Phonetic approach?

[loml]

There's a major problem in the whole oralism vs. sign debate which is that too often the kids being pulled in both directions do not have a strong first language

Once again cueing would assist a family with a deaf/hoh/hearing child to develop their family language as L1 .

Please (1s6m2s) note (4s/f5s): I do not present CS as an oral tool, but CS can be an aide.

 

[jillio]

I remember teaching myself how to read because I always used images to stand for the printed word. For example, a picture of a house would represent the house.

I notice that I often use signs for words that I learned as a teen and an adult but not always. Take for example the word Ecclesiastical: I image either the sign for church and then the sign for relate or a image of a stained glass window which represents churches in general with the sign relate overlapping it. It's not a perfect transalation but that's the best I could come up with for this word. I have no idea how to pronounce this word!

I do have some understanding of phonics but phonics has always been difficult for me. For example, when I was a mail clerk and it was my job to handle bills of lading (I worked for an intermodal company that moved freight), I remember asking why they used the letters mt on the bills of lading. The hearing told me that's because it sounded like the word empty.

Exactly, deafskeptic. Word recognition relies on top down processing inthe brain....the same type of processing used to recognize all visual inforamtion, including signs. There has been a tremendous amount of research done indicating that when deaf individuals are exposed to unknown Chinese characters they process and remember them in the same way that they remember printed words. Ditto with signs. Printed words, when seen in print form, are not processed letter by letter, but as a complete and recognizable shape formed by that particular arrangement of letters. The connection of phonetic sound and pronunciation of a word is not necessary for literacy. In fact, in word recognition, deaf outscore hearing because of the visual processing involved. Likewise, before the advent of oralism, when deaf schools were not so focused on speech and sound perception, literacy rates of deaf were equal to literacy rates of hearing. Phonics is only useful to someone with hearing, and results in their using their auditory functions to "sound out" an unrecognizable word in order to pronounce it and attach meaning to it. However, research has already shown that the same can be done through visual recognition of the letter arrangement, and meaning is also attached to that. Phonetic knowledge is not necessary for processing sysmbol of letters and attaching an accepted meaning to it. If for example, a child is fluent in sign, and they already understand that the sign for chair is a symbol representing that particular item, and they see the word "chair" in print, and are able to attach the same meaning through thier knowledge of signed language, they connect that the printed word and the sign are both symbols representing the same concept. Phonetic knowledge of the pronunciation of the word is not necessary, as the spoken word is nothing more than an additional symbol representing the same concept.

 

[jillio]

Thanks for inputs. It cleared out some things. I myself learned both by phonics and remembering words, but feel that research outcomes and methology perhaps would be a bit different if it was a deafs world, as much of this research is carried out by hearies. Also feel that the speech part is a bit overdone many places that call themselves Bi-Bi. A bit overdone is something I can live with, the challenge is to notice when it's overdone so much it is delaying or hurting seriously. But at least you have convinced me for the moment, that speech not is hurting and can help when developing literacy. I read through some of the recent "flamewars" threads here, as I haven't been at alldeaf.com for a long time, and found some answers to my questions there, too.

"Literacy—It All Connects", seems interesting, and have ordered it, thanks for bringing up that paper, Jillio!

You are quite welcome!

 

[jillio]

These many cognitive paths, are you refererencing from a deaf ed. perspective or?? Could you direct me to a source for these approaches please. I would like to read them.


thnxs
7t8s2s3s

Start with a cognitive psychology textbook and move on to the research when you have a foundation int he basics of cognitive processing.

 

[jillio]

Once again cueing would assist a family with a deaf/hoh/hearing child to develop their family language as L1 .

Please (1s6m2s) note (4s/f5s): I do not present CS as an oral tool, but CS can be an aide.

Only if the family is relying on oral communciation as the L1 langauge. And then, it tends not to be an L1 langauge for that child, but simply an only language. There is a big difference between an L1 language, and a language being the only language a child has in the ability to use it as fluently as native speakers and it the way it affects cognitive processes.

 

[loml]

literacy rates of deaf were equal to literacy rates of hearing.

got a journal or links for this information?

Phonics is only useful to someone with hearing, and results in their using their auditory functions to "sound out" an unrecognizable word in order to pronounce it and attach meaning to it. However, research has already shown that the same can be done through visual recognition of the letter arrangement, and meaning is also attached to that.

deaf cuers use phonemic "sounding out", internally

 

[loml]

Only if the family is relying on oral communciation as the L1 langauge.

Talking to their baby and cueing simultaneously, okay.

And then, it tends not to be an L1 langauge for that child, but simply an only language.

The deaf cuers I know are fluent in Enlgish and ASL.

There is a big difference between an L1 language, and a language being the only language a child has in the ability to use it as fluently as native speakers and it the way it affects cognitive processes.

Just how does is the cognitive processing is affected and some journals please.

Deaf and hearing people successfully learn ASL later after 6 years of age.

3t1t 5s/d3s1c5t

 

[loml]

These many cognitive paths, are you refererencing from a deaf ed. perspective or?? Could you direct me to a source for these approaches please. I would like to read them.


thnxs
7t8s2s3s

Start with a cognitive psychology textbook and move on to the research when you have a foundation int he basics of cognitive processing.

Is that a no?

7s5t 4c5c?

 

[jillio]

Is that a no?

7s5t 4c5c?

Nope, its a request for you to educate yourself on that of which you attempt to speak. I assumed that you would be able to locate a textbook online, just as you are able to access numerous articles to speak for you rather than actually showing us, by using your own words, that you truly grasp the issues involved with the method that you are so supportive of.

Your final remarks are indicative of the fact that you have very limited knowledge regarding L1 and L2 langauge. Simply because English is an idividuals only language does not make it automatically fall into the L1 category.

 

[jillio]

got a journal or links for this information?



deaf cuers use phonemic "sounding out", internally

Read a little deaf history. And one can not "sound out" internally what one cannot receive stimuli for externally. Sounding out requires that one has internalized the very sound, and is relying on auditory memory a applied to a new situation as a form of interpretation. Simply being given a visual cue to a sound does not permit one to "sound out" anything.

 

[loml]

Sounding out requires that one has internalized the very sound, and is relying on auditory memory a applied to a new situation as a form of interpretation

Deaf people who use Cued Speech do internalize the sound, something I have mentioned on several occassions (unless of course you don't believe them). It has been reported that on the MRI of deaf cueing individuals it appears in the auditory processing.

 

[jillio]

Deaf people who use Cued Speech do internalize the sound, something I have mentioned on several occassions (unless of course you don't believe them). It has been reported that on the MRI of deaf cueing individuals it appears in the auditory processing.

No, they don't. If they haven't HEARD the sound, they CANNOT internalize the sound. And it has been reported on MRI that the processing of ASL appears in the area of the brain that are normally used for auditory processing. Its called natural adaptation. But it is the visual that is being processed becasue the brain has adapted to process langauge from a visual stimulus. It is not the internaliztion of sound that one has never heard.

 

[loml]

Nope, its a request for you to educate yourself on that of which you attempt to speak. I assumed that you would be able to locate a textbook online, just as you are able to access numerous articles to speak for you rather than actually showing us, by using your own words, that you truly grasp the issues involved with the method that you are so supportive of.

Yet again I shall explain to you. *sigh* 3t I post the articles to share information to the people who view this board. It has been my experience that there is a certain level of "censorship" amongst some powerful influences on early intervention, deaf ed. etc. I believe that families need to ask informed questions and make informed choices.

LOL...my own words....I use lots of my own words, simply because I do not choose to your style , does not make my words of any lesser value.

Your final remarks are indicative of the fact that you have very limited knowledge regarding L1 and L2 langauge.

7s5t 4c5c? ---This remark?? LOL

Regardless of what I say to you you choose not to accept it.

Simply because English is an idividuals only language does not make it automatically fall into the L1 category.

I didn't say it did.

1s/d4s 1c5t 5c5t 4m 8c6s 5s/d4s1m3s5t4s1s

 

[loml]

show me the sound

No, they don't. If they haven't HEARD the sound, they CANNOT internalize the sound. .

They feel the sound, see the sound and for some may hear some or all of the sound. I do not disbelieve deaf cuers when they tell me they "hear" the sound.

7c3s 8c 1c

 

[jillio]

They feel the sound, see the sound and for some may hear some or all of the sound. I do not disbelieve deaf cuers when they tell me they "hear" the sound.

7c3s 8c 1c

In which case, they internalize the kinesthetic sensation or the visual component, not the auditory stimulus. Just as a blind person can internalize the kinesthetic component of Braille in order to recognize word form, or a signer can internalize the various handshapes as morphemes to recognize word form. However, it is not internalization of spoken, auditory language.

 

[flip]

What is the best way to organize so students can benfit from all the different paths to learn to read? To ask this question more precise, I will try to make an answer you can disagree or agree on.

I imagine it can be done this way: students are sent to speech training individually 30-60 minutes a week up to 3th or 4th grade, depending on maturity and skills. The reason this not should be done togheter in classrooms is that students don't learn much from each other trying to utter words the right way with right mouthshapes. Also, non-speech kids can feel stupid, while fluent speakers does not get challenges.

Learning/writing practices and lessons can be done in groups, both methods, phonetic and whole language, with a teacher fluent in sign language. It is also possible to give individual lessons to students in groups, matching their literacy level. The teacher have to know how to make correct mouthshapes in teaching the phonetic approach, but listening skills does not matter much. So this teacher can be either deaf, HH or hearing. The most important language skill here would be ASL.

Am I on the right path, or do you have other suggestions? Are there detalis that are not critical in a bilingual enviroment when teaching literacy, compared to others? Are hearing ability important in a teacher teaching reading and writing skills? I was not sure if I should start a new thread on this one, but decided to put it in here, as it's good information in earlier posts in this thread.

 

[shel90]

What is the best way to organize so students can benfit from all the different paths to learn to read? To ask this question more precise, I will try to make an answer you can disagree or agree on.

I imagine it can be done this way: students are sent to speech training individually 30-60 minutes a week up to 3th or 4th grade, depending on maturity and skills. The reason this not should be done togheter in classrooms is that students don't learn much from each other trying to utter words the right way with right mouthshapes. Also, non-speech kids can feel stupid, while fluent speakers does not get challenges.

Learning/writing practices and lessons can be done in groups, both methods, phonetic and whole language, with a teacher fluent in sign language. It is also possible to give individual lessons to students in groups, matching their literacy level. The teacher have to know how to make correct mouthshapes in teaching the phonetic approach, but listening skills does not matter much. So this teacher can be either deaf, HH or hearing. The most important language skill here would be ASL.

Am I on the right path, or do you have other suggestions? Are there detalis that are not critical in a bilingual enviroment when teaching literacy, compared to others? Are hearing ability important in a teacher teaching reading and writing skills? I was not sure if I should start a new thread on this one, but decided to put it in here, as it's good information in earlier posts in this thread.

No, there is not an importance in the hearing abilities of the teachers but lately there are some parents of the CI kids making small demands about that issue.

That idea sounds like a good one. I will ask the curriculm specialist about this approach for those who are struggling with reading and writing. The students who are not seem to do fine without this approach so leave the same approach for them but use this one for the ones who are language delayed? I will ask my work about it.

 

[shel90]

In which case, they internalize the kinesthetic sensation or the visual component, not the auditory stimulus. Just as a blind person can internalize the kinesthetic component of Braille in order to recognize word form, or a signer can internalize the various handshapes as morphemes to recognize word form. However, it is not internalization of spoken, auditory language.

I was trained to internalize the sounds and used the phonetic approach when learning how to read and write. I can "imagine" sounds in my head when I am thinking in English even though I cant hear them perfectly. Wouldnt that be internalization of spoken and auditory language?

 

[flip]

No, there is not an importance in the hearing abilities of the teachers but lately there are some parents of the CI kids making small demands about that issue.

That idea sounds like a good one. I will ask the curriculm specialist about this approach for those who are struggling with reading and writing. The students who are not seem to do fine without this approach so leave the same approach for them but use this one for the ones who are language delayed? I will ask my work about it.

Thanks for reply!
Curious how you divide tasks like speech, and literacy teaching based on ASL with students that are "fine"? Are speech and literacy teaching done seperately or togheter by the same teacher? Do you have english educators that are deaf/HH in the first grades? The bi-bi approach seems to vary wildly from place to place, so I am curious how it is done other places. I am not asking for methods, but focus more on how it can be organized and how tasks are divided among what kind of specializations. Again, hope this not is a too heavy question!

 

[shel90]

Thanks for reply!
Curious how you divide tasks like speech, and literacy teaching based on ASL with students that are "fine"? Are speech and literacy teaching done seperately or togheter by the same teacher? Do you have english educators that are deaf/HH in the first grades? The bi-bi approach seems to vary wildly from place to place, so I am curious how it is done other places. I am not asking for methods, but focus more on how it can be organized and how tasks are divided among what kind of specializations. Again, hope this not is a too heavy question!

We have speech teachers so those kids' whose parents requested speech in their IEPs get pulled out for speech and oral skill development.

Our CI program is still relatively new so we are still in the pilot stages. We use spoken English with those who benefit from their CIs or are HOH for one on one sessions.

Yes, we have deaf/hh teachers in all grades from PreK all the way to HS as well as hearing too.

We use ASL to teach new concepts and do a lot of modeling when it comes to writing. Important that the kids read read read read and discuss different reading strategies.