North Tower Exploding on 9-11

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Those passengers had no practice. They did not plan to fly.
but... that contradicts with your previous post -

What is so idiotic about it? I have heard of people with ZERO pilot training fly and land a plane with voice instructions. It is rare, but it happens.

Besides, they were probably involved in a fight to the death with terrorists.
There were dozens of passengers. You only need 1 passenger to take control of airplane.

Ever try to drive with a bunch of guys trying to slit your throat?
other way around - the terrorists were trying to fly a plane with a bunch of heroic passengers trying to kill them.
 
but... that contradicts with your previous post -

They had nobody instructing them. No guide from the sky.


There were dozens of passengers. You only need 1 passenger to take control of airplane.

Who knows what the scene looked like. I assume is was complete bedlam. Think yelling fire in a crowded theater x 10

other way around - the terrorists were trying to fly a plane with a bunch of heroic passengers trying to kill them.

And they failed.
 
the crash in PA was the result of heroic passengers sacrificing their lives to prevent terrorists from achieving their plot. They knew very well that it means death. I salute to them.

now you see that even a passenger can't safely fly the plane after disabling terrorists?

Ummm, the plane came down in two parts, 8 miles apart.
A Free Press for a Free People
 
The main differences between flying a Cessna 172 (or most light GA aircraft) and a Boeing 757/767 are the systems and obviously the size & mass. However, the basic flying principles are still very much the same. While the 767 uses FMS (Flight Management System) for primary navigational purposes (inputting waypoints & making calculations etc) it's still possible to navigate via VOR and also by using visual references. The heading can also be adjusted and maintained in a similar way. These principles are taught at PPL level (Private pilot) and it is relatively basic stuff. The control column and rudder in a 757/767 operate exactly the same as they do in GA aircraft too. Therefore, anyone with sufficient training at PPL level should be able to perform basic navigation techniques and manoeuvres in a Boeing 757/767 without having to spend much time specifically studying the 757/767 controls & systems. It's not as though the Boeing 757/767 uses glass cockpit technology or anything!

The autopilot system is totally different though. However, to make adjustments to the heading, altitude and indicated air speed, you only have to turn three knobs on the MCP. (one for each) How hard can that be? It's pretty intuitive for anyone with a basic understanding. Also, the throttle quadrant becomes pretty much redundant when A/T is engaged, especially during flight, so they didn't need to worry about that. (Though they need to be retarded upon landing) This sort of information is well documented. I've no doubt that these highly intelligent terrorists would be able to perform this after simply studying the aircraft manual & documentation.

A student private pilot who enters the cockpit of an airliner will most likely be overwhelmed by the amount of switches and knobs available to them. In comparison, a Cessna 152/172 doesn't even have a quarter of the number of switches/knobs. However, one can easily familiarise themselves with the 757/767 flight deck by studying the respective flight manual. They will soon discover that most of the switches/knobs are redundant for their needs. Especially when you don't need to make a departure or prepare for an ILS approach or even a landing! (That's the more tricky stuff which the terrorists didn't even need to do!)

There's a number of things the terrorists would have been unable to do. AFAIK, none of them had any IFR training other than simple navigational techniques. If the weather or visibility was poor, they would have been MUCH less likely to pull this off. In addition, without sufficient practice in the respective aircraft, it's also unlikely that they would be able to make a successful landing. Taking off could also be a problem (depending on runway length & aircraft mass) because they would be unlikely to know how to calculate V speeds. The engines are automatically de-rated. Therefore, those calculations and configurations are very important. All of this is what most airline pilots spend most of their training on. The terrorists didn't need to know ANY of that in order to carry out their mission.

I trained for several months in a Cessna 152, 172 and also in a Piper Warrior. When I "flew" in a real life 757 Level D simulator in London, I was amazed by how much I was able to do with the knowledge I attained from my training in a GA aircraft. That said, actually landing a 757 Level D sim was another matter altogether. But in this case, the terrorists didn't need to know how to do that either, did they?

So yeah, I don't think it was impossible for the terrorists to do what they did. That said, it wouldn't have been plain sailing. There's many factors that could have doomed their plan. Though, they did have a lot of time to plan for it!
 
The FBI. It was technologically impossible to have made the calls back then.
When the FBI says that there were no drones or missiles involved on 9/11, do you believe that?
 
They had nobody instructing them. No guide from the sky.
Use headphone to talk to air controller?

Who knows what the scene looked like. I assume is was complete bedlam. Think yelling fire in a crowded theater x 10
It wasn't a panicked attack. The passengers agreed together to take action. That's why they made good-bye phone calls prior to attacking terrorists. It was very sad :(

The entire incident was recorded by cockpit voice recorder.

And they failed.
no they didn't. They succeeded. They saved White House or Congress.
 
The main differences between flying a Cessna 172 (or most light GA aircraft) and a Boeing 757/767 are the systems and obviously the size & mass. However, the basic flying principles are still very much the same. While the 767 uses FMS (Flight Management System) for primary navigational purposes (inputting waypoints & making calculations etc) it's still possible to navigate via VOR and also by using visual references. The heading can also be adjusted and maintained in a similar way. These principles are taught at PPL level (Private pilot) and it is relatively basic stuff. The control column and rudder in a 757/767 operate exactly the same as they do in GA aircraft too. Therefore, anyone with sufficient training at PPL level should be able to perform basic navigation techniques and manoeuvres in a Boeing 757/767 without having to spend much time specifically studying the 757/767 controls & systems. It's not as though the Boeing 757/767 uses glass cockpit technology or anything!

The autopilot system is totally different though. However, to make adjustments to the heading, altitude and indicated air speed, you only have to turn three knobs on the MCP. (one for each) How hard can that be? It's pretty intuitive for anyone with a basic understanding. Also, the throttle quadrant becomes pretty much redundant when A/T is engaged, especially during flight, so they didn't need to worry about that. (Though they need to be retarded upon landing) This sort of information is well documented. I've no doubt that these highly intelligent terrorists would be able to perform this after simply studying the aircraft manual & documentation.

A student private pilot who enters the cockpit of an airliner will most likely be overwhelmed by the amount of switches and knobs available to them. In comparison, a Cessna 152/172 doesn't even have a quarter of the number of switches/knobs. However, one can easily familiarise themselves with the 757/767 flight deck by studying the respective flight manual. They will soon discover that most of the switches/knobs are redundant for their needs. Especially when you don't need to make a departure or prepare for an ILS approach or even a landing! (That's the more tricky stuff which the terrorists didn't even need to do!)

There's a number of things the terrorists would have been unable to do. AFAIK, none of them had any IFR training other than simple navigational techniques. If the weather or visibility was poor, they would have been MUCH less likely to pull this off. In addition, without sufficient practice in the respective aircraft, it's also unlikely that they would be able to make a successful landing. Taking off could also be a problem (depending on runway length & aircraft mass) because they would be unlikely to know how to calculate V speeds. The engines are automatically de-rated. Therefore, those calculations and configurations are very important. All of this is what most airline pilots spend most of their training on. The terrorists didn't need to know ANY of that in order to carry out their mission.

I trained for several months in a Cessna 152, 172 and also in a Piper Warrior. When I "flew" in a real life 757 Level D simulator in London, I was amazed by how much I was able to do with the knowledge I attained from my training in a GA aircraft. That said, actually landing a 757 Level D sim was another matter altogether. But in this case, the terrorists didn't need to know how to do that either, did they?

So yeah, I don't think it was impossible for the terrorists to do what they did. That said, it wouldn't have been plain sailing. There's many factors that could have doomed their plan. Though, they did have a lot of time to plan for it!

I will point out errors at later time.
 
The FBI. It was technologically impossible to have made the calls back then.

False.....I was using airphones way before then. However, I tend to agree with you on Flt 93. Surprise!
 
Why? Just curious ...

Too me it seem contrived....kind of like The Movie "Wag The Dog". Remember in the movie how the created the song. "Good ol' Shu/shoe" but in this case we get "Let's Roll".

Also I (like Beo) have serious issues with the debris field. and the coverage from the crash site. Plus....how convenient that it was in the middle of nowhere.

Now, I am not saying I would bet the farm on it. But....I think there is a good chance we did. Where Beo and I differ is I don't think we shot it down as part of a plot.....I think we did it out of necessity.....but our leaders didn't have the heart to tell us. :dunno:
 
Don't bother. This site does an admirable job of debunking his post.
http://www.911myths.com/Another_Expert.pdf

It's funny how you say it's admirable considering you clearly haven't even read more than the first two pages. Had you read it in its entirety, you would have noticed that all of the conspiracy arguments were in fact debunked within the document itself!!! (Refer to the text in bold within the actual report) The counter arguments are in-line with everything I said. I don't see why I should have bothered to read all 13 pages when you clearly haven't even read the first 2. I agree entirely with the counter arguments provided within the document you supplied. Thanks for saving me the effort of having to write a counter argument!

Perhaps you should actually bother to read it yourself though. The person who debunked these false conspiracy theories explained it much better than I could have done.


arrange trips for you.... not look up flight schedules in advance. beside - it's amazing they're able to pull it off with 4 planes because of our shoddy airline system with dozens of delays.

You're getting confused with terminology here. Yes, one may find out flight schedules in advance. Some flight schedules have been operating consistently for many years. I.e. there's a daily flight with British Airways from LHR to JFK. (for example) Anyone can obtain that information. What I think you're actually referring to here is the actual flight plan itself. (not the same as a flight schedule) An IFR flight plan consists of waypoints which the plane intends to fly to. The waypoints collectively make up a "route". Sure, flight plans differ from flight to flight (operating on the same schedule) due to restrictions & weather. However, they will often be very similar in the sense that they won't usually deviate significantly, especially for shorter flights.

Here's what a short IFR flight plan looks like. You can see the waypoint names under "route"

ICAO-FP.gif
 
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