education can there?).

I personally see there has been a lot of changes in education for the deaf, because there's a lot more options out there. Towns are allowing mainstreaming with interpreters in classrooms. Schools are realizing that the English language skills really needed to be focused on in these schools (sadly, a little too late for most). ADA laws has been in effect for a while, and it *will* take a LONG while before EVERYONE is EDUCATED about the law. 20 years from now, there will be deaf people still going to oral schools. There will be deaf people still be going to a bi-bi/TC environment schools. There will probably be a big improvement in English skills among deaf students. Deaf Culture will always be there regardless what some people think. BUT - I believe that there will be hearing people all over having SOME type of grasp about deaf people. Why? E-D-U-C-A-T-I-O-N.

Ahh. what a relief. I'm ready for the bashings. :)
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Yaayyy! I am with you, especially on education!
 
R2D2 said:
Personally, I think that a parent should just educate themselves on all the viewpoints and options and then make the choice that is right for their circumstances, family and for the child. Education is the key here.
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How the parents are going to get the viewpoints from the Deaf people if all they are doing is listening to the doctors/hearing educators of the deaf? That is why I am very impressed with Jillio for seeking out the Deaf community when her son was small but how many parents have done that? Too few.
 
shel90 said:
That philosophy is the one I strongly strongly disagree with. I dont like this approach of trying oral first and if it fails, then learn sign later. That is a big NO NO in my book. Hearing kids are not being put in that position but yet it is ok to put deaf chidlren in that position.
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The oral method first is like putting up the safety net AFTER the person is injured because there is no net in the first place.
 
vallee said:
As a deaf individual raising a hearing child, do you know how much advise I have been given. Most from strangers and most hurt! I remember feeling so terrible over really harsh words about the tone of my voice and how I was damaging my child because she could not speak correctly. The kicker was I needed to make sure my child had quality time with a hearing adult so she does not sound like me. I can go on and on. If I felt this way I can only imagine what a hearing parent of a deaf child goes through.
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I feel you. It seems to be the problem with the oldest child. A teacher I knew has the same problem with his oldest girl and had to send her to a speech therapist. The rest of his 5 kids doesn't have that problem. I guess the oldest kid was teaching the younger kids the right way to speak.

If a hearing child is "damaged" because he couldn't speak properly. How much "damaged" the deaf child will be if he is not allowed ASL? I remember feeling crushed when I found out the truth about my speech. My teachers would be telling me that I speak good. Later on, when a hearing stranger doesn't understand me. Who do you think I knew who is lying to me? :roll:
 
jillio said:
**nodding agreement** The oralists have created the ASL extremists. It is a social retalliation against one form of extremism by another.
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Newton's Third Law: "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction".
 
Buffalo said:
How the parents are going to get the viewpoints from the Deaf people if all they are doing is listening to the doctors/hearing educators of the deaf? That is why I am very impressed with Jillio for seeking out the Deaf community when her son was small but how many parents have done that? Too few.
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Same here too.
 
Buffalo said:
I would once I know how one gets on the school board. Is the appointment by invitation only? Can anyone volunteer for the board? What are the requirements before one can get onboard? I have asked this kind of questions before but didn't get my answers. Vallee, can you please answer those questions?

The reason I believe that there should be all-deaf school board is because of the ethnocentricity of the hearing people. Deaf people (especially teachers of the deaf) do want the best for the deaf kids.

I have read about how Jewish people get good education because they ran their own schools in USA. African Americans didn't have their own schools so they get a bum education, especially in the urban cities. Ditto for Hispanics. We should run the education. I know if I am a teacher, I would be pushing them to the maximum.
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Our school boards here are elected. So you would have to run for election. You just qualify for election. School boards are not the ones with any "power." The are limited by the state and local government. About all deaf boards, I am against segratation. I am against complete segratation. From what I read in blogs about the number of deaf teachers in deaf schools the number is not even a majority.

I am a teacher and I do push my students to the max. I have former students in college and in great jobs. They turned out to be great adults.

If you want to get involve in improving education, you can apply for a position on advisory boards with the state government. I am asked to be part of the Council for Special Education in our state government. It is an appointed position.

My stomach turned flips each time I read how you separate children/groups into races and religion, I just don't believe in it.
 
Buffalo said:
I feel you. It seems to be the problem with the oldest child. A teacher I knew has the same problem with his oldest girl and had to send her to a speech therapist. The rest of his 5 kids doesn't have that problem. I guess the oldest kid was teaching the younger kids the right way to speak.

If a hearing child is "damaged" because he couldn't speak properly. How much "damaged" the deaf child will be if he is not allowed ASL? I remember feeling crushed when I found out the truth about my speech. My teachers would be telling me that I speak good. Later on, when a hearing stranger doesn't understand me. Who do you think I knew who is lying to me? :roll:
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It seemed my voice has changed completely. I mean it is so different since I got my CIs that it is the first comment I hear. I asked others why they did not tell me. I was embrassed to find out about my voice. They said, it was a part of me that they just accepted. To me that is the highest form of friendship.
 
jillio said:
**nodding agreement** The oralists have created the ASL extremists. It is a social retalliation against one form of extremism by another.
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Yes, when I became fluent in ASL, I became an ASL extremist for a few years, refusing to use my voice, refusing to interact with anyone who didnt sign, and refusing to use my hearing aids cuz I was shocked that with ASL, I had full access to communication when I never had before. I felt very hurt because I suffered when there was no reason for it so yea, that pissedme off. Eventually, I started to miss my HAs so I am not so much of an extremist anymore cuz I realize the value of oral skills but going back to oral only full time, NEVER AGAIN!!!!

If there was no oral deaf education or that idealogy of denying deaf children sign language when they are young, maybe there wouldnt be this division within the Deaf community. We would never know.

Many Deaf people who reject oralist usually have a valid reason...they had suffered under that philosophy but there is no reason for hearing parents to reject having their children interact with the Deaf community.
 
jillio said:
There are no different forms of oralism. That is why it is called oralism.
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Jillo let me understand all of this correctly. You are putting me in the same catorgery as educators and parents that would never allow their child to be around deaf children that do no have any oral skills. Or those oralist that would never allow their child to learn sign language. As you said there are no differen forms of oralism.
Please explain how I allowed my daughter to do to her first prom with a young man that has no oral skills. Or how I allow so many deaf teenagers in my home that do not have any oral skiils.
 
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