Reasons behind oralism

[shel90]

I agree it's different with children today, with better accesibility to interpreters and education for their parents.

CODAs from the 60's and 70's with parents who had full time jobs, was leaders or had important roles in the deaf clubs and good deaf friends(that's what I mean with wealthy), seems to be more positive about the bi-bi philosophy.

It's much easier to be a CODA today with better acceptace from the majority on ASL, ASL taught at university level, right to interpreters, bi-bi programs popping up at charter schools everywhere. It's almost getting cool to be a CODA

I think CODAs who have a bad experience with Deaf culture or sign language are those whose parents relied on them heavily to communicate with non-signers. I think that is a big no-no. Children are not responsible for accodomating adults whether they are deaf or hearing themselves. That goes for deaf children of hearing adults too.

 

[jillio]

I think CODAs who have a bad experience with Deaf culture or sign language are those whose parents relied on them heavily to communicate with non-signers. I think that is a big no-no. Children are not responsible for accodomating adults whether they are deaf or hearing themselves. That goes for deaf children of hearing adults too.

**nodding**

 

[deafbajagal]

Full intergration in a hearing society...beautiful dream.

I once was at the governor's ball, socializing and mixing very well with all sorts of people. At the end of the night the governor's wife pulled me aside to thank me for setting up some things she remarked on how amazed she was that I was able to fully participate with the party, by going from one group to another with ease - making people laugh, etc. She knew that I was profoundly deaf and typically use ASL for communication, but will speak if needed.

I looked at her and said, "Oh, thank god. I was afraid my acting skills had gotten rusty! All you have to do is nod a lot, say the scripted words, and move on as fast as you can before they start to ask things off the topic." The look her face was priceless.

At the next event, she introduced me to someone she had requested to be there. My very own ASL interpreter.

 

[Matilda]

Yes, you may pass my posting on. I am only able to take the Deaf perspective because the Deaf community was gracious enough to take me under their collective wing and teach me what I needed to know at the time I needed it the most.

Thank you for the compliments!

----------------

Jillio!

 

[loml]

my father grew up during the depression and saw the some of the worse parts of humanity.

to him, signing is all and good, but to make money to support yourself, youre gonna have to learn how to function in an oral only enviroment. Otherwise your gonna be doomed to menial back breaking labor.

Look at the jobs non english speaking immigrants do. Usually jobs like picking fruit, landscaping washing dishes etc. The ones that learn english move up the ladder to better paying jobs, sometimes managing the non english speaking workers.

Learning oral skills is a necessary evil for the deaf. You read how some hearing people make the biggest deal of the littlest of accomidations. Like refusing to communicate through writing when ordering food in a resturant, doctor refusing to provide a terp for his patient.

I think we may be to hard on the oralists. Their heart is in the right place but they dont know any better. The differently abled have less rights than minorities. Their disability is some people not liking the color of their skin or the curlyness of their hair. If theyre that petty about those insignificant things, just imagine how they think of us.

I think some of the oral professionals paramount concern was helping us becoming self sufficient, self determining individuals. Unfortunatly they was wrong about some things like discouraging the use of sign.

Excellent post Doug5!

 

[Matilda]

I looked at her and said, "Oh, thank god. I was afraid my acting skills had gotten rusty! All you have to do is nod a lot, say the scripted words, and move on as fast as you can before they start to ask things off the topic." The look her face was priceless.

---------

Yes! that's how I feel mingling among the hearing at any social gatherings .... nodding your head and smile here & there .... it's a very intimidating feeling .... like a 'fish out of water'!

 

[flip]

my father grew up during the depression and saw the some of the worse parts of humanity.

to him, signing is all and good, but to make money to support yourself, youre gonna have to learn how to function in an oral only enviroment. Otherwise your gonna be doomed to menial back breaking labor.

Look at the jobs non english speaking immigrants do. Usually jobs like picking fruit, landscaping washing dishes etc. The ones that learn english move up the ladder to better paying jobs, sometimes managing the non english speaking workers.

Learning oral skills is a necessary evil for the deaf. You read how some hearing people make the biggest deal of the littlest of accomidations. Like refusing to communicate through writing when ordering food in a resturant, doctor refusing to provide a terp for his patient.

I think we may be to hard on the oralists. Their heart is in the right place but they dont know any better. The differently abled have less rights than minorities. Their disability is some people not liking the color of their skin or the curlyness of their hair. If theyre that petty about those insignificant things, just imagine how they think of us.

I think some of the oral professionals paramount concern was helping us becoming self sufficient, self determining individuals. Unfortunatly they was wrong about some things like discouraging the use of sign.

I forgot to mention immigrants when I listed the causes of oralism. You are right that immigrants are in need to learn the major languages where they moves to get out of poverty. Most deaf teachers I have met, confirms that it's hard to convince those parents that early sign language is a benefit. They are so stoked on english to get a job, it's hard to gasp that their children will have any need of ASL beside social chatting.

I don't agree that oral skills is a necessary evil for the deaf. It's a handy skill if the deaf child develops it without huge amounts of pressure.

Look around, and you will perhaps notice that those who are most fluent in sign language, are the one making most money, not those with best oral skills. This is also known from a survey from denmark.

And I agree oralists aren't evil in their heart, just have it all wrong.

 

[loml]

flip

It's a handy skill if the deaf child develops it without huge amounts of pressure.

How would you teach oral skills? What is your vision? What do you see as parameters for what is a huge amount of pressure and what is not?

 

[flip]

flip
How would you teach oral skills? What is your vision? What do you see as parameters for what is a huge amount of pressure and what is not?

When the child develop speech with ease, it's without pressure. Early ASL for the child for language skills, medium ASL fluency and hearing parents is more than great for this. When you child have this, then formal speech training by professonials will give the best possible results!

Whatever the results of this, your child will be more than happy with the strong language skills given by early ASL. Written english skills is far more important than speech skills, and you have avoided language deprivation, that often happens when the child only is exposured to oral languages. Those kids who develop speech skills with exposure to oral languages only, will have worse speech skills than those exposured to early ASL, too.

Ideas like AVT, going against research done on speech development the last decades or redundant visual phonemic system like cued speech, representing extreme ideas, will add unecessary pressure on the child.

Hope this helps.

 

[doubletrouble]

I have more than once experienced that the choice between bi-bi and oralism is seldom done by facts. More often, it's personal experiences and the surroundings. Here is some few reasons for going oral that I have encountered:

Insecurity. Those people are on alert what the majority thinks and do. Often they are insecure with their own feelings, and listen to doctors for what to do. As deaf people belong to a minority, they don't have the self esteem to seek out deaf people for advice.

CODAs with parents who was forsaken by the society. Some of those CODAs don't understand the concept of fluency in sign language and self esteem. It's so strange to them, and they often strugle with the ASL community and the deafness of their parents. They ask themselves if they was forsaken by their parents, or the deaf community. We see the oposite among CODAs with wealthy parents within the deaf community.

Relatives of new parents. Many families struggle with a unhealthy pathology. Deaf people born into this kind of families often gets victims of contest on powers, positions and acceptance. Full speech development is often a victory for those parents. Sometimes, they realize bi-bi will give the best results, but often a pure oral method with the technology getting the most praises will impress most relatives.

What do you think?

I disagree with your post. I am a CODA and grew up in the 1970's. I was the interpreter for my parents and their biggest advocate. I did not have an easy childhood. That being said, I became an interpreter and a job coach (before I became a teacher). I know ALL the negatives and postiives of being Deaf.. I've lived it. I never thought that I would have a deaf child. All my parents friends who were Deaf all had hearing children. No one in my age group was Deaf. I had a daughter- hearing. Then I had a set of twins, one was deaf and one was hearing. Immediately, I was going to place my child in a bi-bi program. I had seen firsthand the terrble affects of "oral" children and I didn't want that for my child. Then I was asked to be open-minded. It opened up my eyes. I am not trying to make my child "hearing" - he is deaf and will always will be. He has the best of both worlds and is not denied anything in educaiton. He is reading is at 2 grade levels above (he is currently in 4th grade). He is smart as a whip. And if you want to tell me it's my upbringing that made me implant my child, I would agree with you. My son is able to communicate with ANYONE with ease- and my son is exttemely confident. He knows that his is deaf, but his deafness does not define him. You make it sound like CODA's are trying to "fix" their children by the way they grew up. It's absurd and I take great offense to this. It reminds me of when my mother used to scream at me that I am a bad daughter for not accepting my son as he is.- that I hate Deaf people-which is further from the truth. In fact, I feel BLESSED and HONORED to be his mother.I am GRACED by God's blessings for choosing me to be my son's mother. And by the way, my Deaf brother in law & sister in law have implanted their children and they too, are mainstreamed..

 

[jillio]

I disagree with your post. I am a CODA and grew up in the 1970's. I was the interpreter for my parents and their biggest advocate. I did not have an easy childhood. That being said, I became an interpreter and a job coach (before I became a teacher). I know ALL the negatives and postiives of being Deaf.. I've lived it. I never thought that I would have a deaf child. All my parents friends who were Deaf all had hearing children. No one in my age group was Deaf. I had a daughter- hearing. Then I had a set of twins, one was deaf and one was hearing. Immediately, I was going to place my child in a bi-bi program. I had seen firsthand the terrble affects of "oral" children and I didn't want that for my child. Then I was asked to be open-minded. It opened up my eyes. I am not trying to make my child "hearing" - he is deaf and will always will be. He has the best of both worlds and is not denied anything in educaiton. He is reading is at 2 grade levels above (he is currently in 4th grade). He is smart as a whip. And if you want to tell me it's my upbringing that made me implant my child, I would agree with you. My son is able to communicate with ANYONE with ease- and my son is exttemely confident. He knows that his is deaf, but his deafness does not define him. You make it sound like CODA's are trying to "fix" their children by the way they grew up. It's absurd and I take great offense to this. It reminds me of when my mother used to scream at me that I am a bad daughter for not accepting my son as he is.- that I hate Deaf people-which is further from the truth. In fact, I feel BLESSED and HONORED to be his mother.I am GRACED by God's blessings for choosing me to be my son's mother. And by the way, my Deaf brother in law & sister in law have implanted their children and they too, are mainstreamed..

Your son, and your brother-in-law and sister in law most definately have a very advantageous situation. They are implanted and they also have full exposure to deaf culture and ASL. It wish it were so for more implanted chidlren.

 

[flip]

I disagree with your post. I am a CODA and grew up in the 1970's. I was the interpreter for my parents and their biggest advocate. I did not have an easy childhood. That being said, I became an interpreter and a job coach (before I became a teacher). I know ALL the negatives and postiives of being Deaf.. I've lived it. I never thought that I would have a deaf child. All my parents friends who were Deaf all had hearing children. No one in my age group was Deaf. I had a daughter- hearing. Then I had a set of twins, one was deaf and one was hearing. Immediately, I was going to place my child in a bi-bi program. I had seen firsthand the terrble affects of "oral" children and I didn't want that for my child. Then I was asked to be open-minded. It opened up my eyes. I am not trying to make my child "hearing" - he is deaf and will always will be. He has the best of both worlds and is not denied anything in educaiton. He is reading is at 2 grade levels above (he is currently in 4th grade). He is smart as a whip. And if you want to tell me it's my upbringing that made me implant my child, I would agree with you. My son is able to communicate with ANYONE with ease- and my son is exttemely confident. He knows that his is deaf, but his deafness does not define him. You make it sound like CODA's are trying to "fix" their children by the way they grew up. It's absurd and I take great offense to this. It reminds me of when my mother used to scream at me that I am a bad daughter for not accepting my son as he is.- that I hate Deaf people-which is further from the truth. In fact, I feel BLESSED and HONORED to be his mother.I am GRACED by God's blessings for choosing me to be my son's mother. And by the way, my Deaf brother in law & sister in law have implanted their children and they too, are mainstreamed..

Must admit I simplified this reason for going oral. I was told that it's important for CODAs to see their parents interact with other deaf people, being normal, so made some guesses here. I also have met a CODA that did not threat deaf people very well. But this is perhaps a so small part of CODAs, it's irrelevant, and don't necessary does have anything with beeing a CODA to do.

By the replies I got to that reason for going oral, both from deaf, hearings and CODAs, I am realizing it's not a very interesting or valid reason, so let me just find the basket and throw that reason, and sorry for offending CODAs here. One of my best friends when I grew up was a CODA, and we still keep in touch, in case some of you think I have issues with CODAs

 

[shel90]

Your son, and your brother-in-law and sister in law most definately have a very advantageous situation. They are implanted and they also have full exposure to deaf culture and ASL. It wish it were so for more implanted chidlren.

Same here...it is a bummer.

 

[Holly]

Same here...it is a bummer.

yeah, many CODAs, siblings of deaf children, parents of deaf children, etc... don't realize what a value and blessing it is to be able to be involved in both hearing and deaf cultures.

 

[deafbajagal]

Your son, and your brother-in-law and sister in law most definately have a very advantageous situation. They are implanted and they also have full exposure to deaf culture and ASL. It wish it were so for more implanted chidlren.

You took the words out of my mouth .

 

[shel90]

yeah, many CODAs, siblings of deaf children, parents of deaf children, etc... don't realize what a value and blessing it is to be able to be involved in both hearing and deaf cultures.

I wish I had that opportunity growing up so I wouldnt have to live with the constant stress of using my weakest sense to communicate 24/7. Would have been nice to have a balance cuz I know it is not realistic to expect every hearing person to sign but dont put me in a non-signing environment 24/7! Now, I seem to be in the signing environment more cuz I have way too many scars from growing up in an oral-only environment. If I had a healthy balance of both, maybe I wouldnt feel this way. Who knows?

 

[deafbajagal]

I was hoping to hear from more CODAs for their feedback...anymore CODAs out there? Doubletrouble's recent posting was really interesting.

 

[Boult]

I disagree with your post. I am a CODA and grew up in the 1970's. I was the interpreter for my parents and their biggest advocate. I did not have an easy childhood. That being said, I became an interpreter and a job coach (before I became a teacher). I know ALL the negatives and postiives of being Deaf.. I've lived it. I never thought that I would have a deaf child. All my parents friends who were Deaf all had hearing children. No one in my age group was Deaf. I had a daughter- hearing. Then I had a set of twins, one was deaf and one was hearing. Immediately, I was going to place my child in a bi-bi program. I had seen firsthand the terrble affects of "oral" children and I didn't want that for my child. Then I was asked to be open-minded. It opened up my eyes. I am not trying to make my child "hearing" - he is deaf and will always will be. He has the best of both worlds and is not denied anything in educaiton. He is reading is at 2 grade levels above (he is currently in 4th grade). He is smart as a whip. And if you want to tell me it's my upbringing that made me implant my child, I would agree with you. My son is able to communicate with ANYONE with ease- and my son is exttemely confident. He knows that his is deaf, but his deafness does not define him. You make it sound like CODA's are trying to "fix" their children by the way they grew up. It's absurd and I take great offense to this. It reminds me of when my mother used to scream at me that I am a bad daughter for not accepting my son as he is.- that I hate Deaf people-which is further from the truth. In fact, I feel BLESSED and HONORED to be his mother.I am GRACED by God's blessings for choosing me to be my son's mother. And by the way, my Deaf brother in law & sister in law have implanted their children and they too, are mainstreamed..

+1 Awesome!

(too bad I can't pm or email you in private)

 

[Raykat]

I disagree with your post. I am a CODA and grew up in the 1970's. I was the interpreter for my parents and their biggest advocate. I did not have an easy childhood. That being said, I became an interpreter and a job coach (before I became a teacher). I know ALL the negatives and postiives of being Deaf.. I've lived it. I never thought that I would have a deaf child. All my parents friends who were Deaf all had hearing children. No one in my age group was Deaf. I had a daughter- hearing. Then I had a set of twins, one was deaf and one was hearing. Immediately, I was going to place my child in a bi-bi program. I had seen firsthand the terrble affects of "oral" children and I didn't want that for my child. Then I was asked to be open-minded. It opened up my eyes. I am not trying to make my child "hearing" - he is deaf and will always will be. He has the best of both worlds and is not denied anything in educaiton. He is reading is at 2 grade levels above (he is currently in 4th grade). He is smart as a whip. And if you want to tell me it's my upbringing that made me implant my child, I would agree with you. My son is able to communicate with ANYONE with ease- and my son is exttemely confident. He knows that his is deaf, but his deafness does not define him. You make it sound like CODA's are trying to "fix" their children by the way they grew up. It's absurd and I take great offense to this. It reminds me of when my mother used to scream at me that I am a bad daughter for not accepting my son as he is.- that I hate Deaf people-which is further from the truth. In fact, I feel BLESSED and HONORED to be his mother.I am GRACED by God's blessings for choosing me to be my son's mother. And by the way, my Deaf brother in law & sister in law have implanted their children and they too, are mainstreamed..

Great post, agree with everything said

 

[Raykat]

Your son, and your brother-in-law and sister in law most definately have a very advantageous situation. They are implanted and they also have full exposure to deaf culture and ASL. It wish it were so for more implanted chidlren.

I think she is saying her Deaf (capital D) brother and sister inlaw had their children implanted, not that the brother and sister in law themselves are implanted.