Kicking a Christian out for... being a Christian?

jillio said:
Agreed. I question his motives in joining, and I do think there must be a bit more to the story. These groups have rules and bylines for membership. I suspect he probably violated a few.
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I agree but I decided to remain neutral till DD came back.
 
Beowulf said:
Something smells fishy.
Link?
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You are correct.

I did fib in the OP. Before anyone gets mad and bans me or something, I'd like to explain myself.

I did read an article about Vanderbilt forcing all student organizations to not discriminate against a person due to an incident similar to this one. Instead of a scientist group kicking out a Christian, it was really a Christian fraternity kicking out a gay person.

The column that I read this morning: Diversity's Compulsory Conformity - Opinion - PatriotPost.US

A bit more information:
Vanderbilt Says Christian Groups Must Amend Club Constitutions | TheBlaze.com

Why did I change the story?

A few reasons:
1) There has been quite enough talk about gay people in this thread lately. Just wanted to focus on the issue of forcing groups to NOT discriminate.

2) We see gay people getting kicked out of things all the time (military, churches, etc) and I'm sure it's been discussed before. Time for something different.

3) Initially, I was for the Christian fraternity's side. Why should any organization be forced to accept any person they don't want? It doesn't make sense. If a group doesn't want me, why would I want to be part of that group?

4) Then I tried changing the tables. I thought up of the scenario in the OP for the closest analogy without using gay people. (I'm sure my analogy itself is debatable, but it was the best I could come up with at 7am). There is a surprising amount of gay people who are Christians, just as there are Christians who believe in evolution, even though, to some people, those 2 types of people seem to be mutually exclusive.

From what I've read, it seems like the fraternity asked him to resign ONLY because he was gay. So it doesn't seem he DID anything to spark this resignation.

I thought it was interesting that most people in this thread thought there was more to the story. That the Christian must have done something bad to get kicked out. As if it's almost impossible for a Christian to be discriminated.

And yet.. if I posted the truth in the first place.... would anyone even doubt the story?

I also thought it was interesting that most people here were on the Christian's side (IF he didn't do anything bad), even though AD has been labeled "a liberal place filled with people who make fun of Christians/religions".

Sorry for lying in the first place, but I thought this thread had some very interesting responses.

Personally, I don't think it's fair to kick someone out just because of who they are. It's only fair to kick someone out because of what they DO.

I actually would be fine if the Christian fraternity kicked him out because he was engaging in sexual activity because they supposedly do that for straight guys, too. However, I didn't see anything about the person engaging in sexual activity.
 
jillio said:
So, we answered appropriately, then.:giggle:
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If someone said "Well I don't think Christians should be part of a science group. They are wrong and think wrong!", I would have called them out on it.

But.. turns out that liberals are not actually THAT bad....
 
Daredevel7 said:
If someone said "Well I don't think Christians should be part of a science group. They are wrong and think wrong!", I would have called them out on it.

But.. turns out that liberals are not actually THAT bad....
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Shhh...there are a few die hard conservatives that would be happy to lynch you over that statement!:giggle:
 
A Christian, by virtue of their faith, must share the Good News. It means they will go into the lion's den if needed; think planned parenthood clinics. That was my thinking here, that the Christian would join in order to offer opposing views, that might cause an evolutionist to consider other possibilities. Since it was a Christian group that removed a gay member, it would work the other way, that they are rejecting someone that they feel is bringing sinful thoughts into their midst. If you are not religious, none of this makes sense to you. It looks like a selfish act.

BTW, since there is a law that calls for separating church and state, does that mean a church must be subject to laws of this nature? Or are they free to be their own government in church activities?
 
Daredevel7 said:
You are correct.

I did fib in the OP. Before anyone gets mad and bans me or something, I'd like to explain myself.

I did read an article about Vanderbilt forcing all student organizations to not discriminate against a person due to an incident similar to this one. Instead of a scientist group kicking out a Christian, it was really a Christian fraternity kicking out a gay person.

The column that I read this morning: Diversity's Compulsory Conformity - Opinion - PatriotPost.US

A bit more information:
Vanderbilt Says Christian Groups Must Amend Club Constitutions | TheBlaze.com

Why did I change the story?

A few reasons:
1) There has been quite enough talk about gay people in this thread lately. Just wanted to focus on the issue of forcing groups to NOT discriminate.

2) We see gay people getting kicked out of things all the time (military, churches, etc) and I'm sure it's been discussed before. Time for something different.

3) Initially, I was for the Christian fraternity's side. Why should any organization be forced to accept any person they don't want? It doesn't make sense. If a group doesn't want me, why would I want to be part of that group?

4) Then I tried changing the tables. I thought up of the scenario in the OP for the closest analogy without using gay people. (I'm sure my analogy itself is debatable, but it was the best I could come up with at 7am). There is a surprising amount of gay people who are Christians, just as there are Christians who believe in evolution, even though, to some people, those 2 types of people seem to be mutually exclusive.

From what I've read, it seems like the fraternity asked him to resign ONLY because he was gay. So it doesn't seem he DID anything to spark this resignation.

I thought it was interesting that most people in this thread thought there was more to the story. That the Christian must have done something bad to get kicked out. As if it's almost impossible for a Christian to be discriminated.

And yet.. if I posted the truth in the first place.... would anyone even doubt the story?

I also thought it was interesting that most people here were on the Christian's side (IF he didn't do anything bad), even though AD has been labeled "a liberal place filled with people who make fun of Christians/religions".

Sorry for lying in the first place, but I thought this thread had some very interesting responses.

Personally, I don't think it's fair to kick someone out just because of who they are. It's only fair to kick someone out because of what they DO.

I actually would be fine if the Christian fraternity kicked him out because he was engaging in sexual activity because they supposedly do that for straight guys, too. However, I didn't see anything about the person engaging in sexual activity.
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The reason I thought there must be more to the story is because I know plenty of christians who do believe in evolution (in fact, one might say the majority of them believe in it) and find it highly dubious that a Christian would be kicked out of a society about evolution JUST because he's a Christian. There had to be more to the story.

As for the Christian fraternity kicking out a guy JUST because he's gay and not because he committed an offence, that's very different and it is discrimination. He didn't join the fraternity to debate their Christianity, it seems he joined because like them, he's too a Christian.

If one were to kick out members for what they deem as unchristian behaviour they might as well kick out everyone who fibs, steals, creates any likeness of what is in the heaven above or in the earth beneath (God and Satan), commits adultery, works on Sabbath, or covets' neighbour's house, wife, or anything that is your neighbour's or take the Lord's name in vain (i.e. "oh my god")Those are all violations of the 10 Commandments, interestingly enough, homosexuality is not listed as one of them.
 
DeafCaroline said:
The reason I thought there must be more to the story is because I know plenty of christians who do believe in evolution (in fact, one might say the majority of them believe in it) and find it highly dubious that a Christian would be kicked out of a society about evolution JUST because he's a Christian. There had to be more to the story.

As for the Christian fraternity kicking out a guy JUST because he's gay and not because he committed an offence, that's very different and it is discrimination. He didn't join the fraternity to debate their Christianity, it seems he joined because like them, he's too a Christian.

If one were to kick out members for what they deem as unchristian behaviour they might as well kick out everyone who fibs, steals, creates any likeness of what is in the heaven above or in the earth beneath (God and Satan), commits adultery, works on Sabbath, or covets' neighbour's house, wife, or anything that is your neighbour's or take the Lord's name in vain (i.e. "oh my god")Those are all violations of the 10 Commandments, interestingly enough, homosexuality is not listed as one of them.
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Are they to be governed by laws? Is there only separation when it favors the non-Christians? You know: "Keep your Bible out of our classrooms" stuff.
 
saywhatkid said:
Are they to be governed by laws? Is there only separation when it favors the non-Christians? You know: "Keep your Bible out of our classrooms" stuff.
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Interesting question - while in Alabama - the news were talking about the protest over silent prayers at football games and how even when the moment of silence was put into effect, one could hear parents praying out loud. I think in such cases, when the overwhelming majority of parents prefer to recite the Lord's Prayer over the moment of silence, that like democracy - the majority vote should win.

However, if we were talking about the Lord's Prayer in say, the province of Ontario, which has a greater variety of cultural and religious groups, that the moment of silence would have been preferred. In grade six, we did the Lord's Prayer every morning. The whole class was Christian or at least majority was. In High school, where the school population was a mix of Christian, Moslem, Buddhist and Jewish, then the Lord's Prayer would not have been enforced, quite understandably. That doesn't mean Christian students can't congregate and recite the Lord's Prayer on their own before class begins if they wanted to.
 
Whatever group one joins, one is required to follow the by-laws of that group.

If a member is found to have lied about following the by-laws, or is caught not following the by-laws, then that person should be removed from the membership.

It all depends on the by-laws of the organization.
 
saywhatkid said:
A Christian, by virtue of their faith, must share the Good News. It means they will go into the lion's den if needed; think planned parenthood clinics. That was my thinking here, that the Christian would join in order to offer opposing views, that might cause an evolutionist to consider other possibilities. Since it was a Christian group that removed a gay member, it would work the other way, that they are rejecting someone that they feel is bringing sinful thoughts into their midst. If you are not religious, none of this makes sense to you. It looks like a selfish act.

BTW, since there is a law that calls for separating church and state, does that mean a church must be subject to laws of this nature? Or are they free to be their own government in church activities?
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Not all Christian sects require proselytization. As for those who do proselytize, they must accept the consequences of trying to convert others to their religion.

The evolutionist is likely to be quite well versed in science especially biology or other related fields and quite often in Christianity - if not always- as well.
As for the evolutionists, they would be understandably annoyed at the Christian's attempts to convert them to a religion that stresses faith over reason -especially if they have requested that the Christian stop proselytizing several times over. If the Christian ignores the requests, he must accept that he could get kicked out.

As for the separation of Church and State, my interpretation has always been that the government should not favor any one religion be it be Judaism, Christianity, Wicca, Buddhism or any other reglions. Likewise, no religion or coalition of religions may try to influence the government to impose religious law over it's citizens.
 
Reba said:
Whatever group one joins, one is required to follow the by-laws of that group.

If a member is found to have lied about following the by-laws, or is caught not following the by-laws, then that person should be removed from the membership.

It all depends on the by-laws of the organization.
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I would like to see the by-laws of that Christian Fraternity.

Edit: I just found this article and it's very interesting - gay student violates Christian fraternity's rules - Christian fraternity violates' college's non-discrimination policy. Who's right?

http://www.worldoncampus.com/article/hot_on_campus/2011/09/fighting_for_autonomy_free_exercise
 
Reba said:
Whatever group one joins, one is required to follow the by-laws of that group.

If a member is found to have lied about following the by-laws, or is caught not following the by-laws, then that person should be removed from the membership.

It all depends on the by-laws of the organization.
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So Alabama would not try to enforce segregation laws on the ficticious "Tuesday Morning Baptist Church Bingo Players" group, for example? That the group by-laws would be sufficient?
 
saywhatkid said:
So Alabama would not try to enforce segregation laws on the ficticious "Tuesday Morning Baptist Church Bingo Players" group, for example? That the group by-laws would be sufficient?
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what kind of segregation laws are you referring to? If the fictitious Baptist Church itself does not ban gay members, then any bingo group created by that church cannot ban gay members either for they would be violating the church's policy.
 
saywhatkid said:
A Christian, by virtue of their faith, must share the Good News. It means they will go into the lion's den if needed; think planned parenthood clinics. That was my thinking here, that the Christian would join in order to offer opposing views, that might cause an evolutionist to consider other possibilities. Since it was a Christian group that removed a gay member, it would work the other way, that they are rejecting someone that they feel is bringing sinful thoughts into their midst. If you are not religious, none of this makes sense to you. It looks like a selfish act.

BTW, since there is a law that calls for separating church and state, does that mean a church must be subject to laws of this nature? Or are they free to be their own government in church activities?
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I'm sure you think you're offering some food for thought here, but more than a few of us a smart enough to see what you are really trying to do with this sort of slanted post. Can you just refrain from it? Mmmkaythnx.

Addendum: The separation of church and state does not mean the church is exempt from the laws of government. Nobody (in theory) is above the law. What it means is that no church beliefs or doctrine shall influence the creation or carrying out of laws that govern the people. This was a ridiculous question, and you know it.
 
TheWriteAlex said:
I'm sure you think you're offering some food for thought here, but more than a few of us a smart enough to see what you are really trying to do with this sort of slanted post. Can you just refrain from it? Mmmkaythnx.
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Your bitterness over any religious opinion is an eye-opener. Since expressing your views is allowed un-impeded, it makes for a pretty one-sided debate. Intelligence does not = smart. Good luck.
 
saywhatkid said:
Your bitterness over any religious opinion is an eye-opener. Since expressing your views is allowed un-impeded, it makes for a pretty one-sided debate. Intelligence does not = smart. Good luck.
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My bitterness is with ignorance. Your view is invalid when it is informed by ignorance and bigotry.
 
TheWriteAlex said:
Addendum: The separation of church and state does not mean the church is exempt from the laws of government. Nobody (in theory) is above the law. What it means is that no church beliefs or doctrine shall influence the creation or carrying out of laws that govern the people. This was a ridiculous question, and you know it.
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If a church decides it does not want to allow gays, is that governed by US law? Should it be? If the Augusta Golf Club can ban women, why does a church not have the same allowances, if not more?
 
TheWriteAlex said:
My bitterness is with ignorance. Your view is invalid when it is informed by ignorance and bigotry.
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So I am bigoted because I asked whether a church should be required to admit people based on US laws? Are you insinuating I am a homophobe? Walk carefully here. I got family members batting for the Rainbow team.
 
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