Jesus Wasn't Gods Only Son

[Maria]

Even if the book is a work of fiction, there are some basis in it.
If a book was written about Paris which is obviously fiction, but it doesn't mean that Paris doesn't exist.

DaVinci Code Breaker
http://www.davinci-code-breaker.com/

 

[Reba]

http://www.llewellynjournal.com/article/659

This is an extremely interesting read on the gnostic beliefs of Jesus and Mary.
This was also discussed in the book "The DaVinci Code" which I have read. There are many examples of "The Last Supper" that shows a woman on Jesus' side. Why would the female figure be there in the first place anyhow?

There is no woman in the painting of the Last Supper by Da Vinci. Twelve disciples of Jesus. Count them, 12. They were all men. Where is the woman?

http://www.punctum.com/kirche/konfi/art/bouts.jpg
Shows a female figure to Jesus' left.

http://www.tostai.lt/avatars/jahrhunderts-abendmahl.jpg
We see a female figure on Jesus' lap at this image.

http://www.rollins.edu/Foreign_Lang/Russian/uslast.jpg
A Russian version shows a female figure to Jesus' left.

I don't see any women in any of these versions of the Last Supper. I see Jesus and the 12 disciples. One picture shows a few other guys standing behind them. But no women.

Are you guys seeing things?

 

[Reba]

Even if the book is a work of fiction, there are some basis in it.
If a book was written about Paris which is obviously fiction, but it doesn't mean that Paris doesn't exist.

The original novel "The Wizard of Oz" took place in Kansas but that doesn't mean Oz is a real place. So what? One doesn't prove or disprove anything in a book of fiction, even if 99% of it is historically accurate (which the "DaVinci Code" is not).

 

[VamPyroX]

http://www.llewellynjournal.com/article/659

This is an extremely interesting read on the gnostic beliefs of Jesus and Mary.
This was also discussed in the book "The DaVinci Code" which I have read. There are many examples of "The Last Supper" that shows a woman on Jesus' side. Why would the female figure be there in the first place anyhow?

http://www.punctum.com/kirche/konfi/art/bouts.jpg
Shows a female figure to Jesus' left.

http://www.tostai.lt/avatars/jahrhunderts-abendmahl.jpg
We see a female figure on Jesus' lap at this image.

http://www.rollins.edu/Foreign_Lang/Russian/uslast.jpg
A Russian version shows a female figure to Jesus' left.

I wouldn't dismiss it as wild rumours or "illogical" rumours as you stated it.

I also posted a link to a painting done by Leonardo DaVinci. It's got the same thing. Heh!

 

[VamPyroX]

There is no woman in the painting of the Last Supper by Da Vinci. Twelve disciples of Jesus. Count them, 12. They were all men. Where is the woman?


I don't see any women in any of these versions of the Last Supper. I see Jesus and the 12 disciples. One picture shows a few other guys standing behind them. But no women.

Are you guys seeing things?

If you look at the person sitting next to Jesus, you'll see that it's a female.

 

[Reba]

If you look at the person sitting next to Jesus, you'll see that it's a female.

No, that is a Renaissance artist's conception of an event that happened 1,400 years prior, and applying his cultural and personal interpretation. It is not a contemporary news photo from Time magazine. If you were familiar with Renaissance art, you would know the difference between a depiction of a man and a woman.

Luke 24:14
"And when the hour was come, he [Jesus] sat down, and the twelve apostles with him."

Mark 14:17
"And in the evening he [Jesus] cometh with the twelve."

Matthew 26:20
"Now when the even was come, he [Jesus] sat down with the twelve."

John 13:22-25
"Then the disciples looked one on another, doubting of whom he [Jesus] spake. Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved. Simon Peter therefore beckoned to him, that he should ask who it should be of whom he spake. He then lying on Jesus' breast saith unto him, Lord, who is it?"

 

[kuifje75]

Are you guys seeing things?

In one of the pictures I showed, there is only one person who is wearing a white shawl-like on her shoulder to Jesus' left. No other "men" are wearing that. Strikes me as ironic that you just don't see it.

 

[Maria]

Who was Mary Magdalene?

Question: "Who was Mary Magdalene?"

Answer: Mary Magdalene was a woman from whom Jesus cast out seven demons (Luke 8:2). The name Magdalene likely indicates that she came from Magdala, a city on the southwest coast of the Sea of Galilee. After Jesus cast seven demons from her, she became one of His followers.

Mary Magdalene has been associated with the "woman in the city who was a sinner" (Luke 7:37) who washed Jesus' feet, but there is no scriptural basis for this. The city of Magdala did have a reputation for prostitution. This information, coupled with the fact that Luke first mentions Mary Magdalene immediately following his account of the sinful woman (Luke 7:36-50), has led some to equate the two women. John 11:2, though, identifies the women in Luke 7:36-50 as Mary of Bethany, not Mary Magdalene.

Mary Magdalene is also often associated with the woman whom Jesus saved from stoning after she had been taken in adultery (John 8:1-11) - again an association with no evidence. The movie “The Passion of the Christ” made this connection. This view is possible, but not explicitly taught in the Bible.

Mary Magdalene witnessed most of the events surrounding the crucifixion. She was present at the mock trial of Jesus; she heard Pontius Pilate pronounce the death sentence; and she saw Jesus beaten and humiliated by the crowd. She was one of the women who stood near Jesus during the crucifixion to try to comfort Him. The earliest witness to the resurrection of Jesus, she was sent by Jesus to tell the others (John 20:11-18). Although this is the last mention of her in the Bible, she was probably among the women who gathered with the apostles to await the promised coming of the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:14).

The recent fiction novel “The DaVinci Code” makes the claim that Jesus and Mary Magdalene were married. Some of the non-Biblical early Christian writings (that were considered heresy by the early Christians) hint at a special relationship between Mary Magdalene and Jesus. However, there is no evidence whatsoever to support the belief that Jesus and Mary Magdalene were married. The Bible does not even hint at such an idea. Surely if Jesus had been married the Bible would have told us so. See - http://www.gotquestions.org/was-Jesus-married.html

http://www.gotquestions.org/Mary-Magdalene.html

 

[Liza]

the story goes that God sacrificed his only son, Jesus so that we would all believe that there was a God and follow him.
i thought we were ALL Gods children. so.....if we're ALL Gods children then im God's son also....
so...Jesus wasn't God's only son. so why do they consider jesus the only son of god?

Without any personal offense intended to folks who believe in the conventional theology, a line of new age belief has it that we all are Jesuses and I believe the first Jesus just wanted to teach us to be like him - and that his intention wasn't to be glorified so none would be like him because they don't feel good enough. It's just interesting to see how differently beliefs are in this department.

 

[Liza]

Has anybody heard of the Dead Sea Scrolls?

 

[Reba]

In one of the pictures I showed, there is only one person who is wearing a white shawl-like on her shoulder to Jesus' left. No other "men" are wearing that. Strikes me as ironic that you just don't see it.

Sigh...have you ever taken an art appreciation course, or studied classical art? Do you know anything about historical culture? Do you know that a painting is art, NOT "live news video"? Did you not read the Bible verses that describe the Last Supper?

In each of the paintings you reference, none of those figures looks like an ancient Hebrew woman as depicted by a Renaisance painter. Compare paintings of women done at that time in similar settings. They don't dress the same as the men. They usually have their heads covered. Their facial features are different from the men's. Women (even wives) didn't sit at dinner with the men. They served the men, and then ate later, separately. Men commonly wore "shawls"; have you ever seen Orthodox or Hasidic Jewish men wearing their prayer shawls?

If you get your "history" from paintings, then I guess you would also believe a painting if it showed FDR shaking hands with an alien and Hitler in a dress.

It is rather amusing (and sad at the same time) that you are willing to "believe in" some guy's interpretation of a painting, but not believe the Word of God.

 

[Reba]

Has anybody heard of the Dead Sea Scrolls?

Yes.

 

[Liza]

Sigh...have you ever taken an art appreciation course, or studied classical art? Do you know anything about historical culture? Do you know that a painting is art, NOT "live news video"? Did you not read the Bible verses that describe the Last Supper?

In each of the paintings you reference, none of those figures looks like an ancient Hebrew woman as depicted by a Renaisance painter. Compare paintings of women done at that time in similar settings. They don't dress the same as the men. They usually have their heads covered. Their facial features are different from the men's. Women (even wives) didn't sit at dinner with the men. They served the men, and then ate later, separately. Men commonly wore "shawls"; have you ever seen Orthodox or Hasidic Jewish men wearing their prayer shawls?

If you get your "history" from paintings, then I guess you would also believe a painting if it showed FDR shaking hands with an alien and Hitler in a dress.

It is rather amusing (and sad at the same time) that you are willing to "believe in" some guy's interpretation of a painting, but not believe the Word of God.

Reba, your comments bothers me because I think you were being a bit conscending with Kuifje75 - assuming he is not intelligent enough if he doesn't share the same beliefs. I just feel that this is a very subjective subject, and because you are entitled to your beliefs.. I appreciate your willingness to live in your integrity. Is there room for other beliefs in this discussion?

 

[kuifje75]

Sigh...have you ever taken an art appreciation course, or studied classical art? Do you know anything about historical culture? Do you know that a painting is art, NOT "live news video"? Did you not read the Bible verses that describe the Last Supper?

In each of the paintings you reference, none of those figures looks like an ancient Hebrew woman as depicted by a Renaisance painter. Compare paintings of women done at that time in similar settings. They don't dress the same as the men. They usually have their heads covered. Their facial features are different from the men's. Women (even wives) didn't sit at dinner with the men. They served the men, and then ate later, separately. Men commonly wore "shawls"; have you ever seen Orthodox or Hasidic Jewish men wearing their prayer shawls?

If you get your "history" from paintings, then I guess you would also believe a painting if it showed FDR shaking hands with an alien and Hitler in a dress.

It is rather amusing (and sad at the same time) that you are willing to "believe in" some guy's interpretation of a painting, but not believe the Word of God.

Who said I believed in anything? I am only presenting some artwork and what people for the sake of argument. My belief has nothing to do with all of these. It's all in the art of debate. No need to go into condencing tones, just because you think you are an authority on the subject and refusing to hear the other sides of the argument whilst maintaining your own beliefs.

As for your comments about women sitting separately from men, you are right. However, have you considered that Jesus may have tried to change that by including everyone in the table and making everyone equals? Some people might say that Jesus was a "feminist." Some churches still do not believe in mixing the sexes on the pews. One side for men other for women. Today, we take it for granted that it is ok for men and women to sit together in churches.

 

[Reba]

I will try one more time. How many people are seated at the table in the paintings of the Last Supper? Thirteen? OK. Jesus plus 12 disciples equals 13. There is not a 14th person, male or female. All the Scriptures refer to Jesus "and the 12" attending the supper. All the paintings show 13 people, Jesus "and the 12". Whatever theology you believe, whatever novel you follow, there were still only 13 men at the last supper in the paintings. Simple math.

My beliefs don't depend on paintings. I hope no one else depends on paintings for their beliefs either. I am just trying to apply logic to some illogical statements. If there are no women in the paintings, why should I agree that there are? It doesn't make sense.

No, I don't think that I know everything. But I do have eyes that can see, and I can count up to 13.

 

[Maria]

Reba, your comments bothers me because I think you were being a bit conscending with Kuifje75 - assuming he is not intelligent enough if he doesn't share the same beliefs. I just feel that this is a very subjective subject, and because you are entitled to your beliefs.. I appreciate your willingness to live in your integrity. Is there room for other beliefs in this discussion?

Well, I have to say that I agree with Reba since we both know what the fact is. The fact is that there's no woman sittin' besided Jesus at the Last Supper. Plain and simple. We follow the truth as the scripture says so.

 

[Liza]

Well, I have to say that I agree with Reba since we both know what the fact is. The fact is that there's no woman sittin' besided Jesus at the Last Supper. Plain and simple. We follow the truth as the scripture says so.

I can see how our focuses might be on different things, altho I do respect your truth

 

[kuifje75]

I will try one more time

You're completely missing the point here. I am not using paintings as a proof to establish an idea. I am just bringing up some of the ideas that some other people may have, such as gnostic christanity or whatever, and asking you why some artists would interpret your scriptures differently. There is no need to simply discharge these aside and just simply state that is what your scriptures say.

There are hundreds, perhaps thousands of religions here, and the world does not believe in what you may believe in. You need to respect other people's differences whilst maintaining your own beliefs. There is no need to use belittling language such as "I don't know, but you must be seeing things" and "It is laughable to think..." and "illogical statements." I could very much say the exact same thing as to say that it is very laughable to me that you believe in what you do? That would definitely offend you, right?

Again, you failed to answer my suggestion about the separation of sexes and why churches allow the sexes to mingle together nowadays.

 

[Reba]

...why some artists would interpret your scriptures differently.

The painting examples that you posted don't interpret the scriptures differently. That is the point. Their paintings show Jesus with the 12 male disciples. So? That just proves that those artists showed Jesus and His 12 followers (men) at the Last Supper. There is nothing contradictory there.

... You need to respect other people's differences whilst maintaining your own beliefs. There is no need to use belittling language such as "I don't know, but you must be seeing things" and "It is laughable to think..." and "illogical statements." I could very much say the exact same thing as to say that it is very laughable to me that you believe in what you do? That would definitely offend you, right?

I wasn't referring to "beliefs". I was referring to actual images in paintings. You saw women there and I didn't. The pictures you linked didn't show any women, so I don't know what you are talking about. It makes no sense.

Again, you failed to answer my suggestion about the separation of sexes and why churches allow the sexes to mingle together nowadays.

I'm sorry, I didn't realize it was a question. I thought you were making a statement.

Some churches do and some don't. Some synagogues do and some don't. Some of that is culture based. I can't answer for them. You need to ask someone who still practices seperate seating. My church doesn't separate the seating for men and women. Is that what you mean by mingling together?

 

[Vance]

The DaVinci Code is a fiction.

So the bible is. The Bible was written by imperfect creatures a.k.a. humans. If the Bible were written by God, there would be no arguments about flaws in the Bible but it was written by humans so therefore there are flaws in the Bible.


Anyone, "To err is human". Study, acknowledge and adopt that powerful logic. If you do, it will save your soul. If anyone deemed Da Vinci Code as 'fiction' or 'full of holes' then you also deemed the Bible as 'fiction' or 'full of holes' too. Both books were written by humans.

Yes, I acknowledge the fact that it is highly possible that there are flaws in Da Vinci Code but there are flaws in the Bible too. Like it or not, deal with it.

Reba, I sincerely hope that you are aware that even "live news video" are often edited and altered before shown on TV? There are approx 3 - 7 seconds delays between "live news video" and your area. Ask any professional cameraman. I know because I took two semsters in media during in HS. I also want to add that what you saw on TV does not mean that you got the full picture of what happened in reality.