Original Sin

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RITCount said:
... people who never have found out about God wouldn't go to hell. They could make amends to make peace with God.
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What does "make amends" mean? Do you mean before or after death?


Keep in mind, this is my own perspective based on what I know and that is what Christianity in my point of view says of this.
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Oh, yes, I'll definitely keep that in mind. :D
 
Yiffzer said:
...If there is such a thing as original sin, then why aren't there such a thing as original virtue?
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The Bible doesn't use the term "original virtue" but I believe the concept would be similar to the new nature that Christians receive upon their new birth in Christ. The new nature is of Christ, and the old nature is of Adam. The new nature is spiritual and tends toward holiness. The old nature is carnal and tends toward the flesh. The source of the new nature is the Holy Spirit's presence, acquired upon the new birth, and the source of the old nature is Adam's original sin, acquired upon physical birth.

Just a thought.
 
Defee said:
You are exactly right, it was not in the Bible..
Adam and Eve were pure and sinless until
they disobeyed God one day. That means they
never had sex or commited any sins, period.
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They were sinless until they disobeyed God and ate the fruit of the forbidden tree.

They were a married couple and most likely did have sexual relations before they ate of the fruit. Sex between married people is not a sin.

I just want to make that clear. Sexual relations between Adam and Eve was NOT sin. God wanted and expected them to have a sexual relationship. How else did He expect them to reproduce? God designed man and woman to enjoy each other. That's not sin in itself.
 
RITCount said:
Shouldn't you be calling me by my present name?
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I agree. It gets confusing for the rest of us. If he says read Jordan's post, and we don't see any posts by a "Jordan" we're lost.

For the sake of easy reading and quick reference, y'all please stick to the names used by the posters.

:ty:
 
Yiffzer said:
... What are there left to do when you are cursed with sin that you can not escape?
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You go to the One who provides that escape.

John 6
37 ... him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
 
Hey Reba, you know it's very similar as of Noah's ark, when Noah warned people, but those people are invited to come into the ark, inspite of their wickedness, but people doubt Noah and they suffered loss, it's so identical picture of Jesus, Jesus is our Ark, like you quote, anyone wants to come to Him, He will not turn back on me and everyone else. It's for all.
 
Reba said:
Matthew 19
4 And he [Jesus] answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he [God] which made them [Adam and Eve] at the beginning made them male and female, 5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? 6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.


Jesus said it was God the Creator who established marriage.
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But according to the Bible, Adam and Eve predates the bible.
 
Yiffzer said:
The first link says:

The Apple

Well, fruit of some sort, but we'll call it an apple for now, as that is the traditional image.

It does not necessarily mean it is an apple. It is only a traditional image, much like Jesus' own long hair/beard hippie type of look.

The second link has no scripture basis but only goes by traditional conceptions of the "fruit".

The third link has no scripture basis but only goes by traditional conceptions of the "fruit".
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Yeah, but the apple became so common in several biblical stories, it is easy to make people believe it is an apple.

The links just argues the semantics of the story and that it is widely believed that it was an apple.
 
Yiffzer said:
I did not want Atheists to post here because I am not interested in some crazed debate on God again. I only want to understand and learn the Christian point of view and only the Christian point of view. I also appreciate people who make clear and concise posts as it makes it easier for all of us to understand and critique.

I put up an expectation that if a Christian were to post, they should be absolutely knowledgeable. By saying that, I am not judging them. Only Christians who read this will be judging themselves of whether they are fully capable of answering the questions and challenges around the topic of original sin.

And SyrOrange, you have demonstrated little understanding of original sin. You have stated "judgment" as an original sin which is wrong because I am discussing the whole concept of original sin itself and not what makes up a sin. I hope you understand this! Have a great day.
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After I proved that I do understand, why come back and answer this?
 
Reba said:
I agree. It gets confusing for the rest of us. If he says read Jordan's post, and we don't see any posts by a "Jordan" we're lost.

For the sake of easy reading and quick reference, y'all please stick to the names used by the posters.

:ty:
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Yiffzer, you should heed Reba's advice.

(Mods: Sorry to reply so much, but I like to answer posts one by one.)
 
Yiffzer said:
I did not want Atheists to post here because I am not interested in some crazed debate on God again. I only want to understand and learn the Christian point of view and only the Christian point of view. I also appreciate people who make clear and concise posts as it makes it easier for all of us to understand and critique.
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MOD NOTE:

I have already warned of telling specific groups not to post in any thread - one more time, you will be given an infraction.

As for atheists, they do have a right to post in Christianty threads - in fact, I do know of some that are very knowledgeable about the Bible, Christianity, religion- and they offer a very different point of view. You would find it interesting, reading what they have to offer.

Again, I strongly state that all are allowed to post in any thread they please, as long as they are aware of this statement posted in the Forum Rules:
"Even though we support freedom of speech, show some respect, use common sense, and keep an open mind when participating in discussions."
 
I agree that Adam and Eve were considered married, although, they didn't have much of a ceremony.
Genesis 3:8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden.... (NIV)
NASB, KJV, and other translations have it translated Wife. Although the sentance structure is different.

The original Sin - There are a couple of things that happened when Adam and Eve ate the fruit.
1st - Eve embelished, and obviously had a feeling that God was being unfair, her statement was:
"But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die."
Genesis 3:3 KJV
Eve added the touch it part. Why? Only she knows. But God never said that. I'm sure Adam and Eve could have played catch with the fruit, built a fort with the fruit... whatever... just not eat it.

2nd - Eve believed the Serpent, and didn't believe God.
Pretend you tell a friend not to go into a room.
Someone else tells your friend to go into the room.
If your friend goes into the room, they have chosen not to believe you. They have also basically called you a liar. Eve and Adam must have believed that God was a liar, or they wouldn't have eaten the fruit.

Side note - Don't think Adam was innocent, Adam had seen the fruit before. It's not like Eve walked up, showed him a fruit he didn't recognise, and he ate it without question. He probably knew exactly what he was eating.

3rd - Adam and Eve gained somekind of knowledge. Knowledge of Good and Evil. What does that mean? I don't know, I could guess, but all I know is that it couldn't be given back. It couldn't be taken away. This is the reason that Adam and Eve had to be removed from the Garden.

Genesis 3
22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken.

Whatever Adam and Eve gained that day, seperated the human race from God. Is it this that is passed on?

God could not allow Adam and Eve to live forever. Why?

If God had allowed Adam and Eve to live forever, they would have been forever seperated from God. Death is the price of Sin. Through the Death of Jesus we can be reunited with God.
 
DreamSlayer said:
I agree that Adam and Eve were considered married, although, they didn't have much of a ceremony.
Genesis 3:8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden.... (NIV)
NASB, KJV, and other translations have it translated Wife. Although the sentance structure is different.

The original Sin - There are a couple of things that happened when Adam and Eve ate the fruit.
1st - Eve embelished, and obviously had a feeling that God was being unfair, her statement was:
"But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die."
Genesis 3:3 KJV
Eve added the touch it part. Why? Only she knows. But God never said that. I'm sure Adam and Eve could have played catch with the fruit, built a fort with the fruit... whatever... just not eat it.

2nd - Eve believed the Serpent, and didn't believe God.
Pretend you tell a friend not to go into a room.
Someone else tells your friend to go into the room.
If your friend goes into the room, they have chosen not to believe you. They have also basically called you a liar. Eve and Adam must have believed that God was a liar, or they wouldn't have eaten the fruit.

Side note - Don't think Adam was innocent, Adam had seen the fruit before. It's not like Eve walked up, showed him a fruit he didn't recognise, and he ate it without question. He probably knew exactly what he was eating.

3rd - Adam and Eve gained somekind of knowledge. Knowledge of Good and Evil. What does that mean? I don't know, I could guess, but all I know is that it couldn't be given back. It couldn't be taken away. This is the reason that Adam and Eve had to be removed from the Garden.

Genesis 3
22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken.

Whatever Adam and Eve gained that day, seperated the human race from God. God could not allow Adam and Eve to live forever. Why?

If God had allowed Adam and Eve to live forever, they would have been forever seperated from God. Death is the price of Sin. Through the Death of Jesus we can be reunited with Jesus.
Click to expand...
:gpost:
 
DreamSlayer said:
I agree that Adam and Eve were considered married, although, they didn't have much of a ceremony.
Genesis 3:8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden.... (NIV)
NASB, KJV, and other translations have it translated Wife. Although the sentance structure is different.

The original Sin - There are a couple of things that happened when Adam and Eve ate the fruit.
1st - Eve embelished, and obviously had a feeling that God was being unfair, her statement was:
"But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die."
Genesis 3:3 KJV
Eve added the touch it part. Why? Only she knows. But God never said that. I'm sure Adam and Eve could have played catch with the fruit, built a fort with the fruit... whatever... just not eat it.

2nd - Eve believed the Serpent, and didn't believe God.
Pretend you tell a friend not to go into a room.
Someone else tells your friend to go into the room.
If your friend goes into the room, they have chosen not to believe you. They have also basically called you a liar. Eve and Adam must have believed that God was a liar, or they wouldn't have eaten the fruit.

Side note - Don't think Adam was innocent, Adam had seen the fruit before. It's not like Eve walked up, showed him a fruit he didn't recognise, and he ate it without question. He probably knew exactly what he was eating.

3rd - Adam and Eve gained somekind of knowledge. Knowledge of Good and Evil. What does that mean? I don't know, I could guess, but all I know is that it couldn't be given back. It couldn't be taken away. This is the reason that Adam and Eve had to be removed from the Garden.

Genesis 3
22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken.

Whatever Adam and Eve gained that day, seperated the human race from God. Is it this that is passed on?

God could not allow Adam and Eve to live forever. Why?

If God had allowed Adam and Eve to live forever, they would have been forever seperated from God. Death is the price of Sin. Through the Death of Jesus we can be reunited with God.
Click to expand...

Beautiful way to share that. Perfect example. :ty:
 
Cheri said:
Romans Chapter 5 5:12. Wherefore as by one man sin entered into this world and by sin death: and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned.
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Did Jesus say these exact words? Who wrote the book of Romans? I will repeat:

I have asked earlier to show me verses where Jesus had said anything about original sin.

the sin that Adam committed, this first sin, The sin of Adam has injured the human race, and we all get death, but Jesus saved us on the cross. ;)
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I refer you to a problem with that approach:

The first problem is that Judaism never had this concept until Christianity came forth. Judaism simply believes in prayer, repentance and perhaps charity. Christianity now teaches that all of mankind are literally cursed with sin unless we believe in the Son of God, Jesus. It leaves a very high number of people in the world without any knowledge of the Son of God and they are all already cursed.
 
Reba said:
The Bible doesn't use the term "original virtue" but I believe the concept would be similar to the new nature that Christians receive upon their new birth in Christ. The new nature is of Christ, and the old nature is of Adam. The new nature is spiritual and tends toward holiness. The old nature is carnal and tends toward the flesh. The source of the new nature is the Holy Spirit's presence, acquired upon the new birth, and the source of the old nature is Adam's original sin, acquired upon physical birth.

Just a thought.
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Interesting and valid thought.

However, original sin insists that human nature is vile and disgusting that it would never do any good without a deity. We've seen that human beings are capable of both, with and without a deity.This will remain a problem unless the definition of original sin is changed. Cheri altered the definition of original sin just slightly, adding death as the price of sin:

"The sin that Adam committed, this first sin, the sin of Adam has injured the human race, and we all get death, but Jesus saved us on the cross."

Even still, this definition poses a problem I have already pointed out:

The first problem is that Judaism never had this concept until Christianity came forth. Judaism simply believes in prayer, repentance and perhaps charity. Christianity now teaches that all of mankind are literally cursed with sin unless we believe in the Son of God, Jesus. It leaves a very high number of people in the world without any knowledge of the Son of God and they are all already cursed.

In the pre-Christian era, Jesus was never around. In our modern time, there are many that had never heard of Jesus. In effect, it leaves those people unsaved due to original sin.
 
The jews for pardoned for their sins is thru sacrifice till when Jesus left Heaven to become human like us as a final sacrifice after Jesus said, it is finished.
 
Reba said:
They were sinless until they disobeyed God and ate the fruit of the forbidden tree.

They were a married couple and most likely did have sexual relations before they ate of the fruit. Sex between married people is not a sin.

I just want to make that clear. Sexual relations between Adam and Eve was NOT sin. God wanted and expected them to have a sexual relationship. How else did He expect them to reproduce? God designed man and woman to enjoy each other. That's not sin in itself.
Click to expand...

They were "married"? by whom? it didnt say that in the Bible. I know
that sex between married people is not a sin, duh.
I thought Adam and Eve didnt have sex AFTER they disobeyed God,
that is my understanding. I thought they were virgins until after the
fact. Now im confused..I need to do some more research.
 
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