question about deaf people's writing skill

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No, I understand about the concept part. I already know this. But when it comes to individual words that are signed for that specific word such as "no", it isn't a "symbol" or anything but just a transliteration-like use of the exact letters of N and O. ;)
 
That's strange cuz the regular ed students at my work have been using ASL since birth and their parents have learned ASL or have deaf parents. They are the ones who are ahead in reading/writing and math than those deaf who have been referred from mainstreamed programs using oral or SEE. I have one student who just came from the public school. She signs in exact English and she cant even read more than 80 words!

I think we all have to look at what happened with the children during their first 5 years of life. Did they have full access to language 24/7? I think that is the key...I honestly dont know why I am able to read and write this well (I wish I was better) considering I missed out soooo much growing up being in an oral-only mainstreamed program. Honestly, that scares the shit out of me cuz if I didnt have the motivation to learn, I sure would be in a fucked up situation now.
Well, most of the students who entered that elementary school were at least 7 years of age (they transferred into 1st or 2nd grade). Most of the students who entered into kindergarten or the 1st grade came from families that didn't sign cuz they didn't know about it or they were foreign. So, they were exposed to MMS first. Most of them graduated at grade level, went to college, and got degrees.

From my high school... from the class of 1992 to the class of 1999... with an average of 3 deaf students per grade... only 6 got at least 1 college degree. The 7th recently got his AAS degree after going to community college for 13 years.

The rest of them are either working many jobs, knocked up out of marriage, or married with kids... but no education.
 
No, I understand about the concept part. I already know this. But when it comes to individual words that are signed for that specific word such as "no", it isn't a "symbol" or anything but just a transliteration-like use of the exact letters of N and O. ;)

Oh boy... you really are an asshole.... you dont understand how deaf people s mind works..... you had not living in the deaf world entirely.... otherwise you would have understand if you did.....you judge us people.. you are not perfect at all...so are we....
 
signs from pictures

I understand this argument about derivation of ASL signs from English or concepts.
The main reason hearing people think there is a correlation between English words and signs is because they have not been exposed to signs that do not translate well, because most of the signs were adopted by people who came from the American culture.
Anyone who has learned a foreign language be it Polish German or Spanish, knows that there are words in those languages that are hard to translate. Words that don't exist in our culture, that need a paragraph to explain the concept. For example ask a German person to explain Gemutlikeit sp? It's a concept of comraderies and togetherness with strangers an example of which is Oktoberfest.

Most people have not delved into those kinds of signs in ASL.

I too would say that the idea of ASL is flexible like any language with a small vocabulary (like hebrew or arabic). It does not have different forms of words for tenses. It does not have a gender rules for it's nouns requiring different endings. Mechanics are simple in that manner.

However making the vocabulary and options communicate what you want clearly is something to be mastered. Just like any language people can improve in it's use indefinitely, but initial use is not as complex as English would be as a second language. Only mastery.

Metamantis
 
Well, most of the students who entered that elementary school were at least 7 years of age (they transferred into 1st or 2nd grade). Most of the students who entered into kindergarten or the 1st grade came from families that didn't sign cuz they didn't know about it or they were foreign. So, they were exposed to MMS first. Most of them graduated at grade level, went to college, and got degrees.

From my high school... from the class of 1992 to the class of 1999... with an average of 3 deaf students per grade... only 6 got at least 1 college degree. The 7th recently got his AAS degree after going to community college for 13 years.

The rest of them are either working many jobs, knocked up out of marriage, or married with kids... but no education.

So those who didn't get a college degree are the ones whose reading/writing skills r weak?

From my personal experience, it didnt matter..it depended on the individual's desire. My best friend who is deaf, and another deaf guy and I grew up together in oral only prgrams without ever being exposed to ASL. My best friend was placed 1 grade above us even though we were all the same age cuz she was performing better than us. Well, I was the only one out of the 3 who got college degrees. Both of them r married...the guy is working for his dad and my best friend is a homemaker..she has never held a job for long.

My brother has a college degree and is currently studying for his master's despite not being able to pick up on oral language and having to learn ASL at the age of 5. He struggled with his English skills but took action while at Gallaudet and started taking extra classes to improve his writing skills. They aren't perfect but a whole lot better than when he graduated from high school. However, he grew up learning more advanced concepts in literacy and math than I did. I got by barely with classes like math, science, and, yes, English cuz I missed out on what was being discussed in class due to my inability to understand everything being said. I just did whatever I could to get by so I could graduate..I felt I never really learned much. I was so niave about how things worked in the world upon graduation as opposed to my brother who knew about debt, being independent, and how to apply for different jobs when he graduated. I think my brother, despite his weak English skills, had more knowledge than I did growing up. He was involved in different clubs like the student council, dramatics and sports while I was only involved with softball. I tried joining a club but everyone talked too fast and I couldn't understand what they were saying so I was left out a lot despite my attempts to stay involved so it turned me off. That's why I wish I knew sign language growing up ..at least I would have an interpreter there but because I didn't know sign language so there was no point of hiring a terp for me or at least what was what the schools said. I believed that I didn't need one but looking back I didn't know shit.

I felt my teachers never really took the time to interact with me..they seemed impatient with me cuz I was always asking them to repeat themselves. My brother told me that he felt bonded with many of his teachers at the deaf school.

Oh well..at least I got to experience real learning when I went to Gallaudet. I don't care how many people here say how shitty Gallaudet is..I just remember a hell a lot more about what I learned in my classes than what I learned at Arizona State. At ASU, I was doing whatever to get by cuz I couldn't understand the oral terps and I was just learning ASL. By the time I was fluent in it enough to get an ASL terp, I was in my last semseter at ASU.
 
So those who didn't get a college degree are the ones whose reading/writing skills r weak?

From my personal experience, it didnt matter..it depended on the individual's desire. My best friend who is deaf, and another deaf guy and I grew up together in oral only prgrams without ever being exposed to ASL. My best friend was placed 1 grade above us even though we were all the same age cuz she was performing better than us. Well, I was the only one out of the 3 who got college degrees. Both of them r married...the guy is working for his dad and my best friend is a homemaker..she has never held a job for long.

My brother has a college degree and is currently studying for his master's despite not being able to pick up on oral language and having to learn ASL at the age of 5. He struggled with his English skills but took action while at Gallaudet and started taking extra classes to improve his writing skills. They aren't perfect but a whole lot better than when he graduated from high school. However, he grew up learning more advanced concepts in literacy and math than I did. I got by barely with classes like math, science, and, yes, English cuz I missed out on what was being discussed in class due to my inability to understand everything being said. I just did whatever I could to get by so I could graduate..I felt I never really learned much. I was so niave about how things worked in the world upon graduation as opposed to my brother who knew about debt, being independent, and how to apply for different jobs when he graduated. I think my brother, despite his weak English skills, had more knowledge than I did growing up. He was involved in different clubs like the student council, dramatics and sports while I was only involved with softball. I tried joining a club but everyone talked too fast and I couldn't understand what they were saying so I was left out a lot despite my attempts to stay involved so it turned me off. That's why I wish I knew sign language growing up ..at least I would have an interpreter there but because I didn't know sign language so there was no point of hiring a terp for me or at least what was what the schools said. I believed that I didn't need one but looking back I didn't know shit.

I felt my teachers never really took the time to interact with me..they seemed impatient with me cuz I was always asking them to repeat themselves. My brother told me that he felt bonded with many of his teachers at the deaf school.

Oh well..at least I got to experience real learning when I went to Gallaudet. I don't care how many people here say how shitty Gallaudet is..I just remember a hell a lot more about what I learned in my classes than what I learned at Arizona State. At ASU, I was doing whatever to get by cuz I couldn't understand the oral terps and I was just learning ASL. By the time I was fluent in it enough to get an ASL terp, I was in my last semseter at ASU.
It's related to a few things: reading/writing skills, 'deaf psychosis', and ignorance.

What's up with 'deaf psychosis'? Well, there were some guys who felt that they didn't need to depend on hearing people to employ them and preferred to work with only deaf people or a bunch of deaf people. These guys managed to find a job at one company where they all got to work together in one department. After a few years, most (or all) of them were fired from their jobs due to a few things. They were always... on their pagers, talking to each other, giving hearing co-workers a hard time, etc. One of them got his girlfriend pregnant. They later broke up. He got his next girlfriend pregnant. He's still jobless. Another got his girlfriend pregnant and both were forced to get married (family values). He now is an overnight stocker. Another got married, but divorced months later. He got his next girlfriend pregnant... I think twice. Another one finally got his AAS degree... 13 years later.

Oh, reading and writing skills? Many did manage to get into college, but they gave up or were kicked out because they sucked badly or took too long. One came to NTID and failed so many classes that his VR cut support. He left and went to community college. He came back to NTID a couple years later, fucked up again... and left. Oh yeah, let's not forget the guy who took 13 years to get his AAS degree... cuz he struggled with his reading and writing. One guy graduated from my high school with a reading, writing, and math level that was so fucking horrible that it makes elementary school kids look smarter. The deaf department convinced the school to modify his failing grades (to C's) so that he could move on to the next grade. After graduating, he ended up living with his parents and doing 'maintenance engineering' work for his parents.

What about ignorance? One gal came to RIT and seemed to be doing fine at first. She then considered herself to be 'above' the inferior deaf students that she only hung out with a few people that she knew she could control and manipulate. She manipulated one gal to be her roommate while she cheats her. She managed to be girlfriend to a guy who was one of those 'inferior deafies' knowing that she could have sex with other guys without him knowing. Even though he found out, she didn't care cuz he was too lovesick for her. While she was at RIT, she got pregnant then an abortion... then left school. She came back, then left again. Another gal came to RIT, but decided to be 'cool' by drinking and getting stoned. She got pregnant and left school. She broke up with her boyfriend and married her next boyfriend. She still has no college degree.

Your brother kept going. He improved. That's good for him. I know one deaf gal who got an AAS, a BS, and a MS degree all from NTID/RIT. Now, she's a teacher.

Math, Reading, and Writing are the 3 key things that most colleges expect us to do well at before doing anything else. Some people do manage to get by without them, but that's a rarity. Like I said, ignorance is part of some of the problems. They may suck at reading/writing, but they could have at least tried to work harder instead of just giving up and doing other stupid things like getting drunk/stoned and getting pregnant.

Yes, teachers are also important. That was also part of the problem in my mainstream school. Almost all of my mainstream teachers were positive with us. All (except 2) of the deaf education teachers were real pricks and cruel to the deaf students. Then, they let them pass to the next grade as if they don't care. When I talked to them and asked them why they don't let the deaf students learn real English, they told me that it's because those students are deaf and need to be treated like children.

That's why the world is fucked up with teachers being pricks and deaf people being lazy and ignorant.
 
I agree with metamantis on his/hers reply. The person states some good points and more. But then again I have to state but good post metamantis :gpost: :type:


I better :bowdown: to metamantis with how good that reply was!!:giggle:
 
I agree with metamantis on his/hers reply. The person states some good points and more. But then again I have to state but good post metamantis :gpost: :type:


I better :bowdown: to metamantis with how good that reply was!!:giggle:

AGREE!

I second that! :h5:
 
Oh boy... you really are an asshole.... you dont understand how deaf people s mind works..... you had not living in the deaf world entirely.... otherwise you would have understand if you did.....you judge us people.. you are not perfect at all...so are we....

Again, don't attack me. I wasn't being an ass. I am deaf myself but I never took linguistics class. Does that make me any less deafer? Look at me right now - I am in the deaf world. Again, I said repeatedly that I understood her point and I accept it as a language. Where have I judged anyone? I never said I was perfect. I'm sorry but you're becoming ridiculous.
 
Again, don't attack me. I wasn't being an ass. I am deaf myself but I never took linguistics class. Does that make me any less deafer? Look at me right now - I am in the deaf world. Again, I said repeatedly that I understood her point and I accept it as a language. Where have I judged anyone? I never said I was perfect. I'm sorry but you're becoming ridiculous.

This from the guy who ridicules Christians everywhere.
 
No, I understand about the concept part. I already know this. But when it comes to individual words that are signed for that specific word such as "no", it isn't a "symbol" or anything but just a transliteration-like use of the exact letters of N and O. ;)

The sign itself is the symbol, just as the word "no" is a different symbol both communicating a concept of negative.
 
Wow

I don't know what to say. I'm just a little shocked by some of the things that have been said.

1) Languages can be learned sequentially without the first language "ruining" the learning of the second (or third) language. I didn't learn English until I was ten and I consider myself to be fully bilingual and always pass for American whenever I'm in the States.

2) I certainly don't think learning ASL is easy or that the language is simple in any way. Out of the languages I've studied so far, which are quite a few, ASL has been the most difficult.

3) The fact that some languages have overlapping vocabularies doesn't mean that one is derived from the other. It has always been my understanding that ASL is mostly derived from LSF. There's obviously language borrowing going on, but that's a different story altogether. I think these kinds of processes are even more common in bilingual communities. My own language (Swedish) has been borrowing heavily from English in the last 75 years, just like it borrowed words from French in the 1700's and German in the late middle ages. The English language is famous for having borrowed from pretty much everyone (hence the size of its vocabulary).
 
I have to agree that English has borrowed a lot from other languages, especially the French language. When I studied French, I noticed that a lot of words were similar, and it improved my English as well. It is very interesting how studying a foreign language can actually improve your competency or comprehension in your own native language. That is also the reason why I like learning different foreign sign languages, especially the modern LSF, because I think it has helped me to improve my ASL as well, even though there are occasional episodes of PSE/SEE.
 
I have to agree that English has borrowed a lot from other languages, especially the French language. When I studied French, I noticed that a lot of words were similar, and it improved my English as well. It is very interesting how studying a foreign language can actually improve your competency or comprehension in your own native language. That is also the reason why I like learning different foreign sign languages, especially the modern LSF, because I think it has helped me to improve my ASL as well, even though there are occasional episodes of PSE/SEE.

Absolutely. And when you come right down to it, ASL is as much a derivative of French sign language as it is spoken English.
 
I don't know what to say. I'm just a little shocked by some of the things that have been said.

1) Languages can be learned sequentially without the first language "ruining" the learning of the second (or third) language. I didn't learn English until I was ten and I consider myself to be fully bilingual and always pass for American whenever I'm in the States.

2) I certainly don't think learning ASL is easy or that the language is simple in any way. Out of the languages I've studied so far, which are quite a few, ASL has been the most difficult.

3) The fact that some languages have overlapping vocabularies doesn't mean that one is derived from the other. It has always been my understanding that ASL is mostly derived from LSF. There's obviously language borrowing going on, but that's a different story altogether. I think these kinds of processes are even more common in bilingual communities. My own language (Swedish) has been borrowing heavily from English in the last 75 years, just like it borrowed words from French in the 1700's and German in the late middle ages. The English language is famous for having borrowed from pretty much everyone (hence the size of its vocabulary).

100% agreement!
 
Speak first - Sign language later on ??? NO ! It is so easy to miss words/misunderstanding. I prefer that a deaf child learn by sign language first. I grew up in an oral school. The education is so bad that in the latter years, I learned more from books at home than at school.
I agree with Vampryox that there are teachers for the deaf who are terrible to students and some students being lazy and ignorant (more like looking for an easy way out).
I understand that the first 5 years of life is formative. Could that be another reason for the deaf kid to be so behind when his/her parents don't know sign language?
I wish I could remember where I saw a post where a teacher for the deaf admitted that she let grammar mistakes slid. That makes me see red. I feel strongly that that teacher is not doing her students any favor.
I am glad that my love of reading helps me out in a big way.
 
Speak first - Sign language later on ??? NO ! It is so easy to miss words/misunderstanding. I prefer that a deaf child learn by sign language first. I grew up in an oral school. The education is so bad that in the latter years, I learned more from books at home than at school.
I agree with Vampryox that there are teachers for the deaf who are terrible to students and some students being lazy and ignorant (more like looking for an easy way out).
I understand that the first 5 years of life is formative. Could that be another reason for the deaf kid to be so behind when his/her parents don't know sign language?
I wish I could remember where I saw a post where a teacher for the deaf admitted that she let grammar mistakes slid. That makes me see red. I feel strongly that that teacher is not doing her students any favor.
I am glad that my love of reading helps me out in a big way.

Same here...thank god that I love to read, otherwise I wouldnt be where I am with my English skills.
 
Speak first - Sign language later on ??? NO ! It is so easy to miss words/misunderstanding. I prefer that a deaf child learn by sign language first. I grew up in an oral school. The education is so bad that in the latter years, I learned more from books at home than at school.
I agree with Vampryox that there are teachers for the deaf who are terrible to students and some students being lazy and ignorant (more like looking for an easy way out).
I understand that the first 5 years of life is formative. Could that be another reason for the deaf kid to be so behind when his/her parents don't know sign language?
I wish I could remember where I saw a post where a teacher for the deaf admitted that she let grammar mistakes slid. That makes me see red. I feel strongly that that teacher is not doing her students any favor.
I am glad that my love of reading helps me out in a big way.

Thank God. Another reaonable voice added to the discussion.:giggle:
 
I have to agree that English has borrowed a lot from other languages, especially the French language. When I studied French, I noticed that a lot of words were similar, and it improved my English as well. It is very interesting how studying a foreign language can actually improve your competency or comprehension in your own native language. That is also the reason why I like learning different foreign sign languages, especially the modern LSF, because I think it has helped me to improve my ASL as well, even though there are occasional episodes of PSE/SEE.

Yeah. I noticed that when I taught myself a smattering of Latin words from my sister's old text books, it really helped my vocabulary in English as many words in English (if not all) are of Latin origin.


I find it interesting that when you studied LSF, it helped you improve your ASL.
 
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