Kennedy clan´s history

Liebling:-))) said:
...Yes, I would say it´s also Mary Jo´s responsiblity for her action as well for take Ted´s offer to ride her to home when she KNEW Ted is drunk and would risk her life..., don´t she? ...
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Well, now that's interesting. Now you're saying that she knew Teddy was drunk.

But previous posters stated that we don't know if Teddy was drunk.

Which was it? Can't have it both ways. :hmm:
 
Reba said:
Well, now that's interesting. Now you're saying that she knew Teddy was drunk.

But previous posters stated that we don't know if Teddy was drunk.

Which was it? Can't have it both ways. :hmm:
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It has already been substantiated historically that he had been drinking that night. Whether he tested over the legal limit is what is not known. However, as it has been substantiated that he was drinking, then she still made the choice to get in a car with someone who had been drinking behind the wheel. I suppose the concept of "designated driver" hadn't become popular in 1969. Still and all, she made the decision.

Liewise, she knew he was a married man. To paint her as a totally innocent victim of murder is to ignore the fact that she made some very unsise decisions, and as the result of those decisions, put herself in the position of being involved in a fatal accident. She wasn't the victim of a kidnap, nor was she forced into the car and the company of Ted Kennedy. She chose to be there.
 
jillio said:
... I don't recall any posters making comments like, "She shouldn't have been a an auotmoblie with a married man in the wee hours of the morning."
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...but I do recall posters stating that we don't know if he was drunk.

Which was it?

If you want to put blame on Mary Jo, you have to concede that Teddy was noticeably drunk.

If you believe that Teddy was not noticeably drunk, then you have to concede that Mary Jo was not at fault for getting in the car.


The majority have agreed that no one has all of the information into the events of that morning except the 2 that werre present, and that her family had choices, made them, and the incident has been dealt with both on a legal level and a personal level as far as the surviviors are concerned...
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I recall reading many posts at AD that agreed that the law often makes mistakes in its judgments.

Or does that only apply to death row convictions?
 
jillio said:
It has already been substantiated historically that he had been drinking that night.
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I thought you didn't accept those testimonies before?


Liewise, she knew he was a married man. To paint her as a totally innocent victim of murder is to ignore the fact that she made some very unsise decisions, and as the result of those decisions, put herself in the position of being involved in a fatal accident. She wasn't the victim of a kidnap, nor was she forced into the car and the company of Ted Kennedy. She chose to be there.
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Not that you're making a moral judgment against Mary Jo but are you saying that Mary Jo deserved to die a horrible death because she was guilty of immorality?

I see.
 
Reba said:
...but I do recall posters stating that we don't know if he was drunk.

Which was it?

If you want to put blame on Mary Jo, you have to concede that Teddy was noticeably drunk.

If you believe that Teddy was not noticeably drunk, then you have to concede that Mary Jo was not at fault for getting in the car.



I recall reading many posts at AD that agreed that the law often makes mistakes in its judgments.

Or does that only apply to death row convictions?
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No one is placing blame on Mary Jo. What is being stated is that she's shares equally the choice of having been in that car at that particular moment in time. Testing over the legal limit and having consumed enough alcohol to slow one's reaction time is 2 different concepts. The had been together all evening, from my understanding, and therefore she knew he had been drinking. And what about MaryJo's alcohol intake that evening?

Yes, the law does make many errors. However, the law cannot compensate for another's free will. She willinglu got in the car with a driver that had been drinking, it was in the wee hours of the morning, and he was a married man. Quite possible that she has some ulterior motives that clouded her better judgement, in much the same way that other young women have let the desire for fame and fortune lead them into very unwise decisions.
 
Reba said:
I thought you didn't accept those testimonies before?



Not that you're making a moral judgment against Mary Jo but are you saying that Mary Jo deserved to die a horrible death because she was guilty of immorality?

I see.
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No where do you see that I refused to accept the fact that he had been drinking. I refused to accept that his blood alcohol level was definately over the legal limit without testing to substantiate that.

No, that's not what I am saying at all, but nice try. I am saying that MaryJo made decisions that placed her at risk for being involved in a fatal accident. Had she not made the decision to get in a car with a married man that had been drinking in the wee hours of the morning, then she would not have placed herself in the position of being involved in an accident that took her life.

And, no, I'm not making a moral judgement against MaryJo. I haven't made a judgement against her moral character at all. No where have I stated that she was amoral. I quite simply and accurately stated that she made the decisions that placed her in that position at that time. The morality behind her making those particular decisions is not known to any of us. But what we do know, is that she made them.
 
Liebling:-))) said:
Well, take a look at jew people who live in Germany and forgave Nazi what and how they did to them. They forgave and move on...
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Have you forgotten that even though individuals forgave the Nazis, they still had to face justice? Have you forgotten the Nuremberg trials, convictions, sentences, and executions? The Nazi war criminals had to pay their debt to society whether or not the injured parties forgave them.
 
jillio said:
No where do you see that I refused to accept the fact that he had been drinking. I refused to accept that his blood alcohol level was definately over the legal limit without testing to substantiate that.

No, that's not what I am saying at all, but nice try. I am saying that MaryJo made decisions that placed her at risk for being involved in a fatal accident. Had she not made the decision to get in a car with a married man that had been drinking in the wee hours of the morning, then she would not have placed herself in the position of being involved in an accident that took her life.
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Well, if you don't "accept that his blood alcohol level was definately over the legal limit" then why do you assume that Mary Jo knew that "his blood alcohol level was definately over the legal limit"?

Either Teddy was a drunk driver or not. You can't have it both ways just to suit your position.
 
Reba said:
Have you forgotten that even though individuals forgave the Nazis, they still had to face justice? Have you forgotten the Nuremberg trials, convictions, sentences, and executions? The Nazi war criminals had to pay their debt to society whether or not the injured parties forgave them.
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Convictions is the key word. Ted Kennedy was convicted of leaving the scene of an accident. He was sentenced accordingly.
 
jillio said:
Convictions is the key word. Ted Kennedy was convicted of leaving the scene of an accident. He was sentenced accordingly.
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The law was negligent in its prosecution. Also, he was NOT sentenced according to the guidelines of that time.
 
Reba said:
Well, if you don't "accept that his blood alcohol level was definately over the legal limit" then why do you assume that Mary Jo knew that "his blood alcohol level was definately over the legal limit"?

Either Teddy was a drunk driver or not. You can't have it both ways just to suit your position.
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Where have I said that I don't accept that his blood alcohol was over the legal limit? I said that there is no test to prove that his blood alcohol was over the legal limit. And no where did I state that Mary Jo should have known that his blood alcohol was over the legal limit. What I stated was, she had been in his company all evening and knew that he had been drinking.

As I have explained prior, one does not have to be over the legal limit for alcohol concentration to slow the reflexes. That is the whole concept behind not getting in a car with a driver than has been drinking. Drinking and drunk are two different words. They cannot necessarily be used interchangeably.

Teddy could very well have been a drinking driver without being a drunk driver as stipulated by law. Likewise, he could have just as easily been drunk as stipulated by law, but there is no test to substantiate that. But drinking or drunk, MaryJo made a decision to get in a car with someone who had been consuming a substance that impairs. Her decision, made freely. You cannot get around that fact. She wasn't an innocent victim standing on a street corner that was mowed down by a drunk driver. She willingly got in the car with a man who had been drinking.
 
Reba said:
The law was negligent in its prosecution. Also, he was NOT sentenced according to the guidelines of that time.
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What were the madatory sentencing laws for leaving the scene of an accident at the time. I do believe that judges are allowed discretion in sentencing. If you have a problem with the sentence pronounced, that is a problem with the legal system, not with Ted Kennedy.
 
Reba said:
Well, now that's interesting. Now you're saying that she knew Teddy was drunk.

But previous posters stated that we don't know if Teddy was drunk.

Which was it? Can't have it both ways. :hmm:
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Yes, we don´t know either he was quite OR heavy drunk because of his situation for neglect to save her life and also wondering why Mary Jo said yes to Ted´s offer to drive her to home when she knew he is drunkuntil your link..... ?

Would you take drunk driver´s offer to drive you home or whatever?

 
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IslandGal said:
Yes, I agree that Mary Jo shouldn't have went along with Ted if he was going to drive drunk. She knew he was drinking a lot.

Ted was very wrong to leave the scene of the accident and not reporting it until the next day but Mary Jo also made a mistake when she went along with him being drunk on that night.
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Yes, that´s right.
 
jillio said:
It has already been substantiated historically that he had been drinking that night. Whether he tested over the legal limit is what is not known. However, as it has been substantiated that he was drinking, then she still made the choice to get in a car with someone who had been drinking behind the wheel. I suppose the concept of "designated driver" hadn't become popular in 1969. Still and all, she made the decision.

Liewise, she knew he was a married man. To paint her as a totally innocent victim of murder is to ignore the fact that she made some very unsise decisions, and as the result of those decisions, put herself in the position of being involved in a fatal accident. She wasn't the victim of a kidnap, nor was she forced into the car and the company of Ted Kennedy. She chose to be there.
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Yes, I agree everything what you say. Mary Jo is an adult and make her own choice.

Media love to paint/label/spread the rumor about well-known people in negative way, that´s why we use our good common sense to positive on any negative articles.


 
Reba said:
...but I do recall posters stating that we don't know if he was drunk.

Which was it?
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Yes, we do know that he was drunk but we don´t know either he is light or heavy drunk.... Your link sounds that he was really drunk. It got us wondering why Mary Jo took his offer to drive her to home when she KNOW he is drunk?

If you want to put blame on Mary Jo, you have to concede that Teddy was noticeably drunk.

If you believe that Teddy was not noticeably drunk, then you have to concede that Mary Jo was not at fault for getting in the car.
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Nobody blames Mary Jo for her action but it´s unfair to blame Ted only. It should be have both ways, not just him.
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Reba said:
Not that you're making a moral judgment against Mary Jo but are you saying that Mary Jo deserved to die a horrible death because she was guilty of immorality?

I see.
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Please quit misinterpret our post because nobody here said that she deserved to die but we only agree that it´s her CHOICE and her responsiblity, it does the same with Ted as well. It´s unfair to negative Ted and positive Mary Jo. Get it?

Nobody knows either Mary Jo was drunk or not? She would say no to drunk driver don´t she? None written negative about her but label her fully as an innocoent etc. I guess the reason why the parents of Mary Jo refused to make it to the public? It could be the reason????
 
jillio said:
No one is placing blame on Mary Jo. What is being stated is that she's shares equally the choice of having been in that car at that particular moment in time. Testing over the legal limit and having consumed enough alcohol to slow one's reaction time is 2 different concepts. The had been together all evening, from my understanding, and therefore she knew he had been drinking. And what about MaryJo's alcohol intake that evening?

Yes, the law does make many errors. However, the law cannot compensate for another's free will. She willinglu got in the car with a driver that had been drinking, it was in the wee hours of the morning, and he was a married man. Quite possible that she has some ulterior motives that clouded her better judgement, in much the same way that other young women have let the desire for fame and fortune lead them into very unwise decisions.
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Yes that´s what I thought so.
 
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