Oral Deaf Education Schools of today

deafskeptic said:
Yeah I agree some competition is needed for a sense of accomplishment . However, it's unrealistic and unhealthy to stake your entire future on a single test or to think your entire future rest on a single test. That's putting way too much pressure on yourself. Parents are losing it if they decide that it's already too late for their fifth grader to enter college based on current difficulties.

I do have a fairly strong competitive streak and I've been guilty of staking my entire future on a test in the past. Being competitive needs to be put in balance sometimes.
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I agree things have gotten out of whack in educational circles in more ways than one. Balance is a tough thing in a world where it seems nobody sure what is at the end of the treadmil (stupid thing keeps getting faster and faster).

As a parent, my biggest concern is making sure my two kids get a good education while allowing them to be kids at the same time. Not easy at all.
 
jillio said:
From my experience, as late as 1988 in my son's deaf/hh preschool class.
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As late as 1988, children with disabilities like mine were (in my school district, and probably most other areas of the country) sent to "special" schools, or put in "special" programs, and kept away from the "normal" children. I started school 4 years later and was mainstreamed all the way through. I only had three teachers in my entire K-12 career who actively resented my presence in their classroom. (I faced prejudice in other ways, but they tended to be less severe.)

Granted, my defining disability was not deafness, but I think the point is clear: a lot has changed in the way schools treat students with disabilities (or who are perceived as such) since the late 90s. The "shameful wall of exclusion" has not tumbled all the way down, as Bush the Elder would have put it, but great strides have been made.
 
ismi,
I actually think that most kids with "classic" disabilites should start off in the specialized schools/programs. They shouldn't be banned from "regular" schools/ classes, but at the same time they really do need the intervention that only a school for the deaf/blind/fill in the blank here can provide. Most public schools really can't provide that type of intervention. I really think most kids with classic disablities need to have the foundation of specialized skills in order to suceed. I strongly disagree with the kneejerk placement of all disabled kids in the mainstream.
Like, one major thing about mainstreaming is that it seems like a lot of sped kids are the "LD" type who are just very apathetic towards learning. Since kids with classic disabilites tend to be the minority we tend to get lumped in with the dumbasses, and so fall through the cracks. Also, the accomoncations tend to be VERY generic......Like public schools think that if one dhh kid has suceeded with minimal accomondations, (eg prefertential seating, FM device and going boo be bah in speech therapy)that's enough for ALL dhh kids!
We are not trying to change anything about our children, we are simply giving them what we feel they need to be best prepared for success throughout their lives.
AS far as the old school oppression, if that were the case, wouldnt we have forced our kids to some residential school where we could forget about them?
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Then how come a lot of parents are really resistant to suggesations that maybe just maybe other tools would also help their kids? Yes, there are some parents who send their kids to oral schools or programs, with an "oh they will pick up another good tool." and we'll let them Sign at home, or we'll learn Sign with them"
But it does seem like a lot of the parents think that an oral education is sufficent, for survival in the world and aren't exactly open to the idear of Sign or other methods b/c of the stigma of Sign and alternative methods being possibly benifical for their kids. They really think that oral speech is gonna solve ALL the problems, and that no additional tools might be needed.
That's what I mean by a parent who simply wants a designer kid. They just want a kid who superfically appears "normal" and doesn't have the "crutch" of "special" things like Sign, or other "obvious" disabilty signifiers. That's what I mean when I say that parents are trying to make their kids into what THEY want.
 
deafdyke said:
ismi,
I actually think that most kids with "classic" disabilites should start off in the specialized schools/programs. They shouldn't be banned from "regular" schools/ classes, but at the same time they really do need the intervention that only a school for the deaf/blind/fill in the blank here can provide.
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I think there are some disabilities where a specialized program makes sense - deafness and blindness would fall into this category for me - but are you going to suggest that a kid with spina bifida or purely-physical CP or paraplegia or whatnot be placed into a special program?

Most public schools really can't provide that type of intervention. I really think most kids with classic disablities need to have the foundation of specialized skills in order to suceed. I strongly disagree with the kneejerk placement of all disabled kids in the mainstream.
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The mainstream doesn't work for everyone, true, but it has historically not been an option for those of use who would do very well mainstreamed. And as far as specialized skills ... I think after school and pullout programs have a lot going for them, for students who don't need a full day of intervention. Certainly I fell into this category for parts of elementary school.

Like, one major thing about mainstreaming is that it seems like a lot of sped kids are the "LD" type who are just very apathetic towards learning. Since kids with classic disabilites tend to be the minority we tend to get lumped in with the dumbasses, and so fall through the cracks.
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Careful - a lot of quite brilliant people have a lot of trouble in school because of learning disabilities. It doesn't make them apathetic, nor does it make them dumb asses. There are those who are apathetic, and there are those who are mentally retarded to some degree or another - but I don't necessarily think they're in the majority. I do agree, however, that special ed often acts as a dumping ground for students that the school would rather not deal with.

Also, the accomoncations tend to be VERY generic......Like public schools think that if one dhh kid has suceeded with minimal accomondations, (eg prefertential seating, FM device and going boo be bah in speech therapy)that's enough for ALL dhh kids!
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This is true, to a degree. But more and more, schools are starting to recognize that students need an Individualized Education Plan, and I think most places recognize that. My schools - elementary, middle, and high - certainly didn't know what accommodations I needed; but they were willing to work with my parents (and later me) to figure out what was necessary. In fact, one of the goals on my IEP was that I would work to develop self-advocacy skills (we also used this as a way of justifying accommodations that came up during the year: "see, it's in his IEP as 'self-advocacy'"). Accommodations can be generic - but they don't have to be.

The rest of your post is old ground; I don't think either of us will budge on that topic, so perhaps it's best to leave it alone.
 
Careful - a lot of quite brilliant people have a lot of trouble in school because of learning disabilities. It doesn't make them apathetic, nor does it make them dumb asses. There are those who are apathetic, and there are those who are mentally retarded to some degree or another - but I don't necessarily think they're in the majority. I do agree, however, that special ed often acts as a dumping ground for students that the school would rather not deal with.
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I know that.....I was one of them. Notice that I put LD in quotation marks.
I know there are a lot of brillant LD kids out there.
I am not lumping them all into dumbasses. Just seems like a lot of schools use sped as a dumping ground for those apathetic dumbasses who have no where else to go!
but are you going to suggest that a kid with spina bifida or purely-physical CP or paraplegia or whatnot be placed into a special program?
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Well it depends. I just think that early on (preschool/kindergarten) that it would be best for kids with purely physical issues to have a split placement sort of deal. Like for most of the week they could go to a mainstream school, but have kind of an enrichment program style attendance at United Cerebal Palsy/ Easter Seals/local Chapter 766 Early Intervention Preschool.
That could get them REALLY good services like OT or PT. Hey, in my state there is still a school for kids with purely physcial disablities, the Mass Hospital School. (and no, it's not purely multihandicapped kids)


but it has historically not been an option for those of use who would do very well mainstreamed. And as far as specialized skills ... I think after school and pullout programs have a lot going for them, for students who don't need a full day of intervention. Certainly I fell into this category for parts of elementary school.
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Not arguing for not mainstreaming. Just more...... not total and complete mainstreaming. Even those kids who do decently mainstreamed may often need specialized services in order to suceed. Pullout programs are just really.....I mean what benifit is it for kids to be pulled out and miss something that could be valueable to them? I remember when I was in elementary I wished I could go to a school that had PT/OT/ST built into the schdule. It was always a nitemare trying to figure that out.

But more and more, schools are starting to recognize that students need an Individualized Education Plan, and I think most places recognize that.
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Some schools yeah........but the thing is.....most schools cater to the Average Student. Hell......even GIFTED kids are really underserved just like classicly disabled kids!
 
deafdyke said:
That's what I mean by a parent who simply wants a designer kid. They just want a kid who superfically appears "normal" and doesn't have the "crutch" of "special" things like Sign, or other "obvious" disabilty signifiers. That's what I mean when I say that parents are trying to make their kids into what THEY want.
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I have to scratch my head and ask "Where do you come up with this stuff?"

How many parents of deaf kids do you actually know and how many have you ever talked to regarding the time, effort, research and soul searching that went into the decisions they made about how the path they chose for their deaf child.

I am not just talking about cochlear implants or oral methods either.

I have met many such parents over the years and regardless of whatever path, method, device, etc. they chose the overwhelming majority did so after considering different options and not to "make their kids into what they want" but rather to give them the opportunity to be able to reach their full potential.

Again, there are parents who fit your description but in my experiences they have been so few and far between, so where are these parents and how come you have met so many of them?
 
Rick, Perhaps we just see things differently.Yes, things have gotten more liberal, and some parents have gotten very openminded. Like there are parents who are "woohoo.....my child can learn sign and be a part of a very cool fun culture"
But a lot of them still seem like they are still severely grieving b/c of their child's disabilty.......like they think that if they focus on speech and speech alone hard enough their child will become "not really deaf, and won't need things like sign or other 'obvious' disabilty things.
I see parents like this on my listservs, on my discussion boards and all over the place. Why just recently a parent of a hoh kid wrote in to express her grief over her son's being hoh.

overwhelming majority did so after considering different options and not to "make their kids into what they want" but rather to give them the opportunity to be able to reach their full potential.
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I guess its just that the extremists tend to really stick with you. Note I have said things are getting much, much much better! there are still plenty of parents who are struggling with emotional issues. That's all.....my parents went through that but i'm only hoh !
 
deafdyke said:
But a lot of them still seem like they are still severely grieving b/c of their child's disabilty.......like they think that if they focus on speech and speech alone hard enough their child will become "not really deaf, and won't need things like sign or other 'obvious' disabilty things.
I see parents like this on my listservs, on my discussion boards and all over the place. Why just recently a parent of a hoh kid wrote in to express her grief over her son's being hoh.
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This happens with pretty much every disability - and happens even for adults who acquire a disability (the obvious example being acquired spinal cord injuries - I think late deafness is a special case that doesn't necessarily apply). Of course there's a grieving period; these parents are discovering that their children are going to be different in ways they don't yet understand, and that's very scary. But while some of these parents will continue to not understand, and some will stay in the community (on the same listserv or board or whatnot), others will disappear from sight - finding another venue or even deciding that they don't need a particular support group - when they start to figure things out, giving the impression that there are all these parents out there who just don't get it.

I've worked with a lot of what my community calls "Newly Diagnosed Parents", and I've found that the vast majority act as you would expect - they start, from the beginning, with the same fears and misconceptions as the rest of society has. How are they to know any better? Then, through exposure to reality - both in the form of getting to know their own child as an individual, and getting to know teens and adults with the same disability - they realize what life will really be like, and many of those fears and misconceptions fall away. We don't always see this happen online, because it's very easy to leave an online community; but behind the scenes, 9 times out of 10, this is what is happening.
 
Deafdike,

Have you ever seen a succesful CI-bearer?
And where do you socialise to see so many unsuccessfull children??
 
deafdyke said:
I see parents like this on my listservs, on my discussion boards and all over the place. Why just recently a parent of a hoh kid wrote in to express her grief over her son's being hoh.

!
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you know, I'm very happy I had no access to you when my children were dianosed with their various disablities. You have way to much of a 'know it all' 'superior' attitude about how a parent should react...the about statement say to me that you think no parent should greive over the fact that their child is going to have a harder time dealing with the world because he's hoh. I think the parent needs to grieve, I think you perhaps need to get rid of your problems with people who don't agree with your outlook on how kids who are hoh/deaf should be raised, families are different and many kids do not experience the 'failures' that you feel you were subjected to. Things have improved and will continue to improve educationally as parents become more aware of how to present their cases. And no it will never be utopia but that's life.
 
DD, look at it this from the perspective of the hearing parent that does not know anything about deafness and hearing loss issues. The majority of hearing people simply do not know much if anything about deaf culture, or issues.
So I, like most other hearing parents, react in a pretty predictable manner. We initially grieve and feel bad because our children will not grow up in the "normal or traditional" manner. When we are first told that our kids are deaf, we initially think that our kids future is in jeopardy. That is why we get sad or scared.
After we get over the initial shock of the news, we have to make some decisions. A major part of the decision process is doing our homework. Through doing homework, we visit webpages, message boards and so on. Some of us make some pretty generalized/uninformed andf flat out ignorant remarks. Most parents make these statements because we do not know anybetter. As we learn, we become more aware that some/most of our views are not realistic. We constantly adapt our views from what we continue to learn. Eventually, most patrents come to the conclusion that their child is no different before being diagnosed than they are after being diagnosed. We eventually realize that deaf kids are just kids, no more, no less. They just require a little extra attention and different strategies.
 
Sorry, I had to go. I had an important meeting. Once the parent realizes that the child is still just that.... a child. Then the parent begins to focus on going out of their way trying to let the child be a kid. This is probably why the parents go to the site, vent, talk all kinds of stuff that may offend, they dont know enough yet to realize that they are offending people. Once the begin to learn the course necesary for their child, they stop depending on resources, and just be a parent. They stop asking for help because they feel they have a good enough knowledge base. Whetehr they have the necessary info is debatable.
Gotta go, I'll be back
 
Lilysdad, i do understand 100%........but my point is that it does seem like a lot of the parents who choose oral speech and or complete and total mainstreaming, seem to be attracted to it b/c it seems like it's not blatently special needs. You know.....their kid doesn't have the trapppings of being "obviously disabled"......and yes, this isn't just limited to dhh kids. Many of my blind and physically disabled friends went through this too. Like blind ed is set up to be as "seeing" as possible. kids are taught to use their residual vision as much as possible, rather then their hearing/ touch/ other senses.
Wheelchair users are taught to really strive towards walking and not using a wheelchair, as the highest ideal. A lot of the parents are drawn towards the "rehabilation" model b/c it seems more "normal" ....If the rehab model pushed itself as more "just another more helpful skill to have" rather then "this is the only skill your child will ever need", that wouldn't be the case.
 
"kids are taught to use their residual vision as much as possible, rather then their hearing/ touch/ other senses."

Is that such a bad thing?

If one sense is lacking, it is common that the other 4 will become hypersensitive to compensate. So, if there is residual of the deminished sense, then I would expect the parent to want that residual sense developed (if possible). The reason I say this is that it COULD ultimately help the child in the future. Now I realize that there is more to raising the child than utilizing the deminished sense. I also think that alot more hearing prents of deaf kids realize this too. You always paint the picture of a hearing parent forcing the kid to assimilate a hearing person. While I cannot comment abou thow parents used to be, I think there are ALOT less parents like this than you think.
 
DD: As a CODA, as well as a mother of a deaf child, I really resent your statements...... My child is deaf and is implanted as well...... I did not want to CHANGE him just open up more doors and give him more opportunites... When I found out that my child was deaf, I cried.. and cried for days........ Why??????? Because I knew all too well of the struggles that many deaf people, including my parents have and had to face....... No parent wants their child to struggle....... I have SEEN firsthand the resentment of being isolated and living in this microcosim called "the Deaf community"..Did I want to FIX my child???? No, I accept him for who he is and I love him with all my heart. I actually feel BLESSED and privledged to be his mother. I wouldn't change anything about my child, including his deafness. It's who he is......just as much as being bi-laterally implanted is a part of him...As Rick as earlier, I know not of one parent that you describe.... Many parents research and make painful decisions for their children.. Not because of their "disablity" but because of their LOVE for their child. It's no different than a parent wanting to provide more for a child than what he/she had while growing up...It's called "being a parent"... I know that I rambling here and not making any sense, but I am sooooo furious with your insensitiivty..... It sounds as if you have some issues that you like to deflect on the parents of today.
 
DoubleTrouble,
Good posting. Powerful view from the inside...

DeafDike:
....... but my point is that it does seem like a lot of the parents who choose oral speech and or complete and total mainstreaming, seem to be attracted to it b/c it seems like it's not blatently special needs.
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With more than 90% of deaf children being born from hearing parents.... wouldn't that be the obvious choice?
 
deafdyke said:
Wheelchair users are taught to really strive towards walking and not using a wheelchair, as the highest ideal. A lot of the parents are drawn towards the "rehabilation" model b/c it seems more "normal" ....If the rehab model pushed itself as more "just another more helpful skill to have" rather then "this is the only skill your child will ever need", that wouldn't be the case.
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I've been in some form of rehab or another since I was very young, and I'm gonna call shenanigans here. It's possible you've had some very bad experiences, but from everything I've seen, this is not the case for most people. As far as wheelchair users being encouraged to walk, that was one of the choices my parents (and I) had to make - on the one hand, my walking was seriously limiting my social and lifestyle choices; on the other hand, the physical benefits of walking in terms of cardio exercise - not to mention the very obvious benefits of not depending on a wheelchair (and thus not being entirely dependent on elevators and ramps and so forth) were very tempting. It was never a question of whether I'd need a chair; it was a question of when. We ended up deciding that even if my fitness declined some, it was worth it to keep me living an active lifestyle, but it was a sacrifice, and I know many people who've had to make the same sorts of decisions.

But, just to bring this back on topic - both options were provided. When I first started to use a chair, I was encouraged to leave it behind whenever possible; but it was always a choice I had. Now, we could swap stories of an older generation that was not given these choices - where it was all or nothing, or where wheelchairs and crutches were prohibited on the grounds that they were too 'special-needs', as you put it; but for the vast majority of American children, those days are in the past. The rehab industry has its problems, certainly, but that isn't one of them.
 
deafdyke said:
Lilysdad, i do understand 100%........but my point is that it does seem like a lot of the parents who choose oral speech and or complete and total mainstreaming, seem to be attracted to it b/c it seems like it's not blatently special needs. You know.....their kid doesn't have the trapppings of being "obviously disabled"......and yes, this isn't just limited to dhh kids. Many of my blind and physically disabled friends went through this too. Like blind ed is set up to be as "seeing" as possible. kids are taught to use their residual vision as much as possible, rather then their hearing/ touch/ other senses.
Wheelchair users are taught to really strive towards walking and not using a wheelchair, as the highest ideal. A lot of the parents are drawn towards the "rehabilation" model b/c it seems more "normal" ....If the rehab model pushed itself as more "just another more helpful skill to have" rather then "this is the only skill your child will ever need", that wouldn't be the case.
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Just my opinion, but I believe that these are the parents who have not completed the grief process and reached acceptance. They are stuck forever more in their grief. Parents naturally go through a grieving process just as you would with a death. I thought I had a hearing child, but then was told I had a deaf child. I had to let go of my perceptions, not of the child. Ih ad to grieve for the expectations I had internalized because those expectations had to be modified. You grieve for the loss of the dreams you form in hte process of becoming a parent. If you walk all the way through that grief process, you reach acceptance, and begin to undertand that you can still have the same expectations and the same dreams for your child and the only thing that needs to be modified is the couse allowed for acheiving those dreams. If you are very lucky, you reach the point where you have an understanding and conviction that your deaf child has provided you with an experience that has enriched your life in ways that were never imagined at the time of diagnosis.
 
Lillys dad said:
I am currently a school resource officer in a jr. high school. In other words, I am a cop that works in a jr high. I see every cross section of social class. It becomes painfully clear very quickly by watching these kids, who will be an educational and social success, and who will be a failure.
After meeting and seeing some of the parents, you can really see why the child is the product of tyheir environment. I do have to say there I know that there are some kids that will be the exception to the rule. I am glad that these kids will prove me wrong. In facty, I am one of the kids that would prove the theory wrong. But, whether the school is for the deaf, or hearing, a child that wants to succeed will prevail. The child that does not care enough to apply himself, will not ever reach his real pontential
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The last sentence is so true! I can already see from my students who will be the achievers and who will struggle even though they are so young. Also, it is interesting that those students who show motivation and interest in learning are the ones who have parents who are fully involved in their education process. Parents have a HUGE impact on their child's lives.
 
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