NRA offensive exposes deep U.S. divisions on guns

[Jiro]

Jiro, if you love Korea so much go there, volunteer the South Korean Army, show them the 'american way' of loyality in the military.

kimchi!

 

[Jiro]

Just because a person is drafted into the military doesn't necessarily mean he's less patriotic or professional. TCS was originally a draftee but became a career Navy sailor. There were many draftees of World War II, Korea, and Vietnam who served honorably.

There are factors other than draft vs. volunteer that effect the quality of a country's military forces. One such factor is the rate/rank structure and how promotion is attained. During the Cold War, one big difference between American services and Soviet ones was that the Soviet military was mostly short-term enlisted conscripts and career officers. They lacked a strong middle management level of career senior enlisted non-commissioned officers (the sergeants and chiefs).

it's not about the measure of patriotism. this is a modern time and we look back at history as a lesson. in case of draft vs. volunteer, there are overwhelming facts showing that volunteers fare better. It would be great if South Korea be defended by volunteers rather than those forced into armed forces. less casualty rate that way.

Don't get offended by my posts. Anybody in armed forces still have my utmost respect. It's those politicians quibbling around and making series of poor decisions.

 

[AdamFencepost]

This was an extraordinary red herring, Jiro.

You really put yourself into it.

 

[Reba]

it's not about the measure of patriotism. this is a modern time and we look back at history as a lesson. in case of draft vs. volunteer, there are overwhelming facts showing that volunteers fare better. It would be great if South Korea be defended by volunteers rather than those forced into armed forces. less casualty rate that way.

Don't get offended by my posts. Anybody in armed forces still have my utmost respect. It's those politicians quibbling around and making series of poor decisions.

"Facts?"

Sgt. York was a draftee.

 

[VacationGuy234]

South Korea has a battleship? It must have been a miniature since it only had a crew of 104. Our battleship crews (when we had them) were about 1,300. :P You probably meant warship.

p.s. I wouldn't go around telling Korean or Vietnam veterans those weren't military wars. It might go badly for you.

My mistake, I should not have called it a battleship.

I doubt it, my father was in Korea. Yes, it was a war, but the objective of the United States was not to wadge a war so much as prevent one. We did not want another WWII and if MacArthur realized this he would not have been fired.

 

[CrazyPaul]

you're forgetting something - a geographic disadvantage. and you are incorrect on everything. First of all, it would take several months for them to fly troops and heavy equipments to there. (Did you forget that it took over 6 months to mobilize thousands of American troops, tanks, helicopters, fighter jets, etc. to Iraq?)

1. China is actually a friend of both North Korea and South Korea.
2. South Korea has only 1 ally - America but its peripheral allies are Taiwan and Japan.
3. Japan does not have a military per se because of its new Constitution after WW2.
4. None of these countries you listed above have an official military treaty like NATO with South Korea. They're not going to help out except to provide humanitarian and medical relief.
5. China will continue to exerts its power to defuse Korean War as what they've been doing for decades.
6. Did you forget that China rebukes North Korea for firing a test missile? Wikileak revealed that China has grown frustrated with North Korea and it's straining their relationship.

WikiLeaks: China weary of North Korea behaving like 'spoiled child' - CNN
WikiLeaks: China 'would back one Korea run by South' - Telegraph
Wikileaks cables reveal China 'ready to abandon North Korea' | World news | The Guardian

like I said - this is not about winning the war. EVERYONE loses. NONE of them want a war. do you understand that once a war ignites again... both capitols will be obliterated? do you understand what kind of impact this will have on international market?

North Korea and South Korea are not like America with wide open space where we can live wherever we like. There are very very very limited livable areas in Korean peninsula that can support a certain number of people. Both Seoul (and Pusan) and Pyongyang are pretty much the only areas big enough to support millions of Koreans. Rest of Koreas are not suitable enough to support a mega city as the majority of terrains is mountainous.

That's why Americans had hard time winning Korean War. It's like Afghanistan x 100. It's just mountains after mountains after mountains. Nearly impossible to move tanks and artilleries around. The only way to mobilize American tanks from one city to another city is to transport them by plane because North Korea will most likely destroy several vital bridges. Our largest military transport plane (C-5 Galaxy) can transport only two Abram tanks at a time.

Do you realize that most of South Korean population resides in Seoul? Dozens if not hundreds or thousands of North Korean missiles are pointed at Seoul as part of NK's trump card. This would make Hamas' rockets looks like a cute firework.

The amount of your ignorance is outstanding. So outstanding that it's embarrassing me as an American citizen that you don't even know this country's federal laws and the international affairs. *smh*

Blah, blah, blah... Anyway all I hope for is that NK will not ever start a war.

 

[Jiro]

This was an extraordinary red herring, Jiro.

You really put yourself into it.

and what red herring is that? I have already shown you overwhelming facts that conscription won't work for America now and we would be worse off if it were to continue. It's a blessing that President Nixon nixed (no pun intended) it and America has gotten stronger and better than ever since then. That's is what I'm urging Korean government to do.

Japanese Occupation. Korean War. Yeonpyeong Island Bombardment. Cheonan Sinking. all meek response from Koreans. This is the fact that the American Constitution works pretty well. This is the fact why Amendment Two must be vigorously defended or we'll end up like Koreans.

I'm sorry if you felt offended or whatsoever but you are continuing to think from American perspective and you're letting your emotion getting the best of you because of your ancestors serving in armed force. Put that away for a moment and think from Korean perspective.

so I'll ask you this - with this current event going on now, do you have much faith in a volunteer or conscript to defend a homeland?

 

[Jiro]

Blah, blah, blah... Anyway all I hope for is that NK will not ever start a war.

good! let's keep it that way.... as long as we don't let it run by ignorant people

 

[AdamFencepost]

Conscripts vs Volunteers? Let me see if I can make any sense out of this (you can tell me later how faulty my thought process is, I'm sure). You are saying that in the interest of "a well-regulated militia" that there should be no changes to US gun laws - remember, that topic?

You are basing this strongly on comparisons with the situation on the Korean Peninsula. And, concerned about comparable situations in Texas.

try adding reality to that number. that number will shrink quite rapidly. think Vietnam War, WW1, WW2, Korean War, etc.


you need to think in multidimensions. everything in America depends on everything. if Texas gets overtaken by a foreign invader. . .

Any comparison of gun crime, gun suicides, gun accidents cannot be made:

you cannot compare America with other country. it's apple-orange. How can you compare America with.... say Korea? or Japan? very very apple-orange. . .

Is this some kind of punji pit or just a fruit market we are venturing into, Jiro? And, I couldn't care less.

 

[Grummer]

Try asking any Korean especially the ones who have completed compulsory service. They'll easily tell you that South Korean military is in a pathetic shape and majority of them do not even want to fight. They're all a bunch of pansy and it's like a college dorm in there. They've got video games... they are able to decorate some of make their living quarter to make it more "homely"... and you can bullshit your way thru PT. a complete joke. The reason for conscription is just a show of force, hoping it would deter North Koreans from getting trigger-happy... nothing more, nothing less.

wow, thats pretty much describes the whole point of the distinction between volunteering and drafted. and everything else...its a frightening situation there is over there....with a madman from the North, touting nuclear arms to the whole world, just to feed of the addiction of power. Man this is sick.
I have just re-read your thread for the last 2 pages, and I can see with great clarity, and can empathise with your concern. Indeed, its a worrying situation. Thanks for sharing, also Ive' learnt not just about the military, culture, politics aspects of korea but the cuisine!, and I'm gonna head off to the nearest Korean restaurent this week..

 

[CrazyPaul]

They're not equipped nor trained to engage in war. Their military capability is extremely limited. They cannot be count on as ally. That's why there are approximately 36,000 Americans stationed in Japan.

Do you know what UN peacekeeping missions are like? just ride around in pretty white APC with blue flag and stand with rifles - hoping that enemy won't attack. and also delivering food & medicines to locals.

I remember thinking "Where the hell is Japanese army?" during Iraq war and then found out they only sent money. No shit!

 

[AdamFencepost]

8 year old unwrapped her teddy bear Christmas morning,

only to discover it came pre-packaged with a pistol.

UPI, this morning

 

[diehardbiker]

Evidence of black market for pistols thrives.

And it suggested that the black market for guns is likely to be bigger than what we think. Why? If the black market is very limited or tight, then these kinds of mistakes would not have happened. So therefore the market is so huge, increasing the chances of mistaken swapped the shipment.

8 year old unwrapped her teddy bear Christmas morning,

only to discover it came pre-packaged with a pistol.

UPI, this morning

 

[CrazyPaul]

8 year old unwrapped her teddy bear Christmas morning,

only to discover it came pre-packaged with a pistol.

UPI, this morning

Someone must be fucking crazy to do that.

 

[diehardbiker]

Yeah! Now, whats your point of gun control? Will it help? Like you said somebody must be f... crazy so pointless for gun control.

Someone must be fucking crazy to do that.

 

[CrazyPaul]

Yeah! Now, whats your point of gun control? Will it help? Like you said somebody must be f... crazy so pointless for gun control.

Well, gun control is discussed because of gun violence, not because of that particular donation. Relax, man...

When if there is gun control, will it kill you? Fucking no, right?

 

[diehardbiker]

Looks like you don't understand what I was trying to point out.

Well, gun control is discussed because of gun violence, not because of that particular donation. Relax, man...

When if there is gun control, will it kill you? Fucking no, right?

 

[Reba]

So far, I've seen opinions about volunteers vs. conscripts, but no overwhelming "facts."

TCS and I both served with volunteers and draftees, and unless they told us how they joined, we couldn't tell the difference. A good many draftees stayed in beyond their required enlistments and became career military.

The draft gave us a good mix of people from all kinds of backgrounds. I guess nowadays that would be called "diversity."

If anything, I've noticed during the AVF era since 9/11, the standards for enlistment and retention have gotten less stringent.

Here's another opinion:

...One vigorous defender of historical fact during this reporting period (centered on 1995) was the Wall Street Journal. By 1997, however, readers of the Journal began to take note of articles by a staff reporter named Thomas E. Ricks who also carried a byline in the Atlantic Monthly. Mr. Ricks has written frequently about matters that affect the U.S. military and has been particularly applauded for articles on military personnel. On May 30, 1997 under the headline, "Latest Battle for the Military Is How Best to Deal with Consensual Sex," Mr. Ricks included the following paragraph in an otherwise excellent article on this complex subject:

"A key fact about today's U.S. military is that military experts generally agree it's the world's best, arguably for the first time in history. So today's generals aren't just being politically correct when they express support for the gender-integrated military. They also would rather command a force of competent volunteers of both sexes than the main alternative-a force of less-trained and sometimes surly male draftees."

That last sentence, particularly the phrase "sometimes surly draftees", revealed that Mr. Ricks and the Journal were involved in a bit of history re-writing of their own. Only the Wall Street Journal knows how the paragraph ever got by its editors into a Journal feature article. The phrase had no relation to Mr. Ricks' central points. Neither the Journal nor Mr. Ricks responded to a letter I wrote to the Journal about it. It is not objectionable to find "today's generals" proud of their forces. Ricks does not identify any sources in the group, "they also would". The reader is left to guess why the last sentence ever goes beyond "a force of competent volunteers of both sexes" to disparage "sometimes surly male draftees." Denigrating three generations of draftees in WW II, Korea, and Vietnam, by suggesting that they could "sometimes" be surly might have come from some of today's generals, or from one of today's generals, or from Pentagon gossip. It's a bum rap. (In the Foreword to my published book, a reader will find an even greater disparagement of volunteers by another prominent columnist in a public newspaper. (Author Ricks later sent me an e-mail in which he emphasized that he was reflecting Pentagon prevailing thought at the time.)

I have never met a surly draftee. In 1968, two wars after the one providing the backdrop for this story, one of my sons "volunteered" for duty in the Vietnam conflict as he was about to be drafted. (He served as a tank commander in Vietnam in the Pleiku area.) The line can be very faint between draftee and volunteer. It certainly disappears in the body bag. I have met many young men, spanning three generations, caught in the same circumstance as my son. The soldiers, sailors and airmen of the Korean and the Vietnam conflicts, on the eve of their being called to duty for their country, were no different than the young men "sweating" duty in WW II. When I think of the sacrifices these men have made, and the conditions under which they fought, it occurs to me that most of today's generals, writers and editors are not likely to have had contact with those draftees except by reading about them. So, generals, writers and editors, currently active in your professions, read what I relate. (Another son volunteered in the early1970s and became a tank commander in Europe's cold war.)

My Doubts About the All Volunteer Armed Forces-July 31, 2011

By July 2011, as we approach the 10th anniversary of the three-pronged attack on our country of Sept. 11, 2001, our nation has been engaged in Afghanistan and Iraq since 9/11. Thoughts on the largely draftee complement with which we fought World War II, Korea and Viet Nam, continue to occupy my mind. We have had our all-volunteer Armed Forces now for long enough to reflect on that aspect of our war readiness. Surely, we are much more war ready. The 'ready at all costs' part of our society deserrves some thought. In World War II we could expand on a small base of professionals, but we faced a challenging build up The draft has been messy politically, at least since Woodrow Wilson's need in 1917..

Now, with the "all volunteer" Armed Forces, the Generals have their troops, ready to go. The President has his Generals, ready to go. Have we become, too ready to go?

Draftees or Volunteers. World War II needed them all. All-volunteer armed forces bring criticism of draftees. Prewar Midshipmen marching at Bancroft Hall. Four views.

 

[AdamFencepost]

The gun with the teddy bear had no firing pin. Perhaps it was meant as a child's toy.

The important quote at the end of the article:

"According to the Children's Defense Fund, nearly 3,000 children a year die from guns in the United State, and six times as many suffer non-fatal injuries from guns."

 

[Jiro]

I remember thinking "Where the hell is Japanese army?" during Iraq war and then found out they only sent money. No shit!

and you thought Japanese would help SK out? nope! just some money and food. that's about it.