Obama supporters?

[jillio]

Like I said - This is not whole-fully about guns. Right-to-carry permit holders exhibit a self-sufficiency that doesn't fit into Obama's mindset of weak citizens dependent on government. It is typical Democratic stance - to have bigger federal oversight to regulate our life, to dictate what's good or bad for us. That is Obama's stand.

About your comment - "Perhaps if this country were more inclined to uphold the basic civil rights of all of its citizens, one would not need a gun to protect oneself. There would be much less social anger and frustration." Actually we were given more rights than during Clinton Administration. We actually have guns which many were banned under Clinton Gun Ban - self-sufficiency and basic civil rights of all citizens!

Being given rights in a piece of paper, and actually having those rights upheld are two very different situations, jiro123. Until those rights are upheld for all citizens, we will continue to have a society that upholds the rights (and beyond) of some, and ignores and violates the rights of others based on superficial criteria. That, my friend, is exactly what creates the anger and frustration that makes a certain faction believe they must be armed in order to "protect" themselves. More concealed carry permits only exacerbates the situation, and reinforces the mistaken mindset. Social change and equity is the answer.

 

[Jiro]

Being given rights in a piece of paper, and actually having those rights upheld are two very different situations, jiro123. Until those rights are upheld for all citizens, we will continue to have a society that upholds the rights (and beyond) of some, and ignores and violates the rights of others based on superficial criteria. That, my friend, is exactly what creates the anger and frustration that makes a certain faction believe they must be armed in order to "protect" themselves. More concealed caryy permits only exacerbates the situation. Social change and equity is the answer.

I beg to differ but we've exhaustively debated about that in other thread so we'll leave at that. All I can say is that - less limitation equals less frustrations. A state with high restrictions/limitations/etc. on drugs, guns, lifestyle, etc. tends to have more crimes and frustrations.

Illegal abortion? Illegal marijuana? Illegal guns? Illegal vehicles? Illegal everything? ay de mi! you're going to have a riot on your hands! If you notice - a very liberal state has far more laws (relating to restrictions) than a conservative state. I guess they feel we can't take care of ourselves and they think we don't know how to behave. This is why I'm seriously considering moving to Pennsylvania. NJ sadly lacks common sense.

 

[jillio]

I beg to differ but we've exhaustively debated about that in other thread so we'll leave at that. All I can say is that - less limitation equals less frustrations. A state with high restrictions/limitations/etc. on drugs, guns, lifestyle, etc. tends to have more crimes and frustrations.

Illegal abortion? Illegal marijuana? Illegal guns? Illegal vehicles? Illegal everything? ay de mi! you're going to have a riot on your hands! If you notice - a very liberal state has far more laws (relating to restrictions) than a conservative state. I guess they feel we can't take care of ourselves and they think we don't know how to behave. This is why I'm seriously considering moving to Pennsylvania. NJ sadly lacks common sense.

Illegal status is the by product of a conservative way of thought, not a liberal way of thought.

 

[darkdog]

Darkdog, you will have my answer later. I am busy in the office for preparation due my 4 whole weeks leave on Friday. - You also, too Jiro123.

Thanks Liebling. Italy? Lucky! I hope you have a good, relaxing time.

Look at the way the American society is stratified. That explains it all.

That only leaves me to make assumptions which can only lead to misunderstandings. I'm curious exactly whose civil rights are being violated, by whom, and how.

 

[Jiro]

Illegal status is the by product of a conservative way of thought, not a liberal way of thought.

on different issues.

For ie. Conservative - no gay marriage, no abortions, yes death penalty. Liberal - no guns, no death penalty.

Conservative way of thought lies on mostly traditional personal preferences while Liberal way of thought lies on mostly life issues.

 

[jillio]

Thanks Liebling. Italy? Lucky! I hope you have a good, relaxing time.


That only leaves me to make assumptions which can only lead to misunderstandings. I'm curious exactly whose civil rights are being violated, by whom, and how.

We can start with members of any minority population, women, and people with disabilities, people of lower SES status. Rights are being violated through reduced access to societal benefits, inequities in opportunity, and inequities in legal defense, inequities in health care. They are being violated by those who don't belong to these groups, and through public policy as well as toleration of violation of public policy designed to prevent such. Surely you are not so naive as to believe that this is not happening.

 

[jillio]

on different issues.

For ie. Conservative - no gay marriage, no abortions, yes death penalty. Liberal - no guns, no death penalty.

Conservative way of thought lies on mostly traditional personal preferences while Liberal way of thought lies on mostly life issues.

Conservative way of thought leads to greater legislation and passing of laws that actually create the situations you are talking about. And personal preferences are reflected in life issues, as well as being the result of lifestyle.

 

[darkdog]

We can start with members of any minority population, women, and people with disabilities, people of lower SES status. Rights are being violated through reduced access to societal benefits, inequities in opportunity, and inequities in legal defense, inequities in health care. They are being violated by those who don't belong to these groups, and through public policy as well as toleration of violation of public policy designed to prevent such. Surely you are not so naive as to believe that this is not happening.

Now we're getting somewhere. Please don't assume my questioning to be a reflection of bright-eyed naivety. When you make assertions, I like to hear specifics because I'm genuinely interested in learning your point of view.

So to list out your response...
The victims: minorities, women, the disabled, the poor

The violations: reduced societal benefits, opportunity, legal defense, and health care

The aggressors: rich white men

The methods: public policy, toleration of illegal activities

If I did my math right, that's 32 distinct discussions we could have. A bit too many for now, so I'll narrow it down a bit. I'm most curious about which policies are targeting minorities and women. And since this is an Obama thread, how will Obama fix those policies?

 

[Byrdie714]

Now we're getting somewhere. Please don't assume my questioning to be a reflection of bright-eyed naivety. When you make assertions, I like to hear specifics because I'm genuinely interested in learning your point of view.

So to list out your response...
The victims: minorities, women, the disabled, the poor

The violations: reduced societal benefits, opportunity, legal defense, and health care

The aggressors: rich white men

The methods: public policy, toleration of illegal activities

If I did my math right, that's 32 distinct discussions we could have. A bit too many for now, so I'll narrow it down a bit. I'm most curious about which policies are targeting minorities and women. And since this is an Obama thread, how will Obama fix those policies?

Not necessairly.

As for how Obama will fix these things, the first thing that people have to realize is that in order for people to get ahead in society-- it takes education to help one to acheieve it. I am hoping that Obama will be able to expand more educational programs for minorities to benefit from them.

 

[jillio]

Now we're getting somewhere. Please don't assume my questioning to be a reflection of bright-eyed naivety. When you make assertions, I like to hear specifics because I'm genuinely interested in learning your point of view.

So to list out your response...
The victims: minorities, women, the disabled, the poor

The violations: reduced societal benefits, opportunity, legal defense, and health care

The aggressors: rich white men

The methods: public policy, toleration of illegal activities

If I did my math right, that's 32 distinct discussions we could have. A bit too many for now, so I'll narrow it down a bit. I'm most curious about which policies are targeting minorities and women. And since this is an Obama thread, how will Obama fix those policies?

You have made some incorrect assumptions that leaves your mathematical computations irrelevent.

And Obama will improve the situation for the groups I have mentioned in numerous ways. It is not a matter of a singular action that will resolve the issue. It is a matter of an all encompassing way of thought and policy. It is matter of priority of concern.

 

[jillio]

Not necessairly.

As for how Obama will fix these things, the first thing that people have to realize is that in order for people to get ahead in society-- it takes education to help one to acheieve it. I am hoping that Obama will be able to expand more educational programs for minorities to benefit from them.

That would be a great start, Byrdie.

 

[Byrdie714]

That would be a great start, Byrdie.

It is. Because everyone knows that education is the key to success.

I am reminded of programs that have started in certain neighborhoods in this country where they have mixed incomes. I visited one of those neighborhoods in Portland, Oregon.

Granted--they were very nice.

But one problem--just because the one neighbor is making $60.000 a year and Joe Cool-next door- is on welfare --doesn't necessairly help him knowing that he lives next door to a individual that makes more moeny than him.

Thus the resentment of the "have's" and "have-not's" is there.

I talked to an realtor about this project and we both agreed, it's the education levels of indidviduals.

 

[jillio]

It is. Because everyone knows that education is the key to success.

I am reminded of programs that have started in certain neighborhoods in this country where they have mixed incomes. I visited one of those neighborhoods in Portland, Oregon.

Granted--they were very nice.

But one problem--just because the one neighbor is making $60.000 a year and Joe Cool-next door- is on welfare --doesn't necessairly help him knowing that he lives next door to a individual that makes more moeny than him.

Thus the resentment of the "have's" and "have-not's" is there.

I talked to an realtor about this project and we both agreed, it's the education levels of indidviduals.

Absolutely. Equity in education reduces the societal stratification. Extreme stratification is what is responsible for the dissatisfaction that leads to higher crime rates.

 

[Byrdie714]

Absolutely. Equity in education reduces the societal stratification. Extreme stratification is what is responsible for the dissatisfaction that leads to higher crime rates.

Have you been taking Philosophy?

 

[jillio]

Have you been taking Philosophy?

I've got a few courses under my belt, but actually that is based on sociological theory. Of course, there is cross over in the foundation of the theories (sociological,psychological, and philisophical) as all are concerned with the human reaction to their given circumstances.

 

[Jiro]

Jillio - I know you're a heavy staunch on SES policy as key answer to cleaning up neighborhoods. This reminds me of a similar SES policy in NYC remake. Commissioner Bratton and former Mayor Guiliani hired a SES expert as consultant to change NYC. I'm sure you've heard of "Broken Windows Theory."

It took several years and now I can actually stroll along Harlem without fear of mugging/stabbing/etc! Many people did not know this but Times Square & Madison Square Garden used to be hotspots for drug addict, mafia, etc. It was cleaned up and renovated to what you see now.

You also strongly advocated that education is the key to many problems but I have to point out... which is obvious... that it's not for all. That's why there are different classes in society, especially for working class - education is not going to help them much... just basic education will do such as simple math and literacy. However, their children will benefit from it but it's going to be difficult because education is a costly investment - go to good school (especially private), college, supplies, etc.

(ughh I forgot what's SES and I can't remember which thread is it in... Socio-Economic System?)

 

[jillio]

Jillio - I know you're a heavy staunch on SES policy as key answer to cleaning up neighborhoods. This reminds me of a similar SES policy in NYC remake. Commissioner Bratton and former Mayor Guiliani hired a SES expert as consultant to change NYC. I'm sure you've heard of "Broken Windows Theory."

It took several years and now I can actually stroll along Harlem without fear of mugging/stabbing/etc! Many people did not know this but Times Square & Madison Square Garden used to be hotspots for drug addict, mafia, etc. It was cleaned up and renovated to what you see now.

You also strongly advocated that education is the key to many problems but I have to point out... which is obvious... that it's not for all. That's why there are different classes in society, especially for working class - education is not going to help them much... just basic education will do such as simple math and literacy. However, their children will benefit from it but it's going to be difficult because education is a costly investment - go to good school (especially private), college, supplies, etc.

(ughh I forgot what's SES and I can't remember which thread is it in... Socio-Economic System?)

Socio-economic Status.

And as far as our working class is concerned, they are not receiving even sufficient basic education. That needs to be changed.

Education is but one of the issues, and only part of the answer. It is, however, an important variable.

What you describe are the result of social ills that can easily be explained by the conflict theory. Some social and politcal policies increase conflict, some reduce conflict. Currently, we are under an adminsitration whose policy and mindset increases conflict. We need a change. Change needs to happen not just in individual areas, but in mindset.

 

[darkdog]

You have made some incorrect assumptions that leaves your mathematical computations irrelevent.

Please enlighten me. I want to make sure we're on the same wavelength here.

And Obama will improve the situation for the groups I have mentioned in numerous ways. It is not a matter of a singular action that will resolve the issue. It is a matter of an all encompassing way of thought and policy. It is matter of priority of concern.

Specifically, what kind of policies?

 

[jillio]

Please enlighten me. I want to make sure we're on the same wavelength here.


Specifically, what kind of policies?

You are using fallicious, circular logic.

Specifically, social policies.

 

[Byrdie714]

Socio-economic Status.

And as far as our working class is concerned, they are not receiving even sufficient basic education. That needs to be changed.

Education is but one of the issues, and only part of the answer. It is, however, an important variable.

What you describe are the result of social ills that can easily be explained by the conflict theory. Some social and politcal policies increase conflict, some reduce conflict. Currently, we are under an adminsitration whose policy and mindset increases conflict. We need a change. Change needs to happen not just in individual areas, but in mindset.

Have you ever thought about teaching a college class? Definately would be a fun class to be in with you teaching it!