Other people perspective AGAINST C.I. for the Deaf children

[jillio]

Buffalo,


I have talked to many, many deaf people throughout the years and as you may have forgotten I am also the parent of a deaf person so I do not need to "shadow a deaf cashier" to observe what deaf people experience.


While I am sorry that you have all this pent up anger inside of you that you cannot engage in a discussion calmly and like a rational person, I have neither the time nor the interest to serve as the subject of your nonsensical rantings and ravings. Your anger as directed towards me is misplaced, some of the most inspirational and best people I have had the pleasure to meet are deaf and my own child is living and loving proof of that. I am a parent of a deaf child who chose to give my child the benefits and opportunities of a cochlear implant and you know what: even after the implant she is still deaf. She is also the same wonderful person she was prior to her implant, she just hears a hell of a lot better.

If you want to discuss cochlear implants fine but cochlear implants have nothing to do with the Halocaust and eugenics, unless you have proof of someone who had a cochlear implant and is no longer deaf.

I am sorry that you chose not to engage in a discussion but instead chose to attack me personally but nonetheless I wish you well and hope you get the help and assistance that you so clearly need.
Rick

Actually, Buffalo's post was one of the most reasonable, well thought out, and intelligent posts that I have seen recently She has used her excellent critical thinking skills to connect the behavior evidenced in one piece of history to another, and has analyzed the motivations that result in such behavior. I say, WELL DONE, BUFFALO!

You have not been atacked. You have had irrational processes in your reasoning and limitations in your experience pointed out. Only if you are attempting to overcompensate for that do you feel attacked.

Being the parent of a deaf child gives you an outsider's view of what it is to be deaf. And if you use the experience of only one child on which to base your assessments, then your experience is even more limited and in no way applicable to a population as a whole. If you base your assessment on only those deaf who happen to be oral, again a minority within a minority, you even further limit the accuracy of your assessment in terms of gereralizability to the population as a whole. You quite obviously have consistently rejected any input other than that which subscribes to your own oralist philosophy,and have attempted to invalidate the numerous experiences that have been shared on this board by deaf individuals that happen not to subscribe to your philosophy. You have minimalized the both the experiences and the feelings of these people. And you are doing it again in your reply to Buffalo.

Buffalo is not in need of assistance. Buffalo is well educated, well read, and perfectly capable of seeing situations from a wider, less ethnocentric perspective than you yourself are capable of.

The cochlear implant most definately can be connected to the philosophy of eugenics, and has been by numerous scholars. Perhaps if you took the time to read the worrks of those who are obviously more versed in the subject than you yourself are, you would be able to discuss the topic from an informed perspective. But then, that would require not only taking the time to read and educate yorself, but possession of an open mind and critical thinking skills, as well, so I doubt quite seriously that it will ever happen.

The cochler implant does not render the deaf non-deaf. However, along with the oralist philosophies that are so strongly attached to the concept and the devise, and the refusal of a newly formed group of audists that continue to insist, despite historical and empirical evidence that their views and positions are harmful to the deaf as a population, and are responsible for the sociological diasabling of the deaf to a greater degree than their physical deafness ever has, it can be connected quite explicity to the concept of cultural ethnocide, and is no less objectionable than the practice of eugenics.

 

[jillio]

Buffalo.

All my life, I felt like a burden to my teachers and peers cuz I was always asking them to repeat themselves. I remember all the rolled eyes, the sighs and all the "never minds" or "I will tell u later." It gave me the feeling that they were hoping I would just quietly disappear and not bother them. Eventually, I did become so withdrawn and extremely isolated even though I was surrounded by people.

I know the Holocaust was terrible and I cant compare my experiences to what the Jewish people endured but I can understand what Beinvue is trying to say. Maybe one needs to experience the feelings of being unwanted or a burden to society to really understand what she is trying to say.

And the strength lies in having experienced that painful existence, but rising above it and using it to make changes for those that follow behind. Kudos to you and all the deaf individuals who have done that.

 

[jillio]

I am calm and pointing things out to you and people like you. Jillo is right - you tend to avoid answer someone else's questions/comments. Don't bother the deaf people with your questions unless you have remove those blinders.

Rick48 does not enter into these discussions to learn and uderstand the deaf/Deaf perspective. He enters into them in order to inform the deaf population how wrong their beliefs and values are, and to attempt to convince everyone that his hearing perspective is the one that all deaf people should adopt. Look in any sign dictionary next to the concept audist, and you will see rick48 fingerspelled.

 

[jillio]

Sorry but using the jillio tactics of deflection and turnaround arguments sprinkled with personal attacks is not going to cut it. I asked you a simple question which you still have not answered.

I asked, you chose not to answer but to rant, rave and attack, not going to waste further time on you.

Go ahead, have the last word, you need it more than I do.

Have a nice day.
Rick

A very ineffectual attempt to back out of a situation and still retain some mistaken sense of dignity. Again, you have demonstrated to all that the general opinion of your character is spot on.

 

[jillio]

There you go. I answered your question about who want to get rid of the deaf people. The answer is those intellect people at organizations that support eugenics like Pioneer Fund and that Mankind magazine. It is not just in USA. It is happening in China and maybe in UK if they pass that law with that clause 14 in it. It can influence another country to adopt that kind of law/thinking. Then there is an interesting point about how Holocaust got started with handicapped people which later expanded to disabled Gypsy/Jewish people and again expanded to all Jewish people, gay people, Catholic priests, Jehovah's Witnesses, Polish people, and so on. Still you think I haven't answer your question. You really need to adjust your attitude. Just open your eyes and see the cold hard truth. Believe me, I am calm.

It takes strength of character to look at the unpleasantness and admit that it is there. If one admits that the injustice exists, one is responsible as an ethical and moral human being, to speak out against it and act to change it. I can't see that happening in rick48's case. It is much easier to deny the obvious and keep one's head in the sand.

 

[jillio]

Shel,

However, as that the quote from Bienvenu from the Deaf Mosaic show is from the early 90s and as I have read other quotes from her made at the same time, she is comparing the act of children receiving cochlear implants as a result of their parents' decision with the Nazis' mass murder of millions of people and not how the hearing society treats deaf people who cannot communicate orally.

So, as I stated earlier the choice of that comparision was deliberately chosen and used to create as negative an image of children with cochlear implants and their parents as possible and is not one designed to encourage discussion and mutual understanding but to further polarize and divide people.

My hope is that she, unlike many on this forum, has grown past that position and realizes that being Deaf and having a cochlear implant are not mutually exclusive and that even after receiving a cochlear implant a person is and always will be deaf.

I see your point and it is a valid one, but it is separate and distinct from the comparision of cochlear implants to the Halocaust.
Rick

Five hands with fingertips pointing outward from the forehead, moving in front of the forehead while fingertips are moved closer together. But since you don't know ASL, you probably won't recongnize the English description of this sign. Let's leave it to say that you need desperately to aprroach things from a broader perspective. You are limiting your ability to comprehend through your inability to think in less concrete terms.

 

[jillio]

Shel,

So maybe now, although you are not a parent of a child with a ci, you can appreciate how we feel when we are compared to Hitler, when, as has happened on this forum, we are called child abusers and our children must have been abducted by aliens who implanted them.

Perhaps instead of always telling us to walk a mile in their shoes one might realize that we have walked in our childrens' shoes everyday of their lives and perhaps it is they who should walk a mile in ours before putting us down.

Food for thought.

Rick

BTW for the record, if you do not know already, I do not agree that every child should have the ci but that it should be an option for every child. That is what separates me from people like that woman you encountered and Bienvenu who you had as a teacher. I do not adopt a "one size fits all" philosophy towards raising any child even a deaf one.

You have not walked in your child's shoes. Had you done that, you would have inevitably gained some degree of empathy for the difficulties perpetrated upon the deaf population as a whole, as well as some degree of understanding for the basis of their feelings and perceptions. None of that is evident in your posts.

The sad part is, not only have you not walked in yor child's shoes, int he case of afa too many, you have not even attempted to walk beside your child, but instead have forced them to follow behind you in subservience to your almighty spoken language.

 

[jillio]

rick FYI MOST folks on this forum are VERY accepting of CI and being Deaf.
I gotta admit, yes....it is the attitude, but the thing is, even without CI oralism was popular and big.

Agreed. But CI has served as false reinforcement for those oralist philosophies and audist attitudes.

 

[jillio]

That is how I also interpreted Beinveu's post.

That is because, you too, are reasonable, and do not consider her opinion a personal attack on your choice. Unfortunately, that does not appear to be the case with some hearing supporters of CI.

 

[jillio]

Again, here we go. You are saying that I am putting u and the other parents down. Again, where have I said that? If other people do that, do not hold me responsible for them. That is when things get ugly so can we just not do those kinds of accusations pls.

Again, I have nothing against CIs...it is the view that Deaf culture and ASL is not needed that I am talking about.

In the case of language development, I believe in using real languages instead of systems and ASL is fully accessible to deaf children. As I have said, I believe in using both languages for all deaf/hoh children. It doesnt matter if they have a CI or not. As I have stated millions of times, the decision to get the CI for the child is the family's business not my business. I wont go around calling them child abusers, neglectful and so on. I just worry about my own two kids and if I had a deaf kid, I will focus on my own beliefs but I wont force them on other families (relating to the CI). However, because I am a teacher, I am really tired of seeing numerous of deaf children (with CI or not) being referred to our school with language delays from the oral programs. That is why I dont believe using whatever works for the child in the educational setting. I dont liek the idea of playing Russian roulette with deaf children's language development. That is what I strongly believe in. That and exposing them to the Deaf community.

 

[Doug5]

I bet in the future everyone is gonna get cochlear implants. Itd be like the borgs

 

[vallee]

You have not walked in your child's shoes. Had you done that, you would have inevitably gained some degree of empathy for the difficulties perpetrated upon the deaf population as a whole, as well as some degree of understanding for the basis of their feelings and perceptions. None of that is evident in your posts.

The sad part is, not only have you not walked in yor child's shoes, int he case of afa too many, you have not even attempted to walk beside your child, but instead have forced them to follow behind you in subservience to your almighty spoken language.

I do believe parents walk beside their child. We can't judge that Rick has not gained empathy for his daughter. We don't know the relationship, experiences, or struggles they have gone through. The bond between a child and parent are very strong. It is cruel to place judgement on Rick by saying he does not know his child.

Can we make the same generalization on all hearing parents of deaf children? Can we make that generalization of deaf and hearing people not walking in the shoes of CI people? Can we make that generalization about deaf parent of hearing children? NO, WE CAN NOT!

It is easy to judge others, by just reading the written posting. We know nothing about what others go through in their daily life. Hopefully no one has to walk a mile in someone else shoes, hopefully we can respect others instead of judge.

 

[vallee]

I bet in the future everyone is gonna get cochlear implants. Itd be like the borgs

CIs are not for everyone. I also don't see myself like the borgs, but I do love Star Tek.

 

[jillio]

I do believe parents walk beside their child. We can't judge that Rick has not gained empathy for his daughter. We don't know the relationship, experiences, or struggles they have gone through. The bond between a child and parent are very strong. It is cruel to place judgement on Rick by saying he does not know his child.

Can we make the same generalization on all hearing parents of deaf children? Can we make that generalization of deaf and hearing people not walking in the shoes of CI people? Can we make that generalization about deaf parent of hearing children? NO, WE CAN NOT!

It is easy to judge others, by just reading the written posting. We know nothing about what others go through in their daily life. Hopefully no one has to walk a mile in someone else shoes, hopefully we can respect others instead of judge.

Some parents, indeed, walk beside their child. Unfortunately,t here are many more who don't. No one is judging rick48's relationship with his daughter. However, he has, on numerous occasions, passed judgement on parents who have chosen not to implant. I am not making a gerneralization. There are always exceptions to any situation. However, after the length of time and the level of involvement that I have had in the deaf community, as well as observations of hearing parents of deaf children, and having listened to the stories of deaf adults and adolescents regarding their personal life experiences, I can say that, whether you choose to believe it or not, there asre far too many that fall into the categorty I have described.

Rick48 has shared much of his experience with his daughter, and his attitudes toward deaf individuals who disagree with his oral only philosophy. His attitude comes through loud and clear; not only to me but to many, many others on this board.

Just because a parent and child have bonded is not an indication that the child's needs are always being met in the manner that would provide the most benefit for the child. I know of not one deaf poster on this board that says they have turned away from their parents, or that they blame their parents, or that they resent their parents for raising them in an oral only environment. However, I do know many that will say that, although they understand that their parents did what they thought was best, that the parents were only folowing the advise of the so-called professionals, they still realize that, as children, their needs were not met. You, too, have the opportunity to read these stories...they are all over this board in every thread. The way the parent perceives the situation is more often than not, very different from the way the child perceives the situation.

And because the stories are so similar in content and context, and because they are so numerous, and because they spin a common thread throughout the deaf community, those are the stories that we should be listening to and learning from.

You, yourself, have minimized the intensity of experience by taking offense at Beinvenu's comaprison to the Holocaust, rather than understanding that the intensity of emotion, and the feelings of complete oppression are one and the same. In effect, you have minimized the oppression and marginalization that the deaf community as a whole has experienced....oppression and marginalization that pre-dates the Holocaust, is part of Holocaust history, and continues to this day. The deaf community has a right to their anger, and a strong foundation on which it is built. It is the attitude of the hearing community that has provided that foundation.

 

[vallee]

You, yourself, have minimized the intensity of experience by taking offense at Beinvenu's comaprison to the Holocaust, rather than understanding that the intensity of emotion, and the feelings of complete oppression are one and the same. In effect, you have minimized the oppression and marginalization that the deaf community as a whole has experienced....oppression and marginalization that pre-dates the Holocaust, is part of Holocaust history, and continues to this day. The deaf community has a right to their anger, and a strong foundation on which it is built. It is the attitude of the hearing community that has provided that foundation.

Yes, I agree I do take offense at her comments. Eugenics and genocide are the words I would not use Holocaust. I do not feel that cochlear implants belong in the same catergory of genocide. If you use the same generalization than it means that I as a cochlear implant person is being destoryed from my national group. That I was implanted so it deliteralely inflicts on my conditions of the cultures' life.

gen·o·cide /ˈdʒɛnəˌsaɪd/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[jen-uh-sahyd] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.

hol·o·caust /ˈhɒləˌkɔst, ˈhoʊlə-/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[hol-uh-kawst, hoh-luh-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. a great or complete devastation or destruction, esp. by fire.
2. a sacrifice completely consumed by fire; burnt offering.
3. (usually initial capital letter) the systematic mass slaughter of European Jews in Nazi concentration camps during World War II (usually prec. by the).


You made a comment to me once and I will return it to you, capitalization of the word Deaf Community, please.

I read a wonderful quote the other day, "We sleep in silence, too." Above all I am deaf and will always be deaf. I also proud to have CIs, I proud to be Deaf, and I am proud of my parents and the choices they made for me.

I will not turn this into an agruement. I will respect your opinion, I ask that you respect mine.

 

[jillio]

Yes, I agree I do take offense at her comments. Eugenics and genocide are the words I would not use Holocaust. I do not feel that cochlear implants belong in the same catergory of genocide. If you use the same generalization than it means that I as a cochlear implant person is being destoryed from my national group. That I was implanted so it deliteralely inflicts on my conditions of the cultures' life.

gen·o·cide /ˈdʒɛnəˌsaɪd/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[jen-uh-sahyd] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.

hol·o·caust /ˈhɒləˌkɔst, ˈhoʊlə-/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[hol-uh-kawst, hoh-luh-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. a great or complete devastation or destruction, esp. by fire.
2. a sacrifice completely consumed by fire; burnt offering.
3. (usually initial capital letter) the systematic mass slaughter of European Jews in Nazi concentration camps during World War II (usually prec. by the).


You made a comment to me once and I will return it to you, capitalization of the word Deaf Community, please.

I read a wonderful quote the other day, "We sleep in silence, too." Above all I am deaf and will always be deaf. I also proud to have CIs, I proud to be Deaf, and I am proud of my parents and the choices they made for me.

I will not turn this into an agruement. I will respect your opinion, I ask that you respect mine.

The Holocaust is an example of genocide. To compare two types of genocide is completely approporiate. Manifest Destiny was also a form of genocide. Genocide is genocide, period. The Holocaust is but one example. And, when one says "Deaf Culture" one capitalizes. When one says Deaf/deaf community, one does not.

No where have I disrespected your opinion. I simply offered, as a Jew by descent, with many practicing family members and numerous Jewish friends, that your reaction to Beinvenu's comparison is not necessarily the reaction that all Jewish persons would have. And in my opinion, her comparison, both on a scholarly level and an affective level, was quite apt.

BTW, I am well aware of the definition of genocide and also the definition of ethnocide, not to mention the difference in contextual definition for holocaust ad Holocaust.

 

[Lantana]

Hmm, the way things are going in this country, I wouldn't be surprised if deaf children were FORCED to have a CI. It would be just like the goverment to figure that CI's are cheaper than maintaining residential deaf schools.

I am neither pro nor con. The only reason "I" don't have a CI is the long distance I would have to travel for mapping, etc. 'Lots of heavy traffic, bad weather, snow in the mountains, etc.

I will stick with what God gave me.

 

[Buffalo]

Yes, I agree I do take offense at her comments. Eugenics and genocide are the words I would not use Holocaust. I do not feel that cochlear implants belong in the same catergory of genocide. If you use the same generalization than it means that I as a cochlear implant person is being destoryed from my national group. That I was implanted so it deliteralely inflicts on my conditions of the cultures' life.

Now, Vallee, you puzzled me. I looked up those words at thefreedictionary.com and here are those definitions.

eu·gen·ics (y-jnks)
n. (used with a sing. verb)
The study of hereditary improvement of the human race by controlled selective breeding.


gen·o·cide (jn-sd)
n.
The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group.


hol·o·caust (hl-kôst, hl-)
n.
1. Great destruction resulting in the extensive loss of life, especially by fire.
2.
a. Holocaust The genocide of European Jews and others by the Nazis during World War II: "Israel emerged from the Holocaust and is defined in relation to that catastrophe" Emanuel Litvinoff.
b. A massive slaughter: "an important document in the so-far sketchy annals of the Cambodian holocaust" Rod Nordland.
3. A sacrificial offering that is consumed entirely by flames.

It is quite clear that Holocaust is genocide. I don't understand why you choose to ignore the genocide implication of CIs. It is a first small step in the direction of genocide of the deaf people. I learned yesterday that the Nazis started with the handicapped people first before including the Jewish people and Gypsies. All a doctor had to try something improper and if no one object, he would push some more. It can easily turn into genocide. We all must be on guard against this. Shel90 was telling us about a lady who thinks there ought to be a law for all deaf people to be implanted - exactly the attitude we all must avoid at all costs. We must object against anything that smells of potential genocide and keep at that. I saw a title of a book on Amazon.com that impacted me and it is called "Enforcing Normalacy" (can't afford that book as it is over 80 bucks and yes, it is about deaf people.)

I find it odd that people who interfere with our education, our jobs, and our reproduction rights, consider us to be a burden to them when in reality, they are a burden to us because they already made things harder for us. If one thinks one has the right to get rid of certain people because of the burden, then do we have the right to get rid of him? If we do attempt to get rid of him, he will cry foul in spite of what he has done to us. We must not let any elitists gain any power over us.

 

[Buffalo]

Hmm, the way things are going in this country, I wouldn't be surprised if deaf children were FORCED to have a CI. It would be just like the goverment to figure that CI's are cheaper than maintaining residential deaf schools.

I am neither pro nor con. The only reason "I" don't have a CI is the long distance I would have to travel for mapping, etc. 'Lots of heavy traffic, bad weather, snow in the mountains, etc.

I will stick with what God gave me.

Another honest deaf person! Thanks! I agree with you and we have to do something about this.

 

[Buffalo]

I bet in the future everyone is gonna get cochlear implants. Itd be like the borgs

Everyone? meaning hearing people as well???

You won't find it is funny when a person is forced to have a CI. You won't like living under conditions where certain people tell deaf people (and any other people that is perceived to be lowly) what to do and where to live and what kind of job they should go into and how much they should be earning and whether they should have children or not. The education will be substandard. So don't make a joke about "everyone is gonna get cochlear implants. It'd be like the borgs."

I looked up your total of 22 posts. You are a man in 30's with low income and looking for a cheap hearing aid. You were mainstreamed and don't know sign language. Suppose you and everybody know sign language, you won't be looking for a hearing aid but looking for a job instead or maybe already holding down a job.