Know Your Rights - Transgender People and the Law

[Saavik]

Also the 'natural' argument is idiotic. Riddle me this batman, if things should be natural and adhered to strictly, then why do we wear clothing, glasses, hearing aids? If you mean behavioural-wise, then why do we jump off buildings, bridges and planes or run back and forth kicking a ball one end to the other on a field with painted white lines?

Webster's dictionary defines the word natural quite clearly as "existing in nature and not made or caused by people : coming from nature"

Natural - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

 

[Dreamer03]

to saavik *hug* you awsome

 

[Dreamer03]

OMG!!! My head hurts after respectyoda hits my head with his bible book.

I think the Bible is nicer than all his comments.

 

[hurleysrus]

OMG!!! My head hurts after respectyoda hits my head with his bible book.

I know.... people like that lower my hopes in people in general

 

[Saavik]

I know.... people like that lower my hopes in people in general

Yeah, now you're starting to understand my being a bit of a misanthrope at times.

 

[rockin'robin]

Yeah, now you're starting to understand my being a bit of a misanthrope at times.

Was waiting for you to jump into this thread....glad you did!....I'm learning a lot here.

 

[Foxrac]

Was waiting for you to jump into this thread....glad you did!....I'm learning a lot here.

Yes, we glad that we overthrew authoritarian out of forum.

 

[goodonya]

When you rewrite what is perceived as natural you are bound to meet some resistance out there in the bigger world.

A guy getting his parts revamped and all of that is not exactly something that has been around a long time. It is just reality I am saying.

You can call people who don't just up and get onboard with it names all day long you are not going to convince them it is natural. I grew up in a world where there was Christine Jorgenson on the news period. That was a big WTF to most. It is not that long ago.

 

[hoichi]

If you surely do then I guess you are okay with having lungs full of tartar and having the possibility of lung cancer among other risks.

i know the risks i accept them. pass the light...

You haven't said why you don't think we live once.

this isnt the thread for it.

We only have one life to live on this Earth! Sorry to burst your bubble, but we are definitely not cats that have nine lives.

yes i am,

What? You are not making sense here. Even though one can change to dress/act like the opposite sex, this does not change the fact that a person is biologically a female or male. There is no point in changing something that one cannot change!

says you. leave others alone to decide for themselves

If you were just getting started then I advise you to take more time in adequately answering questions. It is not like you have to post your answer to a posed question quickly. You can easily take your time to craft out an explanation that was well thought of.

fair

It is unnatural because like I stated earlier, a gender is not something you can change inwardly so there's no point in changing it outwardly if it is still the same inwardly. It is the same as dying one's hair color. That person can claim to be a blonde, but it still doesn't change the fact that the DNA of this person says the hair is naturally brown.

what is gender to you?

This is quite simple to answer. According to nature and biology, a person is born to be one of two genders! Going under the knife or dressing/acting differently for the purpose of changing one's gender goes against nature that defined that person biologically as a male or a female.

but we also have the faculties to disarm nature of its dictates. as we do with many things. why not here? if that what an individual chooses and wishes so be it.
freedom is a good thing

Now, don't put words in my mouth as you must be careful upon interpreting my statements. Surgeries are needful when altering the human body without interfering with how the DNA defines the body. For example, if one is born with three arms, it is okay to cut the arm that is not supposed to be there.

but if a person chooses to keep the three arms why not?

This is a relevant example because a dog is born with DNA that defines it as a dog. It is the same as a human being as one is born with DNA that defines the being as a male or a female. We cannot change one's DNA in a way that the being would change genders.

theres more to gender then just dna

Like I stated before, I am using various examples of where just because someone claims something, it doesn't mean it is logically true and sound. If I claim 2 + 2 = 5, it doesn't mean this is a logically true and sound statement. The same can be applied to this discussion. Just because man claims it is okay to change genders, it doesn't mean it is right.

your examples are not sound. "mathematics" and what is "right" or "wrong" within human beings are not remotely even close. one is a language set of symbols, (math), the other is morality (right or wrong).

Think about it. If everyone were to change their gender by dressing/acting differently then what's the point of being born a certain gender? Think about it.

and whats th epoint in forcing people against their will to remain what they are not?

thats tyranny!!!

[/QUOTE]

My point is that there's no benefit in seeing nakedness of others that you are not married to or have no reason to because this can just cause people to have inappropriate thoughts, especially lustful ones.

that is YOUR religious conviction. and not mine or others. what you find to be a scandal (nakedness) i find to be a beautiful. what you find to be inappropriate thoughts i find to be nothing other then normal thoughts. lustfull thoughts are just fine..[/QUOTE]

I am sorry to hear that. .

im sorry that your sorry

I am sorry you think like that.

im sorry you think the way you do too

Of course, it'd be inappropriate to see any degree of nakedness of people in movies, even books and magazines because this is nothing more than filthiness.

that is YOUR religious conviction. i do NOT find the naked human body to be "filthy" due to being naked. on the contrary. i find the naked body to be wonderful.

 

[shel90]

Of course, it'd be inappropriate to see any degree of nakedness of people in movies, even books and magazines because this is nothing more than filthiness. [/QUOTE]

If you are religious, then it was God who made the human body beautiful and beauty is not filthy.

 

[whatdidyousay!]

If you surely do then I guess you are okay with having lungs full of tartar and having the possibility of lung cancer among other risks.



You haven't said why you don't think we live once. We only have one life to live on this Earth! Sorry to burst your bubble, but we are definitely not cats that have nine lives.



What? You are not making sense here. Even though one can change to dress/act like the opposite sex, this does not change the fact that a person is biologically a female or male. There is no point in changing something that one cannot change!



If you were just getting started then I advise you to take more time in adequately answering questions. It is not like you have to post your answer to a posed question quickly. You can easily take your time to craft out an explanation that was well thought of.



It is unnatural because like I stated earlier, a gender is not something you can change inwardly so there's no point in changing it outwardly if it is still the same inwardly. It is the same as dying one's hair color. That person can claim to be a blonde, but it still doesn't change the fact that the DNA of this person says the hair is naturally brown.



This is quite simple to answer. According to nature and biology, a person is born to be one of two genders! Going under the knife or dressing/acting differently for the purpose of changing one's gender goes against nature that defined that person biologically as a male or a female.



Now, don't put words in my mouth as you must be careful upon interpreting my statements. Surgeries are needful when altering the human body without interfering with how the DNA defines the body. For example, if one is born with three arms, it is okay to cut the arm that is not supposed to be there.



This is a relevant example because a dog is born with DNA that defines it as a dog. It is the same as a human being as one is born with DNA that defines the being as a male or a female. We cannot change one's DNA in a way that the being would change genders.



Like I stated before, I am using various examples of where just because someone claims something, it doesn't mean it is logically true and sound. If I claim 2 + 2 = 5, it doesn't mean this is a logically true and sound statement. The same can be applied to this discussion. Just because man claims it is okay to change genders, it doesn't mean it is right. Think about it. If everyone were to change their gender by dressing/acting differently then what's the point of being born a certain gender? Think about it.



My point is that there's no benefit in seeing nakedness of others that you are not married to or have no reason to because this can just cause people to have inappropriate thoughts, especially lustful ones.

mine i love seeing the nakedness of woman. and them me. hell i'm a nudist. and in my early days was a fairly fast streaker when i had a few to many..all in good fun, alas youth is wasted on the young
get together with some close friends and get naked.

I am sorry to hear that.




I am sorry you think like that.



This was about coed bathrooms shared by men and women at the same time. Having a bathroom that can be only used by one person is irrelevant to this thread/debacle because of course a man can use a single-user bathroom after a woman comes out of the bathroom.



Of course, it'd be inappropriate to see any degree of nakedness of people in movies, even books and magazines because this is nothing more than filthiness. [/QUOTE]


Then why are using a computer there are picture of women in their and panties bras for store ads . You might get blinded from looking at the photos . Then you much not watch TV . What kind of childhood did you have ??? I had clients that where 80 -102 yo and some of them felt this way , are you that old too?

 

[respectyoda]

Gender is what's between your ears, sex is found between your legs. Just because I was born one sex doesn't mean I have to accept it since I know I'm not, it's wrong and I can change it without it affecting anyone else's life. If you're born poor, do you just accept it or try everything you can to lead a less stressful, happier life?

I'm going to be blunt here and say this.. What the hell do you know about trans issues? What do you know about the issues moral crusaders such as yourself cause not only for trans people like myself, but gay people face? I don't smoke tobacco, but those who do I don't care, those who don't smoke at all, I also don't care. What does it matter what others do to feel complete and happy in their lives? We live maybe 80 years or so and die, that's it. Don't want to be with a member of your sex, don't, feel comfortable as your birth sex, cool.

Either this guy is a troll or just a self-righteous bigot who lacks even a modicum of empathy.

Sex can be defined as "either the male or female division of a species." Hence, the reason why I was talking about how if one is born a male, that individual will always be a male no matter how he tries to act/look like a female.

You may think what you do doesn't/shouldn't affect the lives of others, but in actuality, our actions do affect others! When people do things against nature, people will see that and be affected by it. They will then either question it or go after those things out of sheer curiosity.

You may not care if others smoke tobacco/cigarettes, drink alcohol, and so on. But I do care because these things are not what makes one truly happy in life as they diminish the value of life. If someone is doing unhealthy and we care about that person, we would encourage that person to stop doing that certain action that is unhealthy. Simply because we want to help that person have a better life health-wise.

OMG!!! My head hurts after respectyoda hits my head with his bible book.

Foxrac, have I stated anything relevant to the Bible in this thread? I think not.

Also the 'natural' argument is idiotic. Riddle me this batman, if things should be natural and adhered to strictly, then why do we wear clothing, glasses, hearing aids? If you mean behavioural-wise, then why do we jump off buildings, bridges and planes or run back and forth kicking a ball one end to the other on a field with painted white lines?

Webster's dictionary defines the word natural quite clearly as "existing in nature and not made or caused by people : coming from nature"

Natural - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

I was actually using this phrase throughout this thread: "...against nature..." This means according to the online dictionary something nature unnatural or immoral. I was discussing the inherent characteristics of a human being biological-wise. For example, I have stated that if one person is biologically a male, then by nature, this person is a male. Now, if this male dresses/looks like a female then he is going against nature!

I think the Bible is nicer than all his comments.

Actually, if you read the Bible, you would find out that what it states on these things matches what I have been saying all along! However, I have refrained from using references to the Bible and simply using logic and reasoning!

 

[respectyoda]

If you are religious, then it was God who made the human body beautiful and beauty is not filthy.

I shall only mention this because you mentioned God. Of course, God made the human body, but that doesn't mean God allows people to see the nakedness of others when there is no valid reason. This is why God had Adam and Eve clothed when they found out they were naked.

 

[Dreamer03]

Am an atheist and still think Bible is nicer than you. It is fine that you disagree but at least respect their choices. While I have not been a member for long, I have read though and met some people at some level and thye all seem to be very nice, funny, caring, the last thing that crossed my mind if "unnatural" or "wrong". Let them choose whatever heck they want, is it affecting your life? Probably not and if so move on!!! You stick to your ideals but don't try to impose them on the rest.

 

[respectyoda]

i know the risks i accept them. pass the light...

Well, if you accept the risks, then you understand you are just shortening your life.

this isnt the thread for it.

Quit avoiding answering my questions when you were the one who mentioned it in the first place!

yes i am,

Well, if you have a loved one who died, has that person come back to life?

says you. leave others alone to decide for themselves

The problem with people making decisions is that often times we human beings can direct our own steps and end up making fatal mistakes in life. It is not in man to direct his steps! This is why we need to be taught and made aware of how our decisions can adversely affect our future and that of others.

what is gender to you?

How many times do I need to repeat myself? Gender is simply biologically either male or female. Simple as that.

but we also have the faculties to disarm nature of its dictates. as we do with many things. why not here? if that what an individual chooses and wishes so be it.
freedom is a good thing

Freedom is not a good thing in many cases. Imagine if America let everyone be free without any laws being made and imposed on us Americans! There would be chaos everywhere! That's why there are laws to establish order.

but if a person chooses to keep the three arms why not?

The third arm would greatly interfere with the normal bodily functions as this is why every time there's a defect/anomaly with the human body, there is surgery to remove that defect/anomaly so that it will not cause adverse effects later on in life.

theres more to gender then just dna

There's nothing more to gender as I have stated that gender is hard coded in our DNA that defines us either as a male or a female. Simple as that!

your examples are not sound. "mathematics" and what is "right" or "wrong" within human beings are not remotely even close. one is a language set of symbols, (math), the other is morality (right or wrong).

You fail to see the underlying concept that links these concepts together. My point is that I can make a mathematical statement that is entirely false and illogical. The same can be done by claiming a certain lifestyle statement is true when it is in fact entirely illogical.

and whats th epoint in forcing people against their will to remain what they are not?

thats tyranny!!!

Quite to the contrary, people may feel they don't like being taught on certain things they feel they are comfortable with. However, what they tend to fail to understand is that these things can go against nature as it is not how things were intended to be. For example, a person may say he is comfortable with getting drunk and there's nothing wrong with it, but he fails to understand that drunkenness just brings sorrow, misery, pain, and so on.

that is YOUR religious conviction. and not mine or others. what you find to be a scandal (nakedness) i find to be a beautiful. what you find to be inappropriate thoughts i find to be nothing other then normal thoughts. lustfull thoughts are just fine..

Lustful thoughts are not fine because we are called to be in control of our mind. People have consumed upon their lustful thoughts and committed adultery, fornication, and so on in which these things only bring pain, suffering, sorrow, and so on.

 

[respectyoda]

Am an atheist and still think Bible is nicer than you. It is fine that you disagree but at least respect their choices. While I have not been a member for long, I have read though and met some people at some level and thye all seem to be very nice, funny, caring, the last thing that crossed my mind if "unnatural" or "wrong". Let them choose whatever heck they want, is it affecting your life? Probably not and if so move on!!! You stick to your ideals but don't try to impose them on the rest.

It is ironic that you are an atheist and yet, you are mentioning the word - Bible. What is your basis for claiming the Bible is nicer than me when you don't even believe in it?

A lot of people don't question things in life whether they are good or not. This is why we have to be taught on those things in order to lead a better life.

 

[Dreamer03]

Probably that I have read all the Bible and studied....I don't have to belive on its words to think its nicer. But all I am saying is that try not to agree with everyone just respect their choices. Whether you think they are right or wrong. And even fi they are right or wrong. Ok...maybe I should stop wrting on this thread cuz my moodiness is getting to me....

 

[Foxrac]

Foxrac, have I stated anything relevant to the Bible in this thread? I think not.

Yes, much of your argument are influenced from bible book because homosexuality and transsexuality are sin and immoral - that where you put those into your argument.

*hit my head* is actually expression - you and I argued and expressed my disagreement with you so you just *hit* my head with your bible book because I don't agree with you and you see my lifestyle as immoral. It is more sense of humor but I know you aren't going hit me in real life because Yoda doesn't like to see people hit other.

I'm not going hate you because of your anti-homosexuality and anti-transsexuality stance because hate is really powerful word. I admitted that I found your statement is comical - that made me chuckle.

It doesn't change my lifestyle, thorough.

 

[Foxrac]

It is ironic that you are an atheist and yet, you are mentioning the word - Bible. What is your basis for claiming the Bible is nicer than me when you don't even believe in it?

A lot of people don't question things in life whether they are good or not. This is why we have to be taught on those things in order to lead a better life.

I know atheists read bible book as reference so they can refute the argument.

I found some atheists are smart about religions.

 

[Saavik]

Sex can be defined as "either the male or female division of a species." Hence, the reason why I was talking about how if one is born a male, that individual will always be a male no matter how he tries to act/look like a female.

You may think what you do doesn't/shouldn't affect the lives of others, but in actuality, our actions do affect others! When people do things against nature, people will see that and be affected by it. They will then either question it or go after those things out of sheer curiosity.

You may not care if others smoke tobacco/cigarettes, drink alcohol, and so on. But I do care because these things are not what makes one truly happy in life as they diminish the value of life. If someone is doing unhealthy and we care about that person, we would encourage that person to stop doing that certain action that is unhealthy. Simply because we want to help that person have a better life health-wise.

I was actually using this phrase throughout this thread: "...against nature..." This means according to the online dictionary something nature unnatural or immoral. I was discussing the inherent characteristics of a human being biological-wise. For example, I have stated that if one person is biologically a male, then by nature, this person is a male. Now, if this male dresses/looks like a female then he is going against nature!

Again, sex is found between the legs, which means a penis or vagina. Gender is not to be confused with sex. I also feel you missed my point, you, like many other moral crusaders don't truly understand the issue and you really can't, because you're experience is philosophical and not experience in the sense that you're experiencing it by living it (You know, that pesky thing called first hand experience).

You are aware sex can be changed to match one's gender, in case your world is so closed off from this kind of information, allow me to link it anyway.

Sex reassignment surgery - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I can also provide pictures if you'd like?

What I do with my life only affects me, and if I'm wrong, how does it affect you? Does it suddenly and instantly turn you gay or something? I think it just scares you that people don't have to be restricted to living with a birth defect.

So you can measure happiness of others now? What orifice of your body did you pull that crystal ball from? Do you believe in a truly free society? If so, then you can't make a valid argument for forcing people to do things they don't want, to include things that are unhealthy. Again it's their life, not yours, it's their choice, not yours.. Unless you are in fact authoritarian, because screw freedom, when you know what's best for everyone.

Life sucks for many people, maybe if you want people to of their own free will to be healthier, we can start with helping people along the path they would like in life, not create a path and a set of arbitrary rules for them to blindly follow.

One last thing before I'm done with this thread, **** your definition of nature and your strict interpretation of how we should live by it. I'm legally female, living life as female and working toward further measures. I'm already against your definition of nature, so what are you going to do in your idealised world, kill me in the name of some bullshit naturalist purity?

Don't even bother replying to me, I'm out of here. Way to hijack a thread and totally derail it. How an admin or moderator hasn't corrected this yet, I cannot fathom.