Respect for all

:) Maybe the majority of the board would be deaf if there isn't enough deaf people involved. There is not too many Deaf professionals. I don't know how the other Deaf people would want - all Deaf or majority of Deaf on board.

Does that change the make up of board goals? I thought you wanted a deaf board.
 
While homeschooling should certainly be an option for those who are inclined that way, a family should never be forced into homeschooling simply because the public school system is failing to meet a child's needs. ALL children are guaranteed a free and appropriate public education under the law.

They do have the right to free education but if all deaf schools are going oral because of CIs. Where do the CI failures goes to??? Where do the kids whose parents can't afford CI or has no insurance, can go to??? Isn't there a school that is like public and the deaf board could use it???
 
One of the deaf teachers at my work said that our days are numbered. Who wants to hire deaf teachers who dont have perfect speech?

It doesn't have to be. I was recentlytold that in sweden, the holy land of bi-bi education, they had a situation some years ago where the numbers of students in bi-bi schools became so small they almost shut down schools, and perhaps did shut down a few. But it's now on the rise as never before.

I also heard from more than one source through years, that in Japan, they ditched CI as the new hope a decade ago. Those countries have historically proved to be 5-20 years ahead of other countries in several areas.

Don't want to give false hopes, but somehow I am not that worried.
 
Does that change the make up of board goals? I thought you wanted a deaf board.

I do and I am sure that there are other Deaf people who feel the same way. Then I just thought of not enough of Deaf professionals. It is because of that paper that there should be deaf board and deaf school. Speech therapy can be included for CI kids if there are any $$ for it.

What if there are parents who can't afford CI like Hispanics and Native Americans??? That is why I want to know if there is a public like school that can be under the control of Deaf people.
 
It doesn't have to be. I was recentlytold that in sweden, the holy land of bi-bi education, they had a situation some years ago where the numbers of students in bi-bi schools became so small they almost shut down schools, and perhaps did shut down a few. But it's now on the rise as never before.

I also heard from more than one source through years, that in Japan, they ditched CI as the new hope a decade ago. Those countries have historically proved to be 5-20 years ahead of other countries in several areas.

Don't want to give false hopes, but somehow I am not that worried.

Thanks for the bit of good news. I still think there should be a school for the Deaf run by the Deaf.
 
I do and I am sure that there are other Deaf people who feel the same way. Then I just thought of not enough of Deaf professionals. It is because of that paper that there should be deaf board and deaf school. Speech therapy can be included for CI kids if there are any $$ for it.

What if there are parents who can't afford CI like Hispanics and Native Americans??? That is why I want to know if there is a public like school that can be under the control of Deaf people.

Not every child can qualify for CI. It is not just not for everyone. It targets a small population. That is why I don't see deaf schools or bi bi programs going from schools. I hope not. Each targets only a part of the Deaf population. I see room for child's education needs being met.

Shel, does your school have any programs that include Oral Deaf? Could the two programs work together or are they so different that it would not work?
 
As a matter of fact, I do. The information I present must be research-based. With CS, information is scarce compared to other methods of teaching literacy and modes of making English more visual.

All options that I know of are discussed on the table. And everything I tell the parent is research-based...if I ever refer them to a journal article, I make sure it is peer-reviewed. After the options come the most important discussion - the child. What is best for this particular CHILD?

My personal opinion is never expressed. Ever. Only my professional opinion. It's hard to do it - but that's my job. Using my professional opinion - I help the parents through possibly one of the most difficult yet for sure one of the most important discussion they can ever have about their child...and what an awesome responsiblity I have to make sure that when they leave my classroom/office, they leave feeling that they have been fully informed by a professional who understood that only THEY can truly make the best decision...if we would only let them. And trust them. And be there for them - through the good and bad times. And that they know it is ok to change their minds...it is okay to feel all of these emotions they are feeling...and that it is okay to have a deaf child. And it is okay to be parents of a deaf child. Because they will have at least one person they can come and feel comfortable to talk with and ask questions. Because this professional leaves the nasty politics and personal opinions in the umbrella rack, outside. This post is about respect - you will find it inside. Come on in - I may be Deaf, but I can listen. I may not agree with your decision...in fact, I might even cry when you leave. But I will support you and your child...in whatever ways I can.

WOW, I hope you never leave the teaching field. You are the kind of professionals we parents need. One that can tell us everything in a respectable manner and even if we do another route that you do not approve of and still be there for us parents and our children. Please Please never leave the teaching field. You might think we don't respect you but you are the type of teachers we need and other teachers and professionals need to learn from you. What a kind soul and rare soul you are. I wish there are more people like you. What state are you.
 
Great we aren't strangling each other :)

That question was a hard one! My idea is that I trust deaf and hoh people, with and without CI, more than doctors that only know how a cochlear looks like.

But let me try..

1. 99 percent of deaf people I have talked with, even those with CI, agree that early ASL is a good thing. This means we perhaps would have to ban the practice where deaf children are restricted from ASL after diagnosis. Refusing to exposure children to early ASL would then be criminalized and defined as child abuse.

Do you really think you or anyone else would be able to influence people in positions of changing things like that.

2. Oral charity organizations should be banned/restricted. A suggestion is to require them to have a majority of deaf or HOH board members or change their missions. Incompetent, poor and insecure parents are easy prey for those organizations today.

Never going to happen. People giving their money away have the right to give it away to whoever and whatever they want.

3. I do not agree completely on informed decisions. People can know everything about drugs and still choose to hit that smack. From what I have seen, there is often personal feelings and experiences that make parents choose speech or ASL or both. For example, a hearing mom that experiences great disapointment from the rest of family when the child is deaf, is much more prone to choose oral only, than a hearing that perhaps have an ASL interpreter in the family. A deaf family with bad experiences with oralism, perhaps needs to get forced to exposure their children to speech therapy to see if the child can benfit from that. Some rules here could make it easier for parents with great resistance in their family or prejudices that are hard to overcome. We need to give the deaf children some extra protection and rights so they can get early access to a full lanuage on the same level as hearing children. It should be banned to experiment with CI and restricting deaf children to oral languages.

4. Advertisement for drugs are quite often strict. The same should apply for CI. The brouchures I have seen looks like advertisement for toys, and feel they confuse more than clarify.
It is maybe you are choosing not to look at it.

5. Regarding FDA approval, deaf people with CI should be a part of the teams evaluating rules, to avoid sellers giving false information. Those could be selected by NAD and HOH organizations.

Ok, this was just some suggestions, that perhaps can help control the use of CI. I belive US can handle laws like this as they already have some strict laws on gay marriage, use of recreational drugs and sex behavior compared to some other countries :)

Now you are job is to go make these changes instead of just complaining.
 
I know what like to grow up with hearing parents that drive me crazy but also cause the family to become disconnect because my folks listen to doctors too much telling them how they should raise me. They told my folks at first the deaf children have a very slow learning disablities and it like retardations. That not true. They put me in speech classes to force me to learn to speak. I would have perfer sign language over speech. Doctors don't know everything about deaf and hoh all the time. Deaf child and hoh child can learn to read and write above 3rd grade and still do well up to 8th grade. I am pretty sure there are lot of deaf and hoh kids and deaf adults did very well with a good educations. My advice you can look up on internets that can be helpful to find a good deaf school that does good with a deaf child's educations programs. I know it can't be easy for you but honestly I think lots of doctors can be quacks sometimes they just smell money. :)

I agree with a lot of the things you said. Yes, doctors do not know everything. In our case the doctors were the ones that told me that my children would never talk, they were wrong. They also said my children would not read above a 3rd grade level, they were wrong, they both read at about a 10th grade level even higher then you suggested. Actually it wasn't easy in the beginning it is now. They are doing great with what they have and they know that if they want to switch, it is OK too.
 
Vallee, your stomach turned flips whenever there are private Catholic schools???? Whenever there are private Jewish schools???? Does that means you think that the private schools ought to be illegal??? :cool2:

I just remember where I read this. It came from a booklet from NAD and it is a reprint from "The Deaf American", Vol. 21, No. 11, July-August 1969, pages 3-6. Authors are McCay Vernon, Ph.D. and Bernard Makowsky, MSW. I'll read some parts.

......
"Of prime importance in this endeavor is an understanding of the factors present that permit minorities such as Jews, Mormons and Orientals to attain prominence and success in American society whereas other groups such as Puerto Ricans, Negroes and American Indians do not."
......
"By contrast Jews, Mormons and Orientals have either developed their own educational instituations, influenced public ones or combined these programs. In addition these minority groups are appropriately represented by their own in the overall political system assuring them of reasonable power and control over their basic socio-economic circumstance."
....
(It goes on about how "the Indians schools were dominated by white bureaucrats secure in well-paying civil positions" and that African-Americans and Puerto Ricans were put in ghetto schools "where the control is in the hand of the dominant group power structure." There is no deaf person in top administrative positions. Remember this paper is dated 1969. It is about time for the Deaf President of Gallaudet!!!!)
......
(This part talks of teachers who cannot fathom their students' life circumstances.) "Frequently there are low expectations or else a 'Lady Bountiful' milieu which is depreciating to minority group children and attack their self worth. The imposition of a value system in the best way may be undemocratic and in the final analysis is a reinforcement of an already poor self image."
.....
"The deaf youngster faces an analogous situation in many respects [Sanderson, 1969]. The National Association of the Deaf has long supported the use of the language of signs and finerspelling. Yet the child is taught that these modalities, the only ones he can master for purposes of full communication with other deaf persons and with his family, are bad. This negative value is transmitted by its being forbidden to him and his family by the school, His teachers rarely know the language and frequently refuse to use it if they do. Convertly and openly he and his parents are told that it is better if he chooses non-deaf friends, By contrast the Jew, the Greek Orthodox and the American Oriental teach their ethnic languages and relate them to English, the end result being a better mastery of both and a more healthy communication between child and family [Schlesinger 1967]."
....
"The discrimination against the deaf as a group may be observed on many levels. Most public school program for deaf children, as for example in Chicago, forbid the hiring of deaf teachers. There are many teacher preparation centers which will not accept deaf candidates [Newman, 1969]"
....
"Gallaudet, the world's only college for the deaf, has a policy of selection and requirements for educational certification that discourages and/or eliminates many deaf young people from becoming teachers." (Since Shel90 is a teacher so this must have been dropped since then.)
....
"Needless to say the 'in group' educational power structure has resented the change in established procedures which has given more authority to deaf leadership. In reaction it has moved through other governmental agencies to create organizations and programs where control is not with deaf persons, but where the activities are termed 'for the hearing impared', yet where power and key positions are denied deaf persons."
....
"By analogy what has happened quite often is that majority group misconceptions and values, for example the limiting of teaching to just 'oral' methods alone are being imposed on a minority. This ignoring of minority group sensitivity to minority group needs has inherent in it damaging, sociological and psychological effects on deaf students.
It is improbable that the educational establishment and its governmental bureaucrats will yield of their own accord to needed changes. Education is enormously clever at avoiding self examination and it is a full of an impentetrable web of vested interest. If progress is to come about, it will probably result from aggressive deaf leadership, new knowledge gained from psychology and sociology and from new professionals entering the field of deafness. Until this occurs there will continue to be an inapproprate and insensitive impostion of majority group values on a minority, a process which is undemocratic which fails to respect the rights of others and which as a damaging effect upon the individual."
.....
(This goes on and it is 5 pages long. I am reminding you again that this paper is from 1969. It may be old but it does speak to me deeply.)



Vallee, now do you see where I got this idea that there should be a separate deaf school with all deaf members of the school board? Jillio told me that my alma mater do get together with a hearing school for social times. I thought that was a great idea. I also know that my alma mater opens their door to hearing kids with aphasia. I thought that was a perfect school for them as hearing kids will make fun of them for sure. The deaf kids won't make fun of them as they won't know if they are speaking badly.

Jackie, this post is in keeping of your thread as well. I know you and Vallee won't agree with this paper but this paper was written by two hearing guys with degrees. It is hard for us to respect you (pro-oral) when we weren't being respected at all. Now, do you see why many of us deaf people are upset with oral only methold and even CI??? We weren't even respected at all and in fact we were being oppressed ever since the 1880 Milan Conference. No fighing, please. I am not using nasty words or things like that. I am just pointing out why many of us were upset at the education.

I like this paper very much even though it is old. Hey, I was still in that oral day school when this came out.

No fighting, please as I want to learn all I can about how to get to that school board. Elect to a school board and I bet that the school board is for hearing schools and deaf school, right??? How do one create a new school board? Tell me, Vallee.

You probable cannot creat a new school board but you could be elected onto an existing school board.
These papers were written a long time ago. Look all the awful things done to so many people that were the same as the majority, look at what they did to African Americans. I know still now I feel what people think of Mexicans in California. I am not going to fight with you times are changing.
 
One of the deaf teachers at my work said that our days are numbered. Who wants to hire deaf teachers who dont have perfect speech?

When I read stories to my son, I alternate between ASL and spoken English. With signing, I feel comfortable and I can exaggerate but with spoken English, I always feel out of breath like I am reading the story too fast. It is just not comfortable for me and I cant imagine teaching all day using my voice..it wouldnt feel natural. Then there is the issue of understanding what the kids are saying to me. No thanks for me. I would rather quit and find another job in another field.

But why would you be out of a job. Oral and CI are not for every child. There is always going to be need for deaf teacher to teach in sign language. I don't get it. CI and oral can work but it is not for every deaf child.
 
Now you are job is to go make these changes instead of just complaining.

What a nightmare it would be for you if those laws was passed. Imagine, deaf people deciding themselves what is good for them... Scary!

As every responsible deaf person would do after meeting too many children deprived of language with wounds from oralism, you bet I do, and will do anything I am capable of to fight the oral terrorism you promote. Don't worry if you think I am just sitting and complaining.
 
What a nightmare it would be for you if those laws was passed. Imagine, deaf people deciding themselves what is good for them... Scary!

As every responsible deaf person would do after meeting too many children deprived of language with wounds from oralism, you bet I do, and will do anything I am capable of to fight the oral terrorism you promote. Don't worry if you think I am just sitting and complaining.

Can I join u? :)
 
Thanks for the bit of good news. I still think there should be a school for the Deaf run by the Deaf.

They do exists. Maryland School of deaf have a deaf superintedent. So do a couple of schools in europe I know of. To me, it seems that the quality and standard of education rise sharply if there is a deaf superintedent. Something similar also seems to be the case when the superintedent is a CODA or former terp.
 
They do exists. Maryland School of deaf have a deaf superintedent. So do a couple of schools in europe I know of. To me, it seems that the quality and standard of education rise sharply if there is a deaf superintedent. Something similar also seems to be the case when the superintedent is a CODA or former terp.

Yea, I see the same too.
 
It all goes back to the old saying "Nothing for us without us."
Policy needs to be decided with the deaf perspective available for input.

You said in two sentences what I tried to say with a lengthy post. Thanks for the elegant summary :)
 
:) Maybe the majority of the board would be deaf if there isn't enough deaf people involved. There is not too many Deaf professionals. I don't know how the other Deaf people would want - all Deaf or majority of Deaf on board.

Absolutley. The majority should be deaf, or at the very least CODA. Again, "nothing for us without us."
 
You said in two sentences what I tried to say with a lengthy post. Thanks for the elegant summary :)

YW. That is the slogan I try to keep at the top of my priority list. Ask the deaf what they need and listen to their answers. Proceed from there.
 
You probable cannot creat a new school board but you could be elected onto an existing school board.
These papers were written a long time ago. Look all the awful things done to so many people that were the same as the majority, look at what they did to African Americans. I know still now I feel what people think of Mexicans in California. I am not going to fight with you times are changing.

Very little has changed. Look around.
 
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