Non-Deaf children who sign.......

ismi said:
Quick offtopic here: is it common for a tracheotomy (assuming that we're talking about the same expansion of trach) to impair a person's ability to talk? I ask because several of my friends have trachs, but only one can't speak, and I had not realized it was due to the trach.
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:topic: I just read up on it and unless they are on a ventilator, one can usually talk. In some cases, a person needs to sometime learn how to speak with a tracheotomy.

Check this link tracheotomy
 
PSE is Pidgin Signed English. It is ASL signs in an English word order.

If you're signing and using your voice at the same time, you will have to use PSE or SEE, but SEE is too tedious to sign for a lot of people (you have to sign or fingerspell EVERYTHING) and the signs are different from ASL.

If you use PSE, you can communicate with most deaf signers because the signs are the same as ASL's. I recommend learning both--the only difference is in the grammar.
 
trachs, delays b/c of illness....

Most 3 yo's, yes - would use more than a handful of signs. But this little guy isn't yet 3. Plus he was born at 25 wks, weighing only a pound. He's still catching up. Plus he's been sick - very sick, his whole life. He's more like an 18 m.o. socially, playwise, etc. He's mentally normal - just needs some time to catch up.

Trach'ed kids often are fitted with a "speaking valve" AKA passy-muir valve. This lets them speak. If they are on a ventilator, the circuit (air hose that provides breathes) and the valve need to be in place. Once the circuit comes off (like to be suctioned) - they are mute. However, he may be losing his trach in a few months (we hope!). However, even if he can lose his trach and use his upper airways to breathe.....there is still the (severely) scarred vocal cords to deal with. He *might* be able to speak (maybe) but the doctor's are not promising anything.

We want him to be able to communicate regardless - whether or not he is ever able to verbalize, and we don't want to wait. Hence, he's learning sign.

As for which sign - I don't think "which" system is something the parents have considered yet. When we began - I really didn't realize there WAS different systems....I assumed what we were doing was ASL. I'm thinking now what we are doing is probably PSE(contact?) sign because we are using (standard english) word order and just not fussing with the linking words - plus using facial expression and body language.

Anyway, we just all (parents and the two main nurses) knew he needed something better than the stupid "tech talk". Hated that thing. Half the time it didn't work, plus he regarded it as a game rather than a way to speak. I tried to use it - but kept falling back to sign (I had learned a few "baby signs") because with sign it worked immediately every time, and the equipment is always there and functional (right there at the end of your arms!) and can be easily cleaned with purell and shaken dry.

by the way - thank you everyone for all your suggestions, help and comments. EVERYBODY - thank you.
 
Check out all your options..........

lowderra,

Are you and the parents aware of a system that addresses language, communication and diversity? This system is Cued English/Cued Speech.

Have the parents considered about how to teach him to read and write English?

My concern with PSE which, imho, is what you get from many non-native ASLers', is that it does not support what the child sees and hears. It also is not complete language. Basically incomplete language in = incomplete language out. This is something that really has an enoumous impact on language development now and in the future, as the most opportune time for a child to learn language is prior to age 6.

There is a program in my area, that is implementing CE/CS with the trach children. Most families here use English, although CS does transfer to many other languages, the philosophy being, language of the family for inclusion at home and the community.

Here is the website of the National Cued SPeech Association and some info on the mutiple uses of CS:

http://www.cuedspeech.org/default.asp

Multiple Uses of Cued Speech

Cued Speech was created for use by families of children who are deaf or hard of hearing. Cued Speech provides cued listening, cued phonemes, cued languages, and cued speechreading. Research and experience have proven the benefits of Cued Speech use for people who are deaf or hard of hearing in the development of

speechreading
speech
language
reading skills.
Speech-language pathologists and special educators saw the results of Cued Speech use with children with hearing loss and began the expansion of its use to children and adults with other needs. These individuals may have no disabilities or may have one or more disabilities, including but not limited to:

auditory neuropathy / dys-synchrony
autism
apraxia
cerebral palsy
deaf-blindness
developmental disabilities
learning disabilities.
Cued Speech is the unique link in sensory integration, bringing together sound, sight, kinesthesia, and motor movement at the phonemic level of language in any setting. Children and adults with and without hearing loss benefit from the multi-sensory nature of Cued Speech for a variety of purposes, such as

phonemic stimulation for listening, speech, language and literacy
presenting phonics to beginning readers
learning the phonemes of an added spoken language
speech instruction for articulation and disfluencies
language development
auditory discrimination and processing
oral-motor patterning
and more…
The following articles describe in more depth some of the many uses of Cued Speech:


Speech-Language Pathologist Uses Cued Speech for Hearing Children By Anne Marie Dziekonski
Cued Speech for Special Children By Pamela Beck
Cued Speech and Autism, Pervasive Developmental Disorders By Pamela Beck
Cued Speech and Down Syndrome By Pamela Beck
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http://www.cuedspeech.org/sub/cued/uses.asp
 
Suggest you may contuine ASL as much eaiser to understanding easy tools as ASL communcation a child..

Likely:
Milk
Water
Drink
food
Anything simple words teach sign.. what you want say something respond to you from a child..

Important eye visual see sign langauges ASL.. will delvop improve and will change English Grammer.. keep contuine ASL.

Wishes you have great luck!

I met few austim children and trying to communcation w/Hearing parents. Hearing parents saw us while My hubby and I were converstation.. They were apporched and begged asked me how can I teach my austic child. I'm very surprised touched my heart.. Yes Im happy to.. I came and say Hi.. (ASL) Kid looked at me.. *smiled* Guess what, They were shocked and happy joyed.. I gave them instruction where best place at Deaf School.. They are hoping their child will devloping learning sign languages. Few wks later, They bumped into us again.. said thanked to us so big time and warm invite us as chatting... We were speechless.. I saw the child.. begans say.. FOOD FOOD FOOD.. Parent was so happy and say YES.. bring food their child.

Worth it easy children use ASL first lanagues.. will delvop later become better english depend Austic children will adapt learn quicker or not..vary so many different children.
 
ASL as first language and unique writing style....

Galaxy Angel - I get the idea that if.....I fluently used ASL, and we were sitting signing to each other.....that everything you said would make sense. Fluidly, beautifully, VISUALLY. However. This child can hear. He's not dependent on visuals.

Most of the people that this child will spend his time and his life around don't know ASL and are not going to learn it. (Is that right? Fair to him? Probably not - but it's the reality. He's lucky that his family is motivated to learn to sign - some blow it off. I swear.) He's a hearing child, in a hearing family, living in a hearing world. From what I am learning about ASL - the vocabulary and signs are largely similar to PSE. It's just the word order is COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY different.

So if we use ASL........I'm thinking we'll have to speak, then sign (no way will I be able to sign a sentence with different word order *while* speaking - I'd get a terrible headache and probably confuse both of us.) but there is another, greater problem.

Reading and writing. I'm *guessing* (please correct me if I'm wrong) from the unique writing style and use of grammer that you use (I'm not calling it wrong - it's just definitely different) that you probably learned ASL before you started reading and writing. Which probably made "standard" English grammer and word order completely alien to you. I'm also going to guess that on standardized tests for English language usage - you probably have an incredibly hard time.

Now. All that would BE WORTH IT....if he were deaf, and if he were going to be educated around other deaf children, marry and live in the deaf community. But there is no reason he would. He can hear. The only thing missing is a voice. I'm guessing he may even elect to stop signing once he learns to type and gets voice technology.

I guess what I'm saying is.....I'm pretty sure we don't want to set him up for a lifelong struggle with grammer. I find it confusing to read sentences that are set up or signed "backward". They aren't backward to you, or other people who use ASL - but for the non-signing (majority of the world still!) it seems backward and difficult to understand.

I agree that sign can totally change the parent/child relationship with autistic children who are non-verbal. And thank you for your insight.
 
Just because someone can hear doesn't mean they need to depend on it all the time. I can depend on either my eyes or my ears for communication, depending on who I'm talking to. Are you trying to do just the minimum required or what here? It looks that way to me. :squint:

Signing is a form of verbal communication because the signs are words.

And by the way, I am autistic and use my voice (2 oral languages) and can sign ASL fluently.
 
loml said:
lowderra,

Are you and the parents aware of a system that addresses language, communication and diversity? This system is Cued English/Cued Speech.
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Since when is ASL not a language? There are lots of different languages in the world, and not all of them are oral. Wouldn't it be more useful to learn to sign a real language than to learn
loml said:
Have the parents considered about how to teach him to read and write English?
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That is useful for anyone, esp. if sighted. So why are you against this for deaf people?
loml said:
My concern with PSE which, imho, is what you get from many non-native ASLers', is that it does not support what the child sees and hears. It also is not complete language. Basically incomplete language in = incomplete language out. This is something that really has an enoumous impact on language development now and in the future, as the most opportune time for a child to learn language is prior to age 6.
Click to expand...
PSE is a variation of a complete language, ASL. What is your obsession with hearing, anyway?
loml said:
There is a program in my area, that is implementing CE/CS with the trach children. Most families here use English, although CS does transfer to many other languages, the philosophy being, language of the family for inclusion at home and the community.
Click to expand...
Cued Speech is designed for teaching deaf people to speak. FYI, the boy can already hear.

What is wrong with teaching the boy multiple languages? It is one of the greatest gifts a parent can give their children, but no, I keep seeing ways to avoid learning another language here. WHY???
 
cued speech

I believe the parents looked into cued speech. Problems with that (for him)....

1) not widely used (it's like Esperanto again - no matter how GOOD the language is....if no one you know uses it it's useless.)

2) he may lose the trach. (which is why we can't train him with a passey-muir - without a trach you can't use a passy-muir to speak.)

3) NO ability to speak......even if/when he loses the trach it's pretty likely that his vocal cords will be too scarred to speak.

4) it's primary benefit it to teach phonics and standard english (and grammer and word order) to kids who can't hear. He CAN hear. And he hears English (and excellent grammer) all day long. We aren't anticipating difficulties teaching reading/writing - we use lots of books here and again.....he CAN hear.

Primary need for him from the beginning of the whole "how will he communicate?" road was to get a system that would work, immediately and well. Why invest years in learning a system when he needs to communicate now? And there is always the (remote) possibility that he MIGHT be able to speak after all. So we were looking at "now, right now" solutions. Sign worked. Now we are looking at another 6 months of having the trach in (it was supposed to come out this summer) and we are now dealing with a kid stringing sentences together (2 months ago it was just one word requests/commands) and we have to figure out not only HOW to string them together - but the long term ramifications of which method we decide to go with.

There is a lot more at stake now. We know where we started, we don't quite know where we are going to end up, or even when we'll get there!

KWIM?
 
lowderra said:
As for which sign - I don't think "which" system is something the parents have considered yet. When we began - I really didn't realize there WAS different systems....I assumed what we were doing was ASL. I'm thinking now what we are doing is probably PSE(contact?) sign because we are using (standard english) word order and just not fussing with the linking words - plus using facial expression and body language.
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Yes, that was Pidgin Sign English (PSE), or Contact Sign. ASL has a completely different grammar, but ASL signers can understand it because it uses exactly the same vocabulary. That's why I think it's a better choice than SEE or cued speech. SEE uses completely different signs for a lot of words, and Cued Speech is for teaching oral speech to deaf people.

Plus, if he can master PSE, learning proper ASL isn't that hard because the only differences are in word order and grammar.
 
gnulinuxman said:
Yes, that was Pidgin Sign English (PSE), or Contact Sign. ASL has a completely different grammar, but ASL signers can understand it because it uses exactly the same vocabulary. That's why I think it's a better choice than SEE or cued speech. SEE uses completely different signs for a lot of words, and Cued Speech is for teaching oral speech to deaf people.

Plus, if he can master PSE, learning proper ASL isn't that hard because the only differences are in word order and grammar.
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I think you are missing that the boy can hear. What are the likelyhood that he's going to encounter ASL signers throughout his life? lowderra states that. He's going to have other technologies to help him communicate with others. What are the likelyhood that I use sign as a deaf person? Zero. Nobody uses signs, and it's so rare that a person knows the language.

I really don't believe this boy needs to learn ASL. If he wants to later in life, then so be it. High school offers those classes. Right now, the importance is how he communicates with his parents. The boy needs a system to express himself in English right now in PSE or SEE because that's what he'll be learning and hearing everyday. His parents will not need to use PSE or SEE later on as the boy become fluent with PSE or SEE because he'll hear them, but they need to use it now to show him how to sign. The problem is the boy's communication. To make it easier on the educators and parents, it makes a lot of sense to use PSE or SEE.

lowderra, Cued Speech is not hard to learn either. Cued Speech has 8 handshapes that you can learn in about a week (yes!). The boy can modulate the words while using Cued Speech near his face. That's not hard to learn either. Cued Speech can be used to show what you're saying with any words and language. It's not limited to just English, so if he wants to say a french word, he can say so with Cued Speech.

I think lowderra is thinking about this really well thinking of the boy's needs and his future. Don't let anyone confuse you. I think you're on the right track knowing about the boy's case better than I could help originally. I had a lot of questions that I couldn't just say SEE or ASL. I think PSE is the best choice unless you might consider Cued Speech.
 
Thank you lowderra! CS is not used too commonly. It IS like Esperanto! (ie out there, but not used all that much, compared to Sign and speech)
guess what I'm saying is.....I'm pretty sure we don't want to set him up for a lifelong struggle with grammer.
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Yes, but he has a receptive language model to work from. He's exposed to spoken English! This is just giving him a way to talk!!!!!!!!!!
It would be like.....a billingal kid asking his father in English where to get apples, and him responding in Spanish. I mean there's no worry with those Tech Talkers that their speech won't develop, right?
 
It doesn't matter if Cued Speech is like Esperanto. Cued Speech is NOT a language. Cued Speech is a tool to show you what a person is saying using 8 phonetics handshapes even in any language. It's easy to learn. It has no barrier, except not everyone will use it plus it is the same with ASL. Not everyone uses ASL either.

Many times it's recommended that children of other countries speak English at home instead of their foreign language to master their English skills. Besides, the child is likely to use signs less as he grows older because of voice technology. Why spend extra time learning something that's likely not going to be used later anymore?
 
gnulinuxman said:
Since when is ASL not a language? There are lots of different languages in the world, and not all of them are oral. Wouldn't it be more useful to learn to sign a real language than to learn
That is useful for anyone, esp. if sighted. So why are you against this for deaf people?
PSE is a variation of a complete language, ASL. What is your obsession with hearing, anyway?
Cued Speech is designed for teaching deaf people to speak. FYI, the boy can already hear.

What is wrong with teaching the boy multiple languages? It is one of the greatest gifts a parent can give their children, but no, I keep seeing ways to avoid learning another language here. WHY???
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GNU,

My interpretation, from the way you slice and dice my inputs, is that you do not have the faintest understanding of my position on anything.

Until you actually expand your mind and take a CE/CS course, this really is not going to move forward for either of us.

Until then.
 
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ClearSky said:
It doesn't matter if Cued Speech is like Esperanto. Cued Speech is NOT a language. Cued Speech is a tool to show you what a person is saying using 8 phonetics handshapes even in any language. It's easy to learn. It has no barrier, except not everyone will use it plus it is the same with ASL. Not everyone uses ASL either.

Many times it's recommended that children of other countries speak English at home instead of their foreign language to master their English skills. Besides, the child is likely to use signs less as he grows older because of voice technology. Why spend extra time learning something that's likely not going to be used later anymore?
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Absolutely! Even though not everyone use it, many people in North America and beyond use English. CE/CE teaches English or French or Hebrew or or or.......
 
lowderra
it's primary benefit it to teach phonics and standard english (and grammer and word order) to kids who can't hear. He CAN hear. And he hears English (and excellent grammer) all day long. We aren't anticipating difficulties teaching reading/writing - we use lots of books here and again.....he CAN hear
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The fact that he is hearing has does not mean cueing is not a viable option. Cueing gives multiple stimulations: visual, kinesthetic and auditory. Cueing addresses all learning styles.

also.....

lowderra
There is a lot more at stake now. We know where we started, we don't quite know where we are going to end up, or even when we'll get there!
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I understand that time and energy has been spent here, on everyones part. My question to you though is this, if he was your son, and there was another tool that could be added to his toolbox that may be of extreme benefit to him, would you learn it and share your skill with him?

jat
 
this has actually been really helpful

Actually, whether I agree with everyone, or whether you agree with me - this thread has been enormously helpful.

I think, after reading all the input - we'll stick with what we are doing. Which is basically PSE. I have Joy of Sign and ABC of ASL to work out of, and I think we'll focus on vocabulary and ditch the linking words and ignore word endings for now.

With this base, he'll be able to communicate, and with a rich vocabulary he'll be able to choose PSE, SEE, or ASL as he gets older. He'll have the vocab and just need to learn grammer and endings.

I think this will work best because multiple people have to learn sign (2 nurses, both parents, therapists, etc.)

I'll keep cued speech in mind - maybe in a year, when the trach is out and not so much of my shift is spent doing trach care, maintaining the central line, giving meds, etc. It's just right now we have to CHOOSE A FOCUS. And I think right now both he and his parents would prefer good communication between them.....to decided what is "best", "right", or "politically correct" or a "real language." Yes, I love him as if he were my own son, but we have to choose a workable solution for RIGHT NOW for him and his parents.

I look forward to chatting with all of you in the future, and again, your input has been immensely helpful. From me, my patient, and his family......

Thank you!
 
It seems to me that if he learns PSE, he can learn ASL later. In fact, it could even be a way for him to get his foreign language credit in high school or college. And if he does continue to practice some signing even after he turns to other means of communication, if he likes it he may have an advantage and be at the top of the class. :)

This is totally un-grounded advice because I'm not an expert, but I highly suggest exposing him to the written word as soon as you get communication going in a way that you can see will work well for both of you. Literacy will be of KEY importance and visual/writing exposure to grammatical concepts like articles and word endings early on would probably be very helpful.
 
Rose Immortal said:
It seems to me that if he learns PSE, he can learn ASL later. In fact, it could even be a way for him to get his foreign language credit in high school or college. And if he does continue to practice some signing even after he turns to other means of communication, if he likes it he may have an advantage and be at the top of the class. :)

This is totally un-grounded advice because I'm not an expert, but I highly suggest exposing him to the written word as soon as you get communication going in a way that you can see will work well for both of you. Literacy will be of KEY importance and visual/writing exposure to grammatical concepts like articles and word endings early on would probably be very helpful.
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:gpost: You have some very good ideas, RoseImmortal. I would agree literacy is key for anyone, especially him.
 
gnulinuxman said:
:gpost: You have some very good ideas, RoseImmortal. I would agree literacy is key for anyone, especially him.
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I guessed this particular one off of my own background. I am not dhh, but had problems with language acquisition because of severe ADHD. I got some vocabulary but had no command over grammar--not even simple concepts like the difference between a sentence and a question, or the differences between the pronouns. Basically I wasn't able to hold my attention on something long enough to pick up on those nuances. At least that's what we guess.

My mother had majored in early childhood education and picked up on it WAY before most parents ever would've known something was wrong. She started teaching me to read at 2 or 2 1/2, and the weirdest thing happened: for some reason reading made me sit down and concentrate! That gave me a way to put all of the concepts together. I still remember the book "He Bear, She Bear" that my mom used to teach me gender pronouns. The combination of hearing her read, seeing the words, and seeing the pictures did the trick. To this day I still frame my thoughts in written form first...THEN the little voice in my mind does the voice-over. ;)
 
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