MSNBC: Texas to let teachers bring guns to school

[Liebling:-)))]

It happens but it isn't a "common" occurrence in America.

Really? I guess it could be that you have a cold heart?

 

[jillio]

Yes stressful but manageable. we all have been in this kind of life-death situations many times in our life - driving, street, fighting, sports, etc. it's built into our survival instincts. you as the psychologist should know better about this. for this school shooting, armed teachers would be most likely required to undergo same training as police or air marshals. they can do it and so can we. if you can't, then you best stay behind me or chase or reba.

And, if you knew anything at all about psychology, you would understand that people under stress do not react with logic and forethought. If you don't see this as a problem, you quite obviously have no understanding of the psychodynamics at work in such a situation. It is a sad day indeed, when our teachers must become armed law enforcement officers rather than teachers. Especially when such occurs based on the paranoia of a few that propose a police state.
you do not trust armed citizen because of lack of awareness and understanding in this issue. In fact - pretty much.... say... more than 95% of cops in USA have not fired their guns in the line of duty.
Can you provide any form of support for that claim? And, I do not trust armed citizens because the majority are just as paranoid as you yourself are, thereby seeing danger at every turn. It makes them more likely to react without justifiable provocation.

And why would you say armed average citizen? You cannot have armed "average" teachers at school. that would create potential lawsuits issue and many concerns. That's why there would most likely be a strict guideline/requirement for such case. If the teacher is the same as armed "average" citizen, then I do not support this proposal at all. However - they are no different from regular cops either.

Then why arm teachers? Security personnel could be hired to do the job, and, in fact, have been hired to do the job in numerous school systems. Are you proposing protection, or just advocating for the right of anyone, anywhere to carry a concealed, lethal weapon? Teachers were not meant to be law enforcement officers.

absolutely not. sorry you do not have the rights to know. sorry but that defeats the element of surprise. do i have the rights to know you're walking around with AIDS or STD's? do i have the rights to know you have a history of mental illness? or criminal record (except sex offender)? because it is a danger to public, you know... :roll: again - probably more than 98% of armed citizens walking around with concealed guns have not fired their guns in the public for self-defense purpose.

Absolutely I have the right to know. And if you had any concept of civil rights you would understand that you cannot demand for yourself what you refuse to grant to another. And, again, support your claim with statistics. Otherwise, it is nothing more than you making up figures in an attempt to support your distorted view.
Again - this shows your lack of understanding in this issue - but it's understandable. we the gun owners will properly educate you on gun world.

I don't think you're aware of how fast you can unlock the gun safe. It's pretty fast - within about 3 seconds. and plus - it is very unlikely that the shooter would quickly do the shooting spree, running around. see below for gun safe. it's becoming pretty popular and has gotten excellent feedbacks. My friend owns one and it is very simple to use. i've tested it under duress in a stimulated scenario. outstanding gun safe.

Evidently, you haven't researched the school shooting incidents very thoroughly. I suggest you inform yourself before making such claims.[/COLOR

 

[jillio]

because it's a reasonable concern due to "rise" in school shootings and we must respond to it immediately. You can go ahead and implement some SES policy to fix this but we need a quick temporary fix. I'm sorry but 5 major school massacres (26 minor + major school shootings) in 10 years period is VERY ALARMING. If that is not a statistical proof enough for you - I suppose you will not fare well in a decision-making committee. In 10 years period - we have 100 dead. How many bodies do you need to establish a statistical proof? 1000? 10000? 10000000? :roll: 100 is already too much for me and we've had major school shootings year after year (almost). Does it not raise a concern for you? I'm beginning to be appalled by your callousness. :-o

It is not a reasonable concern, nor have you been able to provide any statistics that show it is a reasonable concern. It is an outgrowth of paranoia.

As of 1996-1997 (the most recent years for which statistics are available) there are 14,841 school districts in the United States. Even at the rate of 5 shootings per year in those districts, that would leave 14,836 districts that did not experience a school shooting. Please, please explain to me how that justifies teachers being armed. And I'm giving you a break, because the number of schools in those districts, and the increase in the number of schools would make you look like even more of a fool that these numbers do.

 

[Jiro]

It is not a reasonable concern, nor have you been able to provide any statistics that show it is a reasonable concern. It is an outgrowth of paranoia.

I think you're confusing "paranoia" with seeing some random middle eastern man with beard on the plane as a terrorist. No that's not what we're paranoid about. We're deeply concerned about our inability to stop the massacre. Hiring armed security guard may be impractical or cost ineffective for most schools - especially rural area or quiet area.

Like Chase said - the time has come... don't forget - this is not a permanent solution.

 

[jillio]

I think you're confusing "paranoia" with seeing some random middle eastern man with beard on the plane as a terrorist. No that's not what we're paranoid about. We're deeply concerned about our inability to stop the massacre. Hiring armed security guard may be impractical or cost ineffective for most schools - especially rural area or quiet area.

Like Chase said - the time has come... don't forget - this is not a permanent solution.

Please see the edited post above with actual numbers...something you have failed to provide. According to the numbers, you have a 3% chance of any one school district beiong involved in a school shooting. If you break that down further by the number of schools that are actually within those districts, the chance of any one school experiencing a school shooting drops to far less than even 1% chance. That is a greater than 99% chance that your school will never be involved in a school shooting.

 

[jillio]

I think you're confusing "paranoia" with seeing some random middle eastern man with beard on the plane as a terrorist. No that's not what we're paranoid about. We're deeply concerned about our inability to stop the massacre. Hiring armed security guard may be impractical or cost ineffective for most schools - especially rural area or quiet area.

Like Chase said - the time has come... don't forget - this is not a permanent solution.

I'm not confusing paranoia at all. But obviously, you don't recognize your own. Advocating for teachers to go armed when there is a less that 1% chance that any school in the U.S. will experience a school shooting in any one year is an example of paranoia at its most extreme.

 

[Jiro]

And, if you knew anything at all about psychology, you would understand that people under stress do not react with logic and forethought. If you don't see this as a problem, you quite obviously have no understanding of the psychodynamics at work in such a situation. It is a sad day indeed, when our teachers must become armed law enforcement officers rather than teachers. Especially when such occurs based on the paranoia of a few that propose a police state.

and if you know anything about psychology..... it's called training. based on your comment - so you're saying police officers are no better than armed citizens because they do not react well under duress with logic and forethought? and no teachers are not acting as law enforcement officers. they are simply acting in defense to protect themselves and their students - just as much as homeowners protecting their homes/families from intruders.

I repeat my post -

Professor Liviu Librescu held the door of his classroom, room 204, shut while Cho attempted to enter it. Librescu was able to prevent the shooter from entering the classroom until most of his students escaped through the windows, but he died after being shot multiple times through the door. One student in his classroom was killed.

I don't know about you but i don't think any cop or security guard would even sacrifice his own life for students. I know that room and the door. It's just a regular door with big window on top half. he's a fucking hero to hold that useless door to prevent him from coming in. If that professor had gun, perhaps 32 lives would have been spared - including himself.

I think it is sadder that the day has come where youths have become more violent and deadlier. No teachers want to arm themselves at school but they have no choice.

and the police state you say? how is that? police state means government will monitor everything, install cameras everywhere, guards on every corners. Armed teachers with hidden guns where nobody knows isn't exactly a police state. Installing metal detectors, hiring security guards, fencing the school property, electronically-tagging each student/teacher/visitor.... now that's a frightful thought... a real example of police state. I don't know if you want your child to go to such prison-like school. I don't see what's the concern with sending your child to school where they have 1 armed teacher out of 20 teachers.

Can you provide any form of support for that claim? And, I do not trust armed citizens because the majority are just as paranoid as you yourself are, thereby seeing danger at every turn. It makes them more likely to react without justifiable provocation.

again - lack of understanding and awareness of what it takes to be a responsible armed citizen. Can you provide any form of support for your claim that majority are paranoid and trigger-happy as you claim? Because I have not heard in news lately or earlier about this. All I hear is trigger-happy police officers

Then why arm teachers? Security personnel could be hired to do the job, and, in fact, have been hired to do the job in numerous school systems. Are you proposing protection, or just advocating for the right of anyone, anywhere to carry a concealed, lethal weapon? Teachers were not meant to be law enforcement officers.

and how is security personnel any different from armed teacher? they do not receive stringent training nor abide by stringent regulations. I take comfort in knowing that armed teacher show more genuine concern for theirs students - something that I doubt cops/security guards would do. They're more concerned about being alive than victims' well-beings. Who can better protect the students and risk their lives? teachers in that situation or the cops?

Law enforcement is for arresting thugs and maintaining peace for us. What about protecting ourselves? I've already proved to you that law enforcement officers have not apprehended or stopped any single school shooter in major school massacres as all shooters have ended in suicides.

Absolutely I have the right to know. And if you had any concept of civil rights you would understand that you cannot demand for yourself what you refuse to grant to another. And, again, support your claim with statistics. Otherwise, it is nothing more than you making up figures in an attempt to support your distorted view. Evidently, you haven't researched the school shooting incidents very thoroughly. I suggest you inform yourself before making such claims.

sorry nope. if you understand the concept of civil rights - then you do know that we have rights to protect ourselves.

Do you actually have time to research each new events thoroughly while you're working on your ph.d? You actually have time to thoroughly research each presidential candidates, school shootings, capital punishment, etc? wow either you are truly the master of time management or you're just full of hot air. if you are the former - you should write a book about time management That should be your bread earner and I'd be the first to buy it. If it's the latter, please do not tell me to research it thoroughly when you can't. i don't need to do my homework for you. i've done my homework by giving you quick statistic of incidents, dates, occurrences, and deaths and then my conclusion. that should be sufficient and I see that everybody's satisfied with my finding.

 

[Jiro]

Please see the edited post above with actual numbers...something you have failed to provide. According to the numbers, you have a 3% chance of any one school district beiong involved in a school shooting. If you break that dowen further by the number of schools that are actually within those districts, the chance of any one school experiencing a school shooting drops to far less than even 1% chance. That is a greater than 99% chance that your school will never be involved in a school shooting.

..... and that's what each school thought...... Who ever thought there'd be massacre at Virginia Tech??? I attended there for 3 years and the massacre just happened 2 years after I transferred out? Many of my friends and relative got scared and thought I may be a victim there. You have no idea how many calls/emails/txts I received when it happened.

I lived in that dorm where he resided and shot up and half of my classes were at that building - Norris Hall - where he killed most of people. I guess they're not so lucky with the 1% or 3% thing...

your fancy math probability calculation = EPIC FAIL!!!

life cannot be calculated based on probability or statistic. not for students nor teachers. if this was some city crime.... no big deal. but this is school we're talking about. this is supposed to be a safe haven for kids. NO STUDENT SHOULD BE KILLED AT SCHOOLS! 1 life is 1 too many. 100 dead is far too many and this demands drastic action. and you call us paranoid because of some silly 3% probability? :roll:

I'm not confusing paranoia at all. But obviously, you don't recognize your own. Advocating for teachers to go armed when there is a less that 1% chance that any school in the U.S. will experience a school shooting in any one year is an example of paranoia at its most extreme.

I'm not advocating for teachers to go armed but I support the decision. In fact - it is cost effective and practical to have at least 1 armed teacher in school than hiring armed security guard because based on your fancy math calculations.... there is 3% of chance of school shooting to happen. Paying security guard isn't cheap. It makes sense to hire 10 security guards for dangerous schools like LA or Brooklyn but not for a school like in Texas district with cops 30 min away.

this is not an issue of paranoia. you make it sound as if teacher is looking for any sign of danger at every corner and will respond to it with preemptive strike. That is a typical assumption of anti-gun/gun-frightful liberals. This is simply an ability to defend ourselves if such event ever happens. We do not look out for dangers. We simply want to have a choice to respond to a real danger, not "warning." If it happens - then it happens. what would be great is to have an ability to stop it from becoming a massacre.

 

[jillio]

and if you know anything about psychology..... it's called training. based on your comment - so you're saying police officers are no better than armed citizens because they do not react well under duress with logic and forethought? and no teachers are not acting as law enforcement officers. they are simply acting in defense to protect themselves and their students - just as much as homeowners protecting their homes/families from intruders.

No that isn't what I said at all. Please re-read the post. If you need clarification, ask.
I repeat my post -

I don't know about you but i don't think any cop or security guard would even sacrifice his own life for students. I know that room and the door. It's just a regular door with big window on top half. he's a fucking hero to hold that useless door to prevent him from coming in. If that professor had gun, perhaps 32 lives would have been spared - including himself.

And if the problem had been addressed proactively, the entire incident could have been avoided. And we are talking secondary schools, not post-secondary. You seem to have a fondness for confusing the issues.I think it is sadder that the day has come where youths have become more violent and deadlier. No teachers want to arm themselves at school but they have no choice.

Oh, but they do have a choice.

and the police state you say? how is that? police state means government will monitor everything, install cameras everywhere, guards on every corners. Armed teachers with hidden guns where nobody knows isn't exactly a police state. Installing metal detectors, hiring security guards, fencing the school property, electronically-tagging each student/teacher/visitor.... now that's a frightful thought... a real example of police state. I don't know if you want your child to go to such prison-like school. I don't see what's the concern with sending your child to school where they have 1 armed teacher out of 20 teachers.

I would rather my child attend a school that takes protective matters into consideration, and treats them accordingly than one who permits teachers to carry weapons.

again - lack of understanding and awareness of what it takes to be a responsible armed citizen. Can you provide any form of support for your claim that majority are paranoid and trigger-happy as you claim? Because I have not heard in news lately or earlier about this. All I hear is trigger-happy police officers

Given the fact that you have not supported a single claim or suggestion you have made, I find your request for support not only ironic, but laughable, as well.


and how is security personnel any different from armed teacher? they do not receive stringent training nor abide by stringent regulations. I take comfort in knowing that armed teacher show more genuine concern for theirs students - something that I doubt cops/security guards would do. They're more concerned about being alive than victims' well-beings. Who can better protect the students and risk their lives? teachers in that situation or the cops?

Because, teachers are meant to teach and security officers are meant to protect. Do I really need to explain such a fundamental difference to you? If so, your allegations of being unware is again, not only ironic, but completely laughable.
Law enforcement is for arresting thugs and maintaining peace for us. What about protecting ourselves? I've already proved to you that law enforcement officers have not apprehended or stopped any single school shooter in major school massacres as all shooters have ended in suicides.

You have proven zilch. You have not even offered support for your argument. I have, on the other hand, provided you with the numbers that indicate that there is a less than 1% chance of a school shooting occurring in any given year in any given school. Get a grip jiro.

And there is a reason that school shootings end in suicide. Again, your lack of knowlege regarding the psychodynamics of the situation is apparent.
sorry nope. if you understand the concept of civil rights - then you do know that we have rights to protect ourselves.

Actually, I have an in depth understanding of the concept of civil rights. It is you that chooses to accept such for yourself while denying it to others. Int hat case, it ceases to be a civil right. And exactly what are you protecting yourself from? A less than 1% chance? You have a much greater chance of being attacked from a case of road rage.

Do you actually have time to research each new events thoroughly while you're working on your ph.d? You actually have time to thoroughly research each presidential candidates, school shootings, capital punishment, etc? wow either you are truly the master of time management or you're just full of hot air. if you are the former - you should write a book about time management That should be your bread earner and I'd be the first to buy it. If it's the latter, please do not tell me to research it thoroughly when you can't. i don't need to do my homework for you. i've done my homework by giving you quick statistic of incidents, dates, occurrences, and deaths and then my conclusion. that should be sufficient and I see that everybody's satisfied with my finding.

It is a bit more than time management. It is staying on top of events on a daily basis, as a lifetime habit. If you knew naything at all about working on a Ph.D., you would already grasp the fact that it is all about application. And, yes, I not only have the time, I make the time. To do otherwise is to remain ignorant. Perhaps you should try a bit more research yourself. Then you would have the opportunity to acutally accummulate knowlege instead of pulling things from hither and yon that are totally unapplicable. And no, you don't need to do your homework for me, but it behoove you to do it for yourself. You would come across as much more credible.

Your statistics were lacking. And actually, those are not statistics, but raw data. What I have provided, in breaking down of your data and the risk of school shootings by district and individual school is statistics.

I see quite a bit of dissatisfaction with your conclusions. Perhaps you just choose to ignore it.

 

[jillio]

..... and that's what each school thought...... Who ever thought there'd be massacre at Virginia Tech??? I attended there for 3 years and the massacre just happened 2 years after I transferred out? Many of my friends and relative got scared and thought I may be a victim there. You have no idea how many calls/emails/txts I received when it happened.

Your friends and relatives did not know your whereabouts for 2 years? And of course no one predicted it...that is why it is known as an isolated incident. Duh!

I lived in that dorm where he resided and shot up and half of my classes were at that building - Norris Hall - where he killed most of people. I guess they're not so lucky with the 1% or 3% thing...

You weren't there, so your 1% is still out there looking for you.

your fancy math probability calculation = EPIC FAIL!!!

life cannot be calculated based on probability or statistic. not for students nor teachers. if this was some city crime.... no big deal. but this is school we're talking about. this is supposed to be a safe haven for kids. NO STUDENT SHOULD BE KILLED AT SCHOOLS! 1 life is 1 too many. 100 dead is far too many and this demands drastic action. and you call us paranoid because of some silly 3% probability? :roll:

And the only reason you are saying that is because I have shown you to be extremely paranoid and narrow minded regarding your support of armed teachers. And life can be calculated on probability. Everything in life can be reduced to a probability. I'm surpised you don't understand that, given your claim to such proficiency in math.

And stop appealing to emotion. Stay on track here and argue from a logical standpoint. No one should ever be killed in a car accident leaving a wife with 4 small children to care for. Has absolutely nothing to do with the topic. Until you can prove that even 1 armed teacher would have prevented the tradgedy, your argument cannot be supported. The fact of the matter is, a less than 1% chance is not sufficent to support the need for teachers going armed. You are grasping at straws now, and they are short ones, indeed.
I'm not advocating for teachers to go armed but I support the decision. In fact - it is cost effective and practical to have at least 1 armed teacher in school than hiring armed security guard because based on your fancy math calculations.... there is 3% of chance of school shooting to happen. Paying security guard isn't cheap. It makes sense to hire 10 security guards for dangerous schools like LA or Brooklyn but not for a school like in Texas district with cops 30 min away.

Please supply statistics that would support the cost effectiveness. And 1 armed teacher would hardly be useful. You think that the students aren't going to know which teacher is armed? What if that armed teacher is halfway across campus when the violence breaks out? How efficient is he/she going to be? And go back and re-read the posts. There is a 3% chance in any school district. School districts contain many schools. When you break it down to the number of schools, it is a less than 1% chance.

And how is it that you know that cops are 30 minutes away from this school in Texas? And remember, it is highly improbable that the cops would ever be called to this school to deal with a school shooting because their risk is the same as everyone else's...less than 1%.

this is not an issue of paranoia. you make it sound as if teacher is looking for any sign of danger at every corner and will respond to it with preemptive strike. That is a typical assumption of anti-gun/gun-frightful liberals. This is simply an ability to defend ourselves if such event ever happens. We do not look out for dangers. We simply want to have a choice to respond to a real danger, not "warning." If it happens - then it happens. what would be great is to have an ability to stop it from becoming a massacre.

I am not anti-gun at all. But your assumption that I am is simply a case of attempting to divert the issue through attacking my belief system. There is an old Chinese Proverb: The man who strikes first admits that his ideas have given out. So we will take that little attack as evidence that you are completely unable to support your arguments and are out of ideas.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

*nodding agreement, Jillio*

I would like to ask you a question, Jillio.

If anyone want to become teacher, they should study psychology to understand students´ kind of behavior?

 

[jillio]

*nodding agreement, Jillio*

I would like to ask you a question, Jillio.

If anyone want to become teacher, they should study psychology to understand students´ kind of behavior?

They should certainly have a background that will allow them to recognize at risk behavior before it becomes violent. The problem seems to be that, even when teachers recognize at risk behavior, administration ignores the warnings.

 

[Tousi]

I like the conceal carry idea; it jumps ahead of all the BS going on and addresses the issue head on.

 

[jillio]

I like the conceal carry idea; it jumps ahead of all the BS going on and addresses the issue head on.

Actually, Tousi, it doesn't address the issue head on. It addresses the surface. And school shooters are intent not just on taking the lives of others, but their own life, as well. Therefore, risking being shot is not a concern for people in this frame of mind. Saves the the trouble of shooting themselves.

 

[BradB08]

That is just too funny!!!!

It definitely is a joke. I love being accused of doing things I have nothing to do with.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

They should certainly have a background that will allow them to recognize at risk behavior before it becomes violent. The problem seems to be that, even when teachers recognize at risk behavior, administration ignores the warnings.

Yes, your post make sense that teacher´s job task to recognize student´s background behavior and work on it and help student to understand before it comes worst. It´s sad that admin. ignores the warning...

It make no sense why teacher use guns for? It solve nothing but worst... It makes them think gun is okay...

 

[Tousi]

Actually, Tousi, it doesn't address the issue head on. It addresses the surface. And school shooters are intent not just on taking the lives of others, but their own life, as well. Therefore, risking being shot is not a concern for people in this frame of mind. Saves the the trouble of shooting themselves.

Well, I still say that, until the solutions you advocate are resolved by whomever (politicians, the medical folks, parenting, etc) quit their foot-dragging or clear out whatever obstacles are seemingly always in their way, this will have to do. Having been raised around guns (hunting, taking courses, plinking, etc,), I would have no compunction as a teacher these days to conceal carry and hope to never have to act on it (that 2% chance but it only takes one time). As well as you present your thinking on this, I have no problem disregarding it to a better day for your compassionate view.

 

[webexplorer]

It is sad that there are too many students in a classroom which is not good. Most students need more attention from a teacher which is impossible.

In the old days, it was probably a lot easier for a few students in the classroom, and they got the opportunity to learn more. That's how the students keep their busy in the classroom.

In the big classroom, a teacher does not have a free time to help them, except a tutor room. A tutor is a little different because every teacher have a different way of teaching. The teacher's job is to teach them and write down the grades on the reports. That's it. It is ideal, but not a good example - a teacher rather to shoot someone first before someone asks the teacher a question.

 

[CCfan]

NOOOOO! That's worse idea! :run aways like scared:
I sure anyone who will be student would tackle the gun from the teacher then shoot them? Then they have consequences for them! That it is not right thing to do with the guns!

 

[HorseRace]

wow yea.. it sad one! rme! i agree with webexploer that he says wish guns would not invented thousand years ago! yup gun causes everything plm! rme!