Now, limiting flu shots to 65 and older?

[netrox]

Will you feel the same way when you get older?

I would think it's unfair but unlike you, I believe in prioritories for the society. When I am 75 demanding vaccine when statistics say that my death is near anytime and the young is more likely to be infected and die, then I am actually being selfish. My life would be more completed by then and I don't see WHY i should demand it when others really need it more. Personally, I don't want to die even in old age but that's the way it is. It's about having a moral and civic duty for the society. Nothing's fair, didn't I tell you?

You feel that saving lives thru early detection is "silly"?

For some diseases at certain ages, yes, definitely silly.

Until we come up with extremely cheap effective ways to detect diseases *accurately*, it is not cost effective for many things at this point. We're still working on refining medical detections and making them cheaper and safer.

We have yearly blood work and the blood work is highly effective at detecting many diseases, even several types of cancer can be detected indirectly through blood work. Blood test is highly effective and cheap because if there is some abnormalities, we can quickly know something's not right.

But it is NOT cost effective to make women get mammogram at say age 30. Mammograms are NOT cheap and has harmed and even killed more false positives at that age. What about those who ACTUALLY had breast cancer? It doesn't matter. For every life saved, a couple of lives were lost or harmed. Take my mother for example, she got mammogram and was told she has a "tumor" so she had biopsy. For two years, she had pain in her breast. Turns out that there was a needle left inside her breast! Had to go through surgery again. That is an example of how a person's life is harmed through false-positives.

Also, I had way too many false-positives after melanoma hit me. I was fed up with doctors removing moles that were absolutely unnecessary. Melanoma is NOT cancer that's "hidden" - if you have melanoma, you see changes in moles. It's been 8 years now and I am still fine. I still shudder at the medical costs being wasted for nothing and risking skin infections, especially done in hospitals!

HIV testing is another example. It makes no sense to test every American for HIV if you calculate the cost of HIV test and having people show up with false positives. It's more effective to talk to patients about their risk factors and test them if their risk factors demand them.

 

[Lighthouse77]

you know, losing a parent does make it hard on the child especially the child has a disability and the only person he has who loves him is his parents. After his parents are gone and he has a long life ahead of him, it does get lonely for him. Sometimes maybe a parent want to be healthy as long as she can for her child's sake. This is just not right to discriminate someone because of their age. You don't know their story.

Young people do not base their life around young people, you know. Older people are their friends too.

 

[netrox]

you know, losing a parent does make it hard on the child especially the child has a disability and the only person he has who loves him is his parents. After his parents are gone and he has a long life ahead of him, it does get lonely for him. Sometimes maybe a parent want to be healthy as long as she can for her child's sake. This is just not right to discriminate someone because of their age. You don't know their story.

Young people do not base their life around young people, you know. Older people are their friends too.

Again, you're talking about individual stories. I enjoy being around old people as well. I have a couple of friends who are adult dependents on their parents due to their disabilities.

But imagine that you get the information that there's a flu going around and that it's killing the young and sparing the old, wouldn't You want your OWN child and your grandchildren to be vaccinated?

That's exactly what they're saying with swine flu vaccinations - they find that unlike seasonal flu that kills the old, the swine flu kills the young the most.

 

[Lighthouse77]

sometime the old give the young the swine flu, but anyway, people are more happy to avoid the flu shots. I think those who don't want to take it shouldn't be forced to take it so those who need it can.

but I wasn't talking about swine flu on your part.. you keep saying all these early screening is a waste of time and you act as if they should not be allow to even have a screening. Well for some people, they do not think screening is a waste of time and money at all. If they did, they would stop taking it.

 

[netrox]

sometime the old give the young the swine flu, but anyway, people are more happy to avoid the flu shots. I think those who don't want to take it shouldn't be forced to take it so those who need it can.

but I wasn't talking about swine flu on your part.. you keep saying all these early screening is a waste of time and you act as if they should not be allow to even have a screening. Well for some people, they do not think screening is a waste of time and money at all. If they did, they would stop taking it.

Are you familiar with the body CT Scan? Sounds so wonderful - it could even detect cancer at its early stage so why not implement for everyone? I want one myself too as it would be so cool to see my internal body.

But it comes with a real problem. The cost of false positives remains way too high, harming MORE patients than saving lives and costing more. Most people have slight abnormalities and tumors that are absolutely harmless. In the near future, we will have better technology to detect dangerous tumors and be able to combine with blood tests to better determine if the tumor is malignant or not. We're consistently looking for ways to find biomarkers that are generated when cancer is present.

It takes a while but we'll get there but the reality is that right now, it's not effective. You may hear PERSONAL stories of people who were saved by early detection BUT you have to look at the whole picture - what about patients who received false positives and were harmed and even died?

 

[Lighthouse77]

why is it your business what they do? My mom never had any screening and she died of breast cancer. In fact, she was one of the reason why I thought about maybe national healthcare isn't so bad . she could have prevented this. But now you say stuffs like this, I'm going back toward being against this. You aren't the only one. There are many other people who agree with you that it is scary.
'btw... don't bother getting screening for diabete either, or pregnancy tests. There are just so many negatives.

 

[Beowulf]

Are you familiar with the body CT Scan? Sounds so wonderful - it could even detect cancer at its early stage so why not implement for everyone? I want one myself too as it would be so cool to see my internal body.

But it comes with a real problem. The cost of false positives remains way too high, harming MORE patients than saving lives and costing more. Most people have slight abnormalities and tumors that are absolutely harmless. In the near future, we will have better technology to detect dangerous tumors and be able to combine with blood tests to better determine if the tumor is malignant or not. We're consistently looking for ways to find biomarkers that are generated when cancer is present.

It takes a while but we'll get there but the reality is that right now, it's not effective. You may hear PERSONAL stories of people who were saved by early detection BUT you have to look at the whole picture - what about patients who received false positives and were harmed and even died?

A couple years ago I saw four different doctors before one decided to put me into a CT scan, and it saved my life. That is all that matters to me.

 

[Bottesini]

H1N1 vaccines are available in my area and my physician will administer them to *anyone* now that there are mores supplies. Free clinics have the vaccine and will administer them to anyone as well. If you haven't been vaccinated yet, now's a great time. Even if you think that you've already had the swine flu (mild case), the clinics are still recommending that you get vaccinated. The virus may mutate in the spring and you will be protected. Stay healthy everyone. [/mom advice]

That is what happened to us today. We got the shot even though we thought we might have had a mild case, but they gave them to us, in case it was not, we have tiny grandchildren, and I have bad heart and asthma, plus my husband had a heart attack several years ago and is around the baby too.

So I guess we are as safe as we can be.

 

[sallylou]

I'm glad that you got your vaccination, Botti. It's protection for everyone.

 

[netrox]

Again, it's all "personal" to you without regard for others and yourself as well and that's really sad. It's like gambling - you think you'll win but in reality, the house wins regardless of HOW you win or lose. The house never loses - NEVER as long as the rules stay the same.

FDA explains why it doesn't approve CT scan for preventive purposes.

"At this time the FDA knows of no data demonstrating that whole-body CT screening is effective in detecting any particular disease early enough for the disease to be managed, treated, or cured and advantageously spare a person at least some of the detriment associated with serious illness or premature death."

Not only FDA not approve it, all major medical organizations don't recommend it either:

"Public health agencies and national medical and professional societies-the American College of Radiology, the American College of Cardiology / American Heart Association, the American Association of Physicists in Medicine, the Health Physics Society, the Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality's U.S. Preventive Services Task Force, and the American Medical Association - do not recommend CT screening."

Computed Tomography (CT)

 

[Lighthouse77]

My goodness, is everyone's health like a chess play? Why does this reminds me of War?

 

[Reba]

I would think it's unfair but unlike you, I believe in prioritories for the society.

How very judgmental of you. Go on...

When I am 75 demanding vaccine when statistics say that my death is near anytime and the young is more likely to be infected and die, then I am actually being selfish.

Why do you think you will be near death at age 75? Lots of people live healthy lives beyond age 75 years.

Are you presuming that future supplies of vaccines will be as poorly planned for and distributed as they are now? So if the government health plan passes, things won't be any better in the future?

My life would be more completed by then and I don't see WHY i should demand it when others really need it more. Personally, I don't want to die even in old age but that's the way it is. It's about having a moral and civic duty for the society. Nothing's fair, didn't I tell you?

Who said anything about demanding?

If you (or anyone) wants to voluntarily give up his shot, that's fine. But should the government make that decision?

For some diseases at certain ages, yes, definitely silly.

Until we come up with extremely cheap effective ways to detect diseases *accurately*, it is not cost effective for many things at this point. We're still working on refining medical detections and making them cheaper and safer.

So you would want the government to decide which people are worth enough to pay for tests that would detect their diseases early enough to cure them?

So the women whose lives were saved by early mammograms aren't worth the cost? I think they and their families would be to differ.

We have yearly blood work and the blood work is highly effective at detecting many diseases, even several types of cancer can be detected indirectly through blood work. Blood test is highly effective and cheap because if there is some abnormalities, we can quickly know something's not right.

But it is NOT cost effective to make women get mammogram at say age 30. Mammograms are NOT cheap and has harmed and even killed more false positives at that age.

False positives have killed women? Can you please document that statement?

What about those who ACTUALLY had breast cancer? It doesn't matter. For every life saved, a couple of lives were lost or harmed. Take my mother for example, she got mammogram and was told she has a "tumor" so she had biopsy. For two years, she had pain in her breast. Turns out that there was a needle left inside her breast! Had to go through surgery again. That is an example of how a person's life is harmed through false-positives.

I'm sorry about your mom but she wasn't harmed by a false positive test. She was harmed by a surgeon's carelessness during the biopsy procedure.

Also, I had way too many false-positives after melanoma hit me. I was fed up with doctors removing moles that were absolutely unnecessary. Melanoma is NOT cancer that's "hidden" - if you have melanoma, you see changes in moles. It's been 8 years now and I am still fine. I still shudder at the medical costs being wasted for nothing and risking skin infections, especially done in hospitals!

I'm sorry that you had to go thru that but how would you feel if the doctors overlooked a cancerous mole?

HIV testing is another example. It makes no sense to test every American for HIV if you calculate the cost of HIV test and having people show up with false positives. It's more effective to talk to patients about their risk factors and test them if their risk factors demand them.

I don't think every American is currently tested for HIV on a routine basis.

People ignore the doctors' "talk" on risk factors. Patients can lie about their risky behaviors but a blood test (with follow up) is more reliable.

 

[Lighthouse77]

yes, there are alot more people who don't get HIV testing, I never had one except when I was pregnant. I don't know anyone who routinely get HIV testing unless they request it. And most don't unless they feel it they have a good reason... you act like everyone is doing it, but the reality is that people don't like going to doctors, needles, and tests. They avoid it like a plague. Because of this, they waited too long to be checked out to the point that they end up in the ER.

 

[Aleser]

There is not strictly anyone -preventing- people who are older than 65 from getting novel h1n1 shots: they can, when there's enough supply to give them to the general public, and there isn't right now.

We already know that people who are 65 and older are at a much lower risk of contracting, experiencing complications, or dying from novel h1n1.

They're still in the priority group for the seasonal flu shots, which they ARE more likely than younger people to die from.

There's not enough vaccine to go around. It would be utterly stupid to vaccinate the group at the medically lowest risks when there's not enough vaccine yet to vaccinate those at the highest risk- younger people, especially those with chronic conditions, pregnant women, and healthcare workers who can spread the virus to at-risk patients and create huge shortages in doctors and nurses out sick during flu season.

The overwhelming majority of people to die from novel h1n1 are under 65- a complete contrast to the typical seasonal flu. It has nothing to do with financially motivated rationing or a lack of compassion from doctors. The compassionate thing as well as the financially responsible thing to do is prevent high risk young people from dying as opposed to vaccinating lower-risk elderly people. That's just life.

 

[netrox]

How very judgmental of you. Go on...

How do you judge then?

Why do you think you will be near death at age 75? Lots of people live healthy lives beyond age 75 years.

I agree, LOTS of people live beyond 75 years. No argument BUT when you make a decision on a macro level, you do have to include the averages.

Are you presuming that future supplies of vaccines will be as poorly planned for and distributed as they are now? So if the government health plan passes, things won't be any better in the future?

Not sure where you think I Said that. If we're having vaccine shortages, we do need to make decisions based on what we know about the illness that the vaccine is supposed to cover.

For example, smallpox vaccine is never recommended at this point. Why? It carries more risk of serious health problems. The same can be said for rabies too. They only vaccinate what they believe should get them based on their risk factors such as military and vets.

Who said anything about demanding?

Those people are. I understand they are frightened by the idea of swine flu but they are NOT at high risk of dying from it compared to the young. Flu's no picnic for anyone.

If you (or anyone) wants to voluntarily give up his shot, that's fine. But should the government make that decision?

Yes, if we're seriously short on vaccines, yes. It's a public concern.

So you would want the government to decide which people are worth enough to pay for tests that would detect their diseases early enough to cure them?

It all depends on the cost and the effectiveness of treatment/cure for that disease. There's always a limit to everything, including how much we can afford to treat. When we have public option, we make a collective decision.

So the women whose lives were saved by early mammograms aren't worth the cost? I think they and their families would be to differ.

You are forgetting that more people were harmed by early mammograms than those being saved.

False positives have killed women? Can you please document that statement?

You think biopsies are safe? X-rays are safe? They are not something to be taken lightly.

I'm sorry about your mom but she wasn't harmed by a false positive test. She was harmed by a surgeon's carelessness during the biopsy procedure.

Thanks but she was harmed AS a result of a false-positive, just like many women have lost their breasts or became ill because of false positives.

I'm sorry that you had to go thru that but how would you feel if the doctors overlooked a cancerous mole?

I'd be pissed off but melanoma is quite distinctive from normal moles - they tend to be irregular, highly discolored, and flat (just like mine) in the beginning. Sadly, way too many people died of melanoma just because they overlooked obvious changes in their moles.

Also, my risk factors are well established for melanoma - I'm fair skinned, had a share of heavy sun exposure, and took some medications that are known to cause skin cancer. I was stunned because I was only 32 which is statistically a rarity but it happened to me.

Now, since I am a rarity, should I demand that EVERY conceivable test be done on me to make sure I don't have any kinds of cancer? No.

I don't think every American is currently tested for HIV on a routine basis.

Of course not and the reason is?

People ignore the doctors' "talk" on risk factors. Patients can lie about their risky behaviors but a blood test (with follow up) is more reliable.

That is true that some people lie to their doctors but that should teach a lesson for patients - if you lie, you may die.

 

[KristinaB]

A person who has asthma can have the vaccine injection, if they do not have an allergy to anything in the vaccine. People with asthma were the first group of people to get the vaccine injections. People with asthma are at higher risk for respiratory complications from influenza. A person with asthma cannot have the nasal spray vaccination. My 8 YO has asthma and he had the injection. No problems at all.

As Lighthouse said, if someone cannot have the vaccine for medical reasons, family members should be vaccinated to protect this person, especially if this person has asthma. Everyone in our family gets vaccinated every year asap to protect my kid with asthma. He's never had the flu, for which I am very grateful.

There are days when I wish we could get vaccinated, but we can't. Son has asthma and he and I have many, many allergies. We can't get vaccine even though there is no egg allergy. I had severe reaction to the seasonal flu shot and had to be hospitalized and almost died. Son is like me with allergies and we didn't want to take a chance. Doctor agreed with my reasoning. Son also has never had the flu and only minor colds 3 times in 14 years. His biggest problems have been many many ear infections.

 

[netrox]

This is a PERFECT example of how early mammogram may harm women under 30 and not recommended:

"Low-dose radiation from mammograms and chest X-rays may increase the risk of breast cancer in young women who are already at high risk because of family history or genetic susceptibility, Dutch researchers said on Tuesday."

Mammogram Radiation May Put Some Women at Risk - ABC News

Also note this:

"Last month, the U.S. Preventive Services Task Force, a federal advisory panel, recommended against routine breast mammograms for women in their 40s to spare them some of the worry and expense of extra tests to distinguish between cancer and harmless lumps.

Those recommendations contradicted years of messages about the need for routine breast cancer screening starting at age 40, sparking a rebellion from breast cancer specialists who argued the guidelines would confuse women and result in more deaths form breast cancer.

Robert Smith, director of cancer screening from the American Cancer Society, said the study by Jansen-van der Weide is an important area of investigation. "We know that breast tissue is susceptible to the harmful effects of radiation when women are at a young age, and that this risk diminishes as women age," Smith said in an e-mail."

and it ends: "Although MRIs alone are more sensitive than mammograms, they are also more likely to turn up false-positive results."

 

[deafdude1]

There are days when I wish we could get vaccinated, but we can't. Son has asthma and he and I have many, many allergies. We can't get vaccine even though there is no egg allergy. I had severe reaction to the seasonal flu shot and had to be hospitalized and almost died. Son is like me with allergies and we didn't want to take a chance. Doctor agreed with my reasoning. Son also has never had the flu and only minor colds 3 times in 14 years. His biggest problems have been many many ear infections.

This is one reason im afraid to risk getting the vaccine. I have no allergies but never know how ill react to a vaccine ive never gotten before. There's still a shortage of h1n1(swine flu) vaccines and ive read that the number of swine flu cases is half of peak and still dropping. Might never need a vaccine at this point

 

[saywhatkid]

Maybe I should volunteer to be stricken with the virus. That way, I can provide some possible vaccines by using my antibodies. I would consider this for, say, $50 and a tank of gasoline. Let's not have an age thing decide who gets vaccinated. Let's sell those vaccines to the highest bidder. All the profits can be donated to the Palin for President campaign.

 

[Lighthouse77]

or let people decide for themselves. Fear already kept people from taking it so there should be plenty for people who do want to take it. I never understood the purpose of mandatory.