Observation

jillio said:
The thread is entitled "Observation" and the OP is sufficiently explanatory of the topic. This is not a thread called "FJ vents her anger and turns everything into a battle." We already have plenty of those.
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It may well do to just start a thread of that title, copy over all of FJ's venting anger posts - it would be the hottest thread on AD and the largest to boot since FJ has made over 6,400 posts on AD. :giggle:
 
jillio said:
And tell me, please, who is going to pay for those thousands of dollars in accommodation. Especially those that involve structural accommodation? CART is basically ineffective for a child that is not a quick reader. FM systems do not block out background noise and have been shown to have little effect on functional performance.

Adding ASL to the mix is free.
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You took the words right out of my mouth, Jillio, couldn't have expressed it better. :h5:
 
LinuxGold said:
I agree that FM systems do not block out background noises, but so do everything in general TOWARDS hearing people. With much exposure to FM, they might try (highly doubtful) and learn to ignore the "background noise" and identify the difference between voice and the noise.
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One word can sum that up - "Headache"! :P
 
faire_jour said:
As for people being against spoken language, I was very clear. They are against spoken language as a mode of communication in daily life. Yes, a kid can learn some phrases to easy communication in the hearing world, but if they communicate with spoken language, at home or school, that is considered being restrictive and it is unacceptable.

Oh, one hand you say that the kids don't need "intensive therapy" and specialized schooling, but the on the other hand, you say that they aren't performing as well as hearing kids. Maybe if they had that therapy and teachers of the deaf, they would be.
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Many of us have had "intensive therapy" and from our first-hand experience we are advising 'don't make any deaf child have to go that road'. :cool2:
 
deafdyke said:
Oh hell yes. The attitude is basicly " Oh we'll mainstream and accept you, but we won't give you accomondations you desperately need, b/c we just like the money you bring in. About the ONLY reason why mainstreaming is even popular is b/c the disabled kid brings money to the mainstream......BUT there's no law saying that a school cannot get away with providing a minimal accomondations approach. Kids in dhh programs do get more benifit from a solotaire approach. Plus the preschool/kindergarten elementary programs are good for kids who are too young to go off to live at school.
Actually to defend faire joure's choice of educational placement, while Miss Kat is doing well receptively her expressive spoken language is still REALLY behind. I don't think that faire joure has the training to teach a deaf kid to use spoken language. I do see both sides.....on one hand Miss Kat isn't able to learn on a second grade level just using spoken English.....It is inhibiting her chance to just learn, rather then have spoken language therapy as a school day.
Beowulf, that is AWESOME she's sending her son to Missouri School for the Deaf!
Is he in hearing aids and also getting speech training too?
YAY! Glad that many of the Deaf Schools are reconizing that they have to become hoh friendly in order to survive.
rick bear in mind that AG Bell is kind of high acheiving. It does not surprise me that a lot of AG Bell kids may only need minimal accomondations. But that's like looking at the graduates/curriculum of one of those exam schools in a city, and assuming that ALL graduates of that particualr school system do that well.
Heck, my senoir year of high school I did UNAIDED. Let me repeat that, UNAIDED and I made Honor Roll! All I had was a notetaker That doesn't mean that all hoh kids will be able to do that well. You are DAMN lucky your daughter didn't need more accomondations. Then you would see where we are coming from.
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Some achieve well at school, primarily due to their love of learning, and pure hard effort. I achieved well at school but struggled all the same. Just because the end result is honourable or admirable, doesn't mean there hasn't been some "sweat and tears" along the way.

(My apologies, DD, I was meaning to respond to Rick's post but somehow got here, maybe because it's 1am here!)
 
faire_jour said:
Imagine that, a parent wanting to share their journey to help support other parents! They should definitely be exposed to hate and vile comments and attacks for it.
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FJ, Oh please! There was nothing "hateful" or "vile" about the comments you are referring to. You react to being stood corrected that's all. No need to get vicious.
 
BecLak said:
FJ, Oh please! There was nothing "hateful" or "vile" about the comments you are referring to. You react to being stood corrected that's all. No need to get vicious.
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There were many, many hateful and vile vicious personal attacks on FJ (and a handful others who also happen to be pro-CI) in several threads in recent weeks. If you didn't see them before some of the worst were removed, there are still quite a few standing.

On one hand, I think this is a good thing that these remain, as those who come will see the true nature, intolerance, and bias of several of these posters. On the other hand, it also serves to show any new parents of deaf children how brutally ugly and unwelcoming certain factions of the community can be. Those who turn away after witnessing these attacks will turn instead to organizations such as AGBell, which provides information freely, extensive resources, financial help, legislative power, and acceptance of ALL approaches to deafness, aided, or not, deaf school or mainstream, A-V or ASL -- and where the membership is unified, empowered and active, rather than bitter, angry, and passive -- eating its own members. Sadly, the wonderful ASL community will be tarnished by the behavior of those few here who feel it necessary to disparage the attempts of hearing families to integrate their children into deaf culture, who consider the idea of CIs audism in itself regardless of language approach, and who see the valuing of English -- spoken and written -- to be a devaluing of ASL.
 
These "attacks", the "true nature, intolerance and bias" of some posters? If you're going to go there, let's address FJ's sarcasm, referring to us as "asses", "these people", giggling at someone who doesn't know how a word is pronounced? And that's just for starters.
 
AlleyCat said:
These "attacks", the "true nature, intolerance and bias" of some posters? If you're going to go there, let's address FJ's sarcasm, referring to us as "asses", "these people", giggling at someone who doesn't know how a word is pronounced? And that's just for starters.
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:werd:
 
Grendel, I know that you haven't been on AD for a long time and you haven't witnessed some of FJ's antics. I use the "ignore" feature. Works for me.

I have to wonder if you think the deaf community is so "brutally ugly," why are you here? I'm asking that question in all seriousness.
 
AlleyCat said:
These "attacks", the "true nature, intolerance and bias" of some posters? If you're going to go there, let's address FJ's sarcasm, referring to us as "asses", "these people", giggling at someone who doesn't know how a word is pronounced? And that's just for starters.
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Yea..if one doesnt want to get treated in a certain way, then dont treat others the same.

However, I never saw any vicious attacks on her daughter. Maybe on her views, yes. Big difference.
 
What I'm asking Grendel is what does she expect from this community? I try to support AD members whatever their situations and choices are. Is it fair to ask the AD community to accept negative stereotypes about the Deaf/HOH community?
 
sallylou said:
What I'm asking Grendel is what does she expect from this community? I try to support AD members whatever their situations and choices are. Is it fair to ask the AD community to accept negative stereotypes about the Deaf/HOH community?
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Exactly. Deaf people have been oppressed for so long by most hearing people. Telling us that we are wrong or etc, but when it comes to our experiences, ASL, Deaf schools, and the Deaf community, it triggers a negative response if negative stereotypes are made about them. What amazes me is that some people expect us to accept them and get shocked when we stand up for issues about deafness.
 
el -
why you bring up AGB's
"nominal" acceptance and how their techniques are "refined" - it's subtle, but the oral rhetoric is there, but it's very "couched"
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Yeah, read an issue of Volta Voices. The ads for the auditory verbal services are basicly " We don't use ASL or cued speech or any "special educational" methods" Heck, just look at their motto" Freedom in Listening and Talking." Can we say blatent and obvious?
It is a lot better then it was years ago, but that's not saying a lot. They still are very audist, just like the way there are people who think that English should be our country's ONLY language.(and yet the irony of that in both cases, is that they would love their kids to be BILINGAL!)
Gotta concentrate excclusively on speech, speech and more speech.
Grendel, I do agree 100% with you. It irrirtates the crap out of me that there are extremists who bash CIs or bash CI kids. They are going through the same stuff that we hoh kids went through back in the day. But I also think that a lot of the people who may have been driven away may have been driven away by misunderstandings of what Deaf people stand for. Many of us think that dhh kids should have the chance to be bilingal...it's just that we don't think that they should have to endure an eternal speech therapy session (which is what oralism is)
jillo, you said that there's research that says the FM really doesn't help all that much. That doesn't surprise me one iota. It really does seem to be a hit or miss accomondation. Can you shoot me some cites?
 
Freedom in Listening and Talking...:roll: It sure didnt give me that!
 
sallylou said:
Grendel, I know that you haven't been on AD for a long time and you haven't witnessed some of FJ's antics. I use the "ignore" feature. Works for me.

I have to wonder if you think the deaf community is so "brutally ugly," why are you here? I'm asking that question in all seriousness.
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Actually, while not long compared to many, I think I've been on since before FJ joined -- I started lurking in 2007 and officially joined in 2008. I didn't post for a very long time because I joined during an especially harsh period when several members were attacking parents with children who had CIs here and on deafread and I was being bombarded on my family blog and my youtube channel with some very mean emails accusing me of raping my child's head (literally), stating that child protective services were being called on me for cruelty/abuse, and that I shouldn't be surprised if someone "accidentally" removes and loses my child's processors at her school (also suggesting that she would be ridiculed and ostracized at any school for the deaf if I sent her wearing a CI). So I held off until I had more of a sense that this was not reflective of the deaf community as a whole, but was just a small but active faction on the fringe, and there were many other wonderful people from whom I could learn and with whom I could connect.

It's that small faction that I stated was committing these brutally ugly acts -- please note carefully what I've written. I consider myself and my family part of the deaf community -- my daughter uses ASL and is at a school for the deaf -- in real life, the community is very different from what I see here among those select but prolific few I mentioned. Most of the people here are wonderful people I want to continue to engage with, both online and off. Some I won't have anything to do with, after witnessing their awful behavior.

But I really don't understand why you would question me about why I am here because I object to the vicious behavior and attack mechanism that goes into action EVERY time FJ posts. I've stated my intent many times, but I don't see a need to continuously defend my participation in the deaf community -- I am very certain that sanctioning bad behavior is not required.
 
I'm sorry you had to go through that. But I'm glad you know that those few bad apples don't necessarily reflect the whole bucket.
 
GrendelQ said:
Actually, while not long compared to many, I think I've been on since before FJ joined -- I started lurking in 2007 and officially joined in 2008. I didn't post for a very long time because I joined during an especially harsh period when several members were attacking parents with children who had CIs here and on deafread and I was being bombarded on my family blog and my youtube channel with some very mean emails accusing me of raping my child's head (literally), stating that child protective services were being called on me for cruelty/abuse, and that I shouldn't be surprised if someone "accidentally" removes and loses my child's processors at her school (also suggesting that she would be ridiculed and ostracized at any school for the deaf if I sent her wearing a CI). So I held off until I had more of a sense that this was not reflective of the deaf community as a whole, but was just a small but active faction on the fringe, and there were many other wonderful people from whom I could learn and with whom I could connect.

It's that small faction that I stated was committing these brutally ugly acts -- please note carefully what I've written. I consider myself and my family part of the deaf community -- my daughter uses ASL and is at a school for the deaf -- in real life, the community is very different from what I see here among those select but prolific few I mentioned. Most of the people here are wonderful people I want to continue to engage with, both online and off. Some I won't have anything to do with, after witnessing their awful behavior.

But I really don't understand why you would question me about why I am here because I object to the vicious behavior and attack mechanism that goes into action EVERY time FJ posts. I've stated my intent many times, but I don't see a need to continuously defend my participation in the deaf community -- I am very certain that sanctioning bad behavior is not required.
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There is a reason she specifically is "getting attacked" - as opposed to many others. Take a look around now, things are much more calmer.
 
GrendelQ said:
There were many, many hateful and vile vicious personal attacks on FJ (and a handful others who also happen to be pro-CI) in several threads in recent weeks. If you didn't see them before some of the worst were removed, there are still quite a few standing.

On one hand, I think this is a good thing that these remain, as those who come will see the true nature, intolerance, and bias of several of these posters. On the other hand, it also serves to show any new parents of deaf children how brutally ugly and unwelcoming certain factions of the community can be. Those who turn away after witnessing these attacks will turn instead to organizations such as AGBell, which provides information freely, extensive resources, financial help, legislative power, and acceptance of ALL approaches to deafness, aided, or not, deaf school or mainstream, A-V or ASL -- and where the membership is unified, empowered and active, rather than bitter, angry, and passive -- eating its own members. Sadly, the wonderful ASL community will be tarnished by the behavior of those few here who feel it necessary to disparage the attempts of hearing families to integrate their children into deaf culture, who consider the idea of CIs audism in itself regardless of language approach, and who see the valuing of English -- spoken and written -- to be a devaluing of ASL.
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From what I have seen in this thread, FJ has been responding here on AD out of reaction to mistreatment she has received outside of AD, yet she vents her anger at people on this forum. For a short while this type of venting is tolerated as it can be part of the healing process, but when it carries over to where there is no foundation for the anger at the people she is interacting with, somewhere along the line, people will then start saying 'enough is enough'.

I spent a lot of time last night reading this thread from beginning to end because I had been away from AD over the past two weeks or so. My post was stating about FJ's response to some of the comments on this thread.

There were no "hateful", "vile", or "attacks" on this thread towards FJ or her child. Even though she received those comments outside of AD, there was no comments of that nature on this thread so there was no need for a vicious retort. She needs to vent her anger elsewhere. It's no wonder she creates such a retaliative reaction from posters. I commend the posters (other than FJ and those coming to her 'defense') for turning this thread around to avoid another all out 'war'.

Many of us deafies have experienced a lot of mistreatment from the hearing world, and yes, we vent our anger at times, but we don't make 'personal vendetta attacks' on individuals or at the AD community as a whole - as FJ has done.

Our venting is very generalised and not 'targetting' any ADer or at the AD Community as FJ does. When we correct her, she doesn't stand corrected, but takes it as a personal 'attack' and uses her daughter as a shield.

Saying that she is taking things too personally and that the thread is 'not all about her or her daughter' is not a personal attack against any of them. Saying that we are tired of being wrongly accused of 'attacking' her etc is not wrong either.

FJ needs to stand back and take a deep breath, and starting letting go of this anger or starting venting it in the right direction - away from the AD forum.
 
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