Law Allowing Guns in Restaurants Takes Effect Wednesday

jillio said:
Oh? How exactly is it that CCW holders are so far above average?
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All you have to do is read my posts and use your critical thinking. :)
 
Jiro said:
All you have to do is read my posts and use your critical thinking. :)
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yes, they are not above average, but it is common sense for criminals NOT to use their own guns (or guns registered under their own name) because it will trace back to them if they did.
 
jillio said:
No obfuscation. It isn't necessary.

You have proved nothing of the kind. You have posted stories from the media. They cannot generalize past the incident being reported. They certainly can't be used as proof that CCW are more responsible, nor that a CCW holder is more likely to intervene than not when a crime is being committed. There is research that addresses just these issues, but it is found in profession journals dealing with sociology and social psychology. News accounts of a particular incident is useless except to report that particular incident. One cannot assume correlation or cause and effect from a news report.
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Refer to my previous post - I've shown enough posts to dispel the myth and stereotypes of CCW holder as a trigger-happy cowboy or a vigilante who thinks he's enforcing the law. CCW is NOT a license to kill nor a license to arrest or whatsoever. It simply means you are permitted to carry concealed weapon in public.

I don't know about you but research and journals? lol.... how about real world examples? I've shown you plenty enough.. something that research and journals cannot duplicate nor foresee.

So what are those research and journals? I've already shown you mine in my post #107

jillio said:
You also stated that CCW holders did not commit crimes, however, your post #105 states the opposite:

After receiving permits, only 17 (0.008%) individuals committed crimes (not necessarily violent) in which firearms were present, though not necessarily used.

This is based on statistical data, which is more reliable than a news story. This is also only in one state, so the number would increase nationwide. The word only was used to minimize the fact that 17 individuals who applied for and received CCW's committed crimes where firearms were involved after receiving their CCW.
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again - no such thing as 100% but the statistic is SIGNIFICANTLY insignificant enough to prove the concerns wrong. 0.008% wow! MYTH BUSTED!

jillio said:
Since the topic involves the ability to carry a gun into a restaurant, my posts have been very much on topic. It doesn't matter whether it is under a CCW or not. Guns and alcohol do not make a good mix. You have yet to provide a viable or valid reason as to why anyone would need to take a gun into a restaurant.
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Drinking and Driving does not mix either. Drinking and Medication does not mix either. and yet...... the laws for guns are far more restrictive than any other laws..... and more people die from drinking+medication than from guns (excluding illegal possession of firearms) in entire 10 years together. :hmm:

again - what you are showing is a typical misplaced fear by anti-gun people. More people get killed by drunk driving than guns and yet.... Drunk Driving law is too far more lenient compared to Firearm Laws. what's up with that? :hmm:

Again - you have one chance with firearm law and SEVERAL chances with drunk driving law. :hmm:

jillio said:
I have question. Those carrying a gun with a CCW into a restaurant, under this law, are not allowed to consume alcohol. That means that the bartender must be aware so as not to serve them alcohol even if they request it, much the same as a bartender is responsible for checking ID's or cutting patrons off if they become too innebriated. If the gun is concealed, as per the permit, how is the bartender to know who is carrying a gun and who isn't? And don't tell me that CCW holders are so responsible that they would not even order a drink if they had their gun on them. People know that drunk driving is against the law, and still they do it.
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yes drinking while armed is against the law and..... where are the news regarding drunk while CCW? any statistic? I'm still waiting on that.
 
Lighthouse77 said:
yes, they are not above average, but it is common sense for criminals NOT to use their own guns (or guns registered under their own name) because it will trace back to them if they did.
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1. yes CCW holders are above Joe the Hunter in terms of responsibility, training and law
2. criminals cannot obtain firearms legally. Please re-read my post #108

Federal Prohibitors

United States Code, Title 18, Section 922(d) states “it shall be unlawful for any person to sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm or ammunition to any person knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that such person –

* is under indictment for, or has been convicted in any court of, a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year:

* is a fugitive of justice;

* is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance (as defined in section 102 of the Controlled Substance Act (21 United States Code 802)

* has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to any mental institution;

* who, being an alien-
+ is illegally or unlawfully in the United States; or
+ except as provided in subsection (y)(2), has been admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa (as that term is defined in section 101(a)(26) of the Immigration and Naturalization Act (8 United States Code 1101(a)(26)).
* who has been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions;

* who, having been a citizen of the United States, has renounced his citizenship;

* is subject to a court order that restrains such person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner of such person or child of such intimate partner or person, or engaging in conduct that would place an intimate partner in reasonable fear of bodily injury to the partner or child, except that this paragraph shall only apply to a court order that –
+ was issued after a hearing of which such person received actual notice, and at which such person had the opportunity to participate; and
+ expected to cause bodily injury;
+ includes a finding that such person represents a credible threat to the physical safety of such intimate partner or child; or
+ by its terms explicitly prohibits the use, attempted use, or threatened use of physical force against such intimate partner or child that would reasonably be expected to cause bodily injury;

* has been convicted in any court of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence.
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the only way the criminals can get guns is to get it from black market or use fake toy gun
 
2. criminals cannot obtain firearms legally. Please re-read my post #108 >>>> I was referring to first time crime or the ones who never been caught... They would never use a gun under their name out of fear that they would be caught. They are criminals without a record.
 
Lighthouse77 said:
I was referring to first time crime or the ones who never been caught... They would never use a gun under their name out of fear that they would be caught. They are criminals without a record.
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what about it? sorry but I fail to see the point. Are you insinuating that guns should be banned because of that?
 
no, I support gun rights.

I'm just saying CCW using their own gun for criminal act rarely happen. They would use illegal or blackmarket guns for that. So why punish people for registering their gun?

speaking of guns, I know several online people who know how to make homemade guns. he even have a website to share informations for other people. Well just the black powder stuffs. He said the only bad thing is that They are unsafe and dangerous because you can't shoot an accurate target... that is if you intend to shoot someone on the leg, it could end up on the chest because the gun does not have a accurate aim.Today modern guns are more accurate and you have better control of where you want to aim.
 
Lighthouse77 said:
no, I support gun rights.
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oh ok I understand.

Lighthouse77 said:
I'm just saying CCW using their own gun for criminal act rarely happen. They would use illegal or blackmarket guns for that. So why punish people for registering their gun?
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lol that's a stretch there. It's not that easy to obtain guns illegally. You think some guy on street would sell gun to anybody with cash? No way. It doesn't work like that in movie. Chance is - you will get mugged by a gun seller... or even killed.

Don't you recall hearing in news many times about a spouse getting arrested for paying a hitman who turned out to be undercover? Remember Dell Guy? he got caught buying weed from undercover in NYC. It's not that easy as you think.

beside - not a problem there. if that person with CCW has ill-intent to use firearm, chance is he will be shot by other person with CCW :lol:

Lighthouse77 said:
speaking of guns, I know several online people who know how to make homemade guns. he even have a website to share informations for other people. Well just the black powder stuffs. He said the only bad thing is that these homemade guns are like blackmarket abortions. They are unsafe and dangerous because you can't shoot an accurate target... that is if you intend to shoot someone on the leg, it could end up on the chest because the gun does not have a accurate aim.Today modern guns are more accurate and you have better control of where you want to aim.
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homemade guns? lol. nothing to do with CCW or Firearm Law. but there's a keyword - ONLINE PEOPLE. People say a lot of thing online.

just a small correction there - the gun is not accurate because it's simply a modern gun. The firearm concept is actually the same as concept hundred years ago.

A fun factoid - the average time to train a pilot is about 5 years, I believe. It's the SAME average as 50 years ago despite of significant technological advancement. You can continue to modernize any gun, plane, car as far as you can but basic human skill never change.
 
I do think there are people who know how to make their own guns.

lol that's a stretch there. It's not that easy to obtain guns illegally. You think some guy on street would sell gun to anybody with cash? No way. It doesn't work like that in movie. Chance is - you will get mugged by a gun seller... or even killed.

Don't you recall hearing in news many times about a spouse getting arrested for paying a hitman who turned out to be undercover? Remember Dell Guy? he got caught buying weed from undercover in NYC. It's not that easy as you think.

beside - not a problem there. if that person with CCW has ill-intent to use firearm, chance is he will be shot by other person with CCW
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If you are going to chastened me for that, then why so many point out that only outlaw will have guns? isn't it basically the same thing?
 
Lighthouse77 said:
I do think there are people who know how to make their own guns.
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of course. I don't doubt that. People do know how to make knife, bomb, anything out of anything... even a soap bar. But... if you're gonna rob something, it's really much easier to use a $10 toy gun - spray paint it to cover the orange tip.

FYI - most homemade gun is one-shot only. Majority of DIY guns inflict more damage on shooter than the victim.

Lighthouse77 said:
If you are going to chastened me for that, then why so many point out that only outlaw will have guns? isn't it basically the same thing?
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exactly. There are far too many criminals with illegal firearms and far too few law-abiding people with CCW due to highly-restrictive gun law and misplaced anti-gun sentimentalism. That's not exactly fair, isn't it?
 
Boult said:
Jiro, your last post is not about LAW but requirement to acquire a CCW Permit.

This thread is about allowing those gun holder who have CCW permit to walk into a restaurants (that have a bar or sell boozes), of course, they can't consume booze at all if inside those newly permitted place of business as of today and forward. That's what the law that went into effect today is about. I found this new law idiotic because it is like walking into a hornet nest with hidden gun!

Since lately, AZ have allowed those with CCW permit to walk into McDonald's (since it is a family restaurant) but they don't serve boozes! even those restaurants that don't have a BAR or SELL boozes allowed those CCW permit holders. The new law is about allowing those permit holder to sit inside a restaurant that HAVE a bar.

Gun toters get cold shoulder | www.azstarnet.com ®

ABOUT THE LAW
The law — Arizona Revised Statutes Section 4-229 — allows anyone with a state-issued permit to carry a concealed weapon to bring the weapon into a bar or restaurant where beer, wine or liquor is sold.
Other provisions:
• Business owners may post "no weapons" signs — specifically described in the law — if they don't want their patrons to be armed.
• Anyone who is armed is not permitted to drink.
• Several situations form an "affirmative defense" to an alleged violation of the law, including cases where a person was not informed of the no-firearm notice; the notice had fallen down; the person was not an Arizona resident at the time of the violation; or when the notice had not been up at least 30 days before the violation.
• The law makes exceptions for those carrying guns if they enter a bar to seek emergency aid or to determine whether a no-guns sign has been posted.
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Most states are allows to carry guns to restaurants, check out this website.
OpenCarry.org - A Right Unexercised is a Right Lost!

More information about CCW, check out this website.
Carry Concealed

I have agree with Jiro about CCW, however restaurants are businesses so they have rights to post no gun sign.
 
Foxrac said:
...I have agree with Jiro about CCW, however restaurants are businesses so they have rights to post no gun sign.
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Correct. We also have the right to not patronize those that do, and let them know the reason why we won't do business with them.
 
souggy said:
Psst... I think he's a spammer. Look at his post history... it's almost like he just glanced at the posts, instead of actually reading them. The one about rocks hailing through the skies is a clear indicator...
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Thanks for the "heads up". :)
 
I'm sorry but under the influence of alcohol and guns do not mix just as under the influence of alcohol and driving do not mix. I wouldn't be surprised if bars turns into old western cowboy movies, where they all shoot each others. :-X
 
Cheri said:
I'm sorry but under the influence of alcohol and guns do not mix just as under the influence of alcohol and driving do not mix. I wouldn't be surprised if bars turns into old western cowboy movies, where they all shoot each others. :-X
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Don't forget, those are movies, not real life.

Criminals have always been able to go into bars with hidden guns because they don't obey laws.
 
Jiro said:
All you have to do is read my posts and use your critical thinking. :)
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No, to come to such a conclusion does not require critical thinkingg. It requires biased thinking and circular reasoning. Not to mention a bit of superiority.

There is nothing in the literature nor data to suggest that people who have a CCW are superior to people who don't.:roll:
 
Reba said:
Don't forget, those are movies, not real life.

Criminals have always been able to go into bars with hidden guns because they don't obey laws.
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and we have already heard tons of it in news - nearly 99.9% of those incidents are caused by THUGS with ILLEGAL FIREARMS, not law-abiding armed citizens.
 
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