Kicking a Christian out for... being a Christian?

saywhatkid said:
If a church decides it does not want to allow gays, is that governed by US law? Should it be? If the Augusta Golf Club can ban women, why does a church not have the same allowances, if not more?
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No, it is not, and should not be. But it is STILL bigotry and ignorance. The same goes for the case of the Augusta Golf Club (no surprise there: just a club for the good ol boys), except now we're talking sexism.

I don't see why any of this matters. The case cited by the OP deals with a Christian fraternity at an academic institution. That is not the same thing as a church, "The Church," etc.
 
saywhatkid said:
So I am bigoted because I asked whether a church should be required to admit people based on US laws? Are you insinuating I am a homophobe? Walk carefully here. I got family members batting for the Rainbow team.
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I identified a slant to your initial post. Though you were posing a question, I believe your question was for rhetorical purposes. I suspect you condone the actions of the fraternity because of your own religious beliefs.

That you have gay family members (jeeze, who doesn't :roll:) has absolutely nothing to do with whether you may be a homophobe or not. I don't believe you to be one, but if my suspicion about your support for the fraternity is correct, then I would say you have chosen to align on the side of ignorance and bigotry in this instance.

Well?
 
Reba said:
I thought that colleges have to approve the by-laws of campus organizations in the first place. :dunno:
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Which is why I would like to see the by-laws of that fraternity that justified asking the gay student to resign.
 
saywhatkid said:
So Alabama would not try to enforce segregation laws on the ficticious "Tuesday Morning Baptist Church Bingo Players" group, for example? That the group by-laws would be sufficient?
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I'm not sure what you're asking.

The state of Alabama? What segregation laws? What does segregation have to do with a fictitious "Tuesday Morning Baptist Church Bingo Players?" Are they supposed to be a campus organization, or a church organization?

Our Baptist church doesn't play bingo, so this is foreign to me. :lol:
 
There was a by-law that actually stated: NO GAYS ALLOWED!

????
 
Is there a difference between a church and a campus organization? Can a church do whatever they want while the campus organization much abide by the non-discrimination by laws?
 
TheWriteAlex said:
...Addendum: The separation of church and state does not mean the church is exempt from the laws of government. Nobody (in theory) is above the law. What it means is that no church beliefs or doctrine shall influence the creation or carrying out of laws that govern the people. This was a ridiculous question, and you know it.
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"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...."

It doesn't say anything about how laws are created or enforced, other than those laws can't establish a religion or prohibit people from practicing religion.

Basically, the amendment tells the government to stay out of religion.
 
Daredevel7 said:
Is there a difference between a church and a campus organization? Can a church do whatever they want while the campus organization much abide by the non-discrimination by laws?
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The church can do whatever they want in it's own internal structure and bylaws because they are a private entity not falling under the jurisdiction of a larger organization. A campus organization must abide by the laws and guidelines of the academic institution to which it is OFFICIALLY affiliated.

There are plenty of fraternities that do not abide by an academic institution's guidelines. Because of this, they do not have official recognition by the institution, cannot claim affiliation, do not receive funds, are not allowed access to university facilities, etc. etc. They are known as "rogues."
 
saywhatkid said:
If a church decides it does not want to allow gays, is that governed by US law? Should it be? If the Augusta Golf Club can ban women, why does a church not have the same allowances, if not more?
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The First Amendment prohibits the government from getting involved in churches.
 
Reba said:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...."

It doesn't say anything about how laws are created or enforced, other than those laws can't establish a religion or prohibit people from practicing religion.

Basically, the amendment tells the government to stay out of religion.
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It works both ways, and historical interpretation indicates that.
 
TheWriteAlex said:
The church can do whatever they want in it's own internal structure and bylaws because they are a private entity not falling under the jurisdiction of a larger organization. A campus organization must abide by the laws and guidelines of the academic institution to which it is OFFICIALLY affiliated.

There are plenty of fraternities that do not abide by an academic institution's guidelines. Because of this, they do not have official recognition by the institution, cannot claim affiliation, do not receive funds, are not allowed access to university facilities, etc. etc. They are known as "rogues."
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That's what I thought. Thanks!
 
saywhatkid said:
A Christian, by virtue of their faith, must share the Good News. It means they will go into the lion's den if needed; think planned parenthood clinics. That was my thinking here, that the Christian would join in order to offer opposing views, that might cause an evolutionist to consider other possibilities. Since it was a Christian group that removed a gay member, it would work the other way, that they are rejecting someone that they feel is bringing sinful thoughts into their midst. If you are not religious, none of this makes sense to you. It looks like a selfish act.

BTW, since there is a law that calls for separating church and state, does that mean a church must be subject to laws of this nature? Or are they free to be their own government in church activities?
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This was a college, not a church.

There is a fine line here. A Christian is free to witness to anyone receptive to what they have to say. However, they cannot engage in harrassing activities in order to witness. Others have just as much right not to be witnessed to as Christians do to witness.

If the purpose of a club is to promote, investigate, and examine a particular and specific area of study, as in a science club, then they have the right to expect that their members will abide by those activities that accomplish that. One joins a club to engage in activities with others of like mind. There are bylines that specify the purpose of the club and the expected behavior of club members. The right to expect that from all members is not unreasonable.

Likewise, sexual orientation should not be used as reason to dismiss someone from an organization. As hard as some find it to believe, there are homosexuals who identify as Christian, and practice their religion with every bit as much devotion and reverence as does a heterosexual Christian. Unless that homosexual is engaging, within the confines of that club, in a way that disrupts the activities of that club, then their sexual orientation is not a concern.
 
TheWriteAlex said:
I identified a slant to your initial post. Though you were posing a question, I believe your question was for rhetorical purposes. I suspect you condone the actions of the fraternity because of your own religious beliefs.

That you have gay family members (jeeze, who doesn't :roll:) has absolutely nothing to do with whether you may be a homophobe or not. I don't believe you to be one, but if my suspicion about your support for the fraternity is correct, then I would say you have chosen to align on the side of ignorance and bigotry in this instance.

Well?
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I don't support the fraternity decision because they are governed by laws that require them to allow gays to join. OK?

Do I think a fraternity can ban gays? No.

Do I think a private group or church can ban gays? Yes.

Do I think it is right? I have mixed feelings. Not sure I can answer that. I don't have a personal dislike of homosexuals. That much I am certain of.
 
jillio said:
This was a college, not a church.

There is a fine line here. A Christian is free to witness to anyone receptive to what they have to say. However, they cannot engage in harrassing activities in order to witness. Others have just as much right not to be witnessed to as Christians do to witness.

If the purpose of a club is to promote, investigate, and examine a particular and specific area of study, as in a science club, then they have the right to expect that their members will abide by those activities that accomplish that. One joins a club to engage in activities with others of like mind. There are bylines that specify the purpose of the club and the expected behavior of club members. The right to expect that from all members is not unreasonable.

Likewise, sexual orientation should not be used as reason to dismiss someone from an organization. As hard as some find it to believe, there are homosexuals who identify as Christian, and practice their religion with every bit as much devotion and reverence as does a heterosexual Christian. Unless that homosexual is engaging, within the confines of that club, in a way that disrupts the activities of that club, then their sexual orientation is not a concern.
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Right. I am aware of where it took place. I threw out a hypothetical question regarding how this would be viewed if done by a church. Simple enough?
 
Daredevel7 said:
Is there a difference between a church and a campus organization? Can a church do whatever they want while the campus organization much abide by the non-discrimination by laws?
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That is exactly what I am asking. :wave:
 
Reba said:
I'm not sure what you're asking.

The state of Alabama? What segregation laws? What does segregation have to do with a fictitious "Tuesday Morning Baptist Church Bingo Players?" Are they supposed to be a campus organization, or a church organization?

Our Baptist church doesn't play bingo, so this is foreign to me. :lol:
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It was a hypothetical church/group/situation. If the "TMBCBP" group, totally under the bylaws of the church, decided to restrict membership to only practicing Baptists, would they be permitted by Alabama to carry out this?
 
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