It it really the deaf/Deaf community?

Easy, it stems from the medicalisation, informed from hegemony, that manifests itself as guilt, despair. This pressure to conform is a strong impetus of guilt and confusion. Not easy to ascertain if the parents 'are' giving their deaf child a chance ' to life', that is a life to push them to talk or a life to let them be (while worrying about sub-standard education that pervail in 'most' deaf schools, which are argued to have 'nothing to do with 'inferiority' of sign langauge). So hence i understand what Jillio meant by parents pressuring themselves (intentionally or not) to be 'good parents' or 'bad parents'
- this equally applies to parents who are devoted to straight oralism.



I wouldnt be so sure if i would call this empathy, it is a poorly understood word, especially if used in this topic.

Agreed. Empathy is an often misunderstood word, and actually has nothing to do with agreement or with sympathizing with another's situation. In fact, the statement, "I don't agree with your decision for myself personally, but support your right to make it" is a very empathic statement. I have seen that statement made any number of times by deaf members of this board to hearing parents.
 
Easy, it stems from the medicalisation, informed from hegemony, that manifests itself as guilt, despair. This pressure to conform is a strong impetus of guilt and confusion. Not easy to ascertain if the parents 'are' giving their deaf child a chance ' to life', that is a life to push them to talk or a life to let them be (while worrying about sub-standard education that pervail in 'most' deaf schools, which are argued to have 'nothing to do with 'inferiority' of sign langauge). So hence i understand what Jillio meant by parents pressuring themselves (intentionally or not) to be 'good parents' or 'bad parents'
- this equally applies to parents who are devoted to straight oralism.



I wouldnt be so sure if i would call this empathy, it is a poorly understood word, especially if used in this topic.

Good post! It's as easy at this, unfortunately, the easiest stuff seems to be the hardest to admit or acknowledge. The skill to deny the obvious if feared, is a necessary primal force inside us, sadly for many deaf children.
 
As controversial as this may sound, this is how I feel about people who insist upon CIs as the "final solution" to deafness without considering the feelings of their children. Children deserve a choice.

I find this part interesting. It's amazing how one simple action can be analyzed to either "That's child abuse" or "You did the best thing for your child."

I'd like to use a subtle example: My grandmother spoke Spanish and only knew a few English words. I only knew a few Spanish words. I spent a lot of time with her during summers while my mom was at work. One day, we took the bus to go to Burger King. I was maybe 7 or 8. My grandmother said "Quiero un Whopper con fritas y Coca Cola." and handed me a 20. I was like "no no abuela! Por que?!" Because I didn't want to order by myself (I didn't even speak that well back then!). My grandmother just gave me a look and said "Ahora." ("Now"), sat down on a table, and watched me as I ordered for us. I was so nervous but I ordered anyway. This happened EACH time I went to BK with her (which was a lot, probably why I have extra baggage on my ass :) ). And I protested less and less. Eventually I gained confidence to order for myself at a young age (compared to my hearing cousin, same age, who has asked me to order for him too). I'm sure most people would not consider this "child abuse" but it could be within the same ballpark as forcing a child to do something s/he doesn't want to (ex. oral) which can viewed as child abuse. I think people have a problem defining a line between challenging a child and forcing a child.

And the funny part? Did my grandmother force me to speak to gain confidence? Or perhaps did my grandmother not want to order because she spoke only Spanish? The answer to all that is no. Her reason is simply that she did not want to stand in line, she wanted to sit down. :)
 
Agreed. Empathy is an often misunderstood word, and actually has nothing to do with agreement or with sympathizing with another's situation. In fact, the statement, "I don't agree with your decision for myself personally, but support your right to make it" is a very empathic statement. I have seen that statement made any number of times by deaf members of this board to hearing parents.

i like your example of the agreeing then supporting the decision aspect. I never had thought of it this way, well I may have indeed seen there numerous times before especially in this forum, and elsewhere. It didn't occured to me until you mentioned it now that it was a form of empathy, - Political form of empathy i might add.

This intrigues me now since i cant help but wonder if that is a symptom of the trickle-down effect of political passiveness from coercing forces of 'politically correct' handling of situations?
In othe words, surely many deaf people may disagree with cochlear implants but may 'support' other's wishes but while doing so, it may also means unwittingly permet CI to permeate regardless of their personal dissapproval? That said, the dissapproval doesn't have to be a strong dissapproval, even just a 'not in agreeable terms' is weak enough allow it to occur to 'others' while it may be concerned to be not suitable for 'others' as well. (but in real life Most - i mean MOST deaf people in Deaf community knows this, that 'the everyone is different'), however.

I dont know how to put this to words as I'm not a political scientist or public relations officals, nevertheless i DO wonder to an extent, how this might 'explain' why the cochlear implants continues to 'invade' deaf populationn, -esp those in have residual hearing below - that critical-speech discrimination theshold (or whatever they call it).

in similar vain, the simple word 'need' seems to possess potency of comparable calibre in which defines, persuade, and even coerce social directions.
 
But, unbeknownst to Granny, she taught you something valuable.....
 
i like your example of the agreeing then supporting the decision aspect. I never had thought of it this way, well I may have indeed seen there numerous times before especially in this forum, and elsewhere. It didn't occured to me until you mentioned it now that it was a form of empathy, - Political form of empathy i might add.

This intrigues me now since i cant help but wonder if that is a symptom of the trickle-down effect of political passiveness from coercing forces of 'politically correct' handling of situations?
In othe words, surely many deaf people may disagree with cochlear implants but may 'support' other's wishes but while doing so, it may also means unwittingly permet CI to permeate regardless of their personal dissapproval? That said, the dissapproval doesn't have to be a strong dissapproval, even just a 'not in agreeable terms' is weak enough allow it to occur to 'others' while it may be concerned to be not suitable for 'others' as well. (but in real life Most - i mean MOST deaf people in Deaf community knows this, that 'the everyone is different'), however.

I dont know how to put this to words as I'm not a political scientist or public relations officals, nevertheless i DO wonder to an extent, how this might 'explain' why the cochlear implants continues to 'invade' deaf populationn, -esp those in have residual hearing below - that critical-speech discrimination theshold (or whatever they call it).

in similar vain, the simple word 'need' seems to possess potency of comparable calibre in which defines, persuade, and even coerce social directions.

:ty: Grummer.
 
My feelings and our story

My daughter was born very very sick. The doctors had made some mistakes and it looked like she was going to die. She needed a special heart-lung bypass machine called ECMO to even have a chance at life. She was deprived of oxygen for 6 hours while they transported her to the only hospital in 3 states with that machine. Her outlook was very poor. After what can only be described as a miracle from God, she lived. She was removed from the machine at 8 days old. We were then told that she was very possibly brain dead and that we should discuss removing life support. But after a few tests they determined she wasn't. We were then told that Miss Kat would be severly brain damaged, that she would never talk or walk. They were wrong about that too.
At six weeks old we were finall able to take Miss Kat home from the hospital. She was on oxygen and monitors and very weak, but overall she was fine. She was a colicky baby, with a few lingering medical issues, but she was doing great. She loved the songs Daddy sang (he had deployed to the middle east during my pregnacy and made a tape of him singing children's songs for me to play for my belly and we also played them in the hospital when we couldn't be with her) and Baby Einstein movies. She learned to babble and said "Mommy" "Daddy" and "dog" all before her first birthday.
When Miss Kat was 15 months old I noticed that she still only had a few words. I spoke to the doctor at her well baby check up. She said it was perfectly normal. I wasn't sure she was right. About that same time, we had a family member recommend "Signing Time" and baby signing to us. We started watching the videos and taught Miss Kat her first sign (cookie). She would sign with great enthusiasm and voice "OOKIE!"
At 18 months I took Miss Kat to the doctor for another check up. I explained that she still wasn't gaining more words. The doctor said there was nothing to worry about. I didn't believe him. I went home and called Early Intervention myself. I told them that I thought my child needed speech therapy (there are several people in my family with speech issues including my father and sister), and they asked me if we'd had her hearing tested. I said yes, that she had passed her newborn screen and a follow up ABR at six months. They told me to go to the Health Department and have it tested again.
So at 19 months old we discovered Miss Kat's hearing loss. She was moderatly-severe hard of hearing. She loss sloped from 20 db down to 60. She was fitted with Oticon Gaia hearing aids at 22 months old. She loved them. With her aids her hearing thresholds were 0-10 db. We began receiving Early Intervention services including a PIP (parent infant program from the Deaf school) advisor, speech therapy, and a Deaf mentor. We continued to sign, because now that she was deaf why would we stop. We thought deaf people signed....right?
We immediatly began an ASL class offered by our Deaf community center. We finished both the begining and intermediate classes before Miss Kat turned 2. We also found a Deaf church to attend. We spoke to many Deaf adults and asked them what their parents had done and how it affected them. We learned that the vast majority had been educated oral only and struggled and then when they became adults they learned ASL and discovered how easy communication could be. Then they became angry with their parents and pushed away from them. We didn't want this to happen, so we continued with ASL and the Deaf community.
Eventually it became time to choose a preschool for Miss Kat. We originally wanted TC, because it offered both sign and speech, the best of both worlds. But when we visited the program it was an utter failure. The children were 4 and didn't know simple nouns like "shoe". (But the oral class was even worse, the students didn't know their names!) So, we went and visited the bi-bi school. We walked in and knew it was the right place for Miss Kat. It was a normal preschool for normal kids who just happen to use a language that isn't the same as mine. This wasn't "special ed", they were communicating with each other and the teacher with ease. It was perfect.
Over the next two years, Miss Kat received 20 minutes of speech once a week. I didn't like that at all, but I put up with it because the education was so much better. Miss Kat also began to very quickly lose her hearing. At the end of her age 4 preschool year, she had dropped to about 80-90 db, and the Deaf school had merged the TC program with our bi-bi school. They were now able to offer some of the benifits of the TC program to my daughter. She could have speech 3 times a week and have a "Oracy" specialist come to the classroom everyday. I was thrilled.
During the summer Miss Kat lost even more hearing. She finally hit 100 db, and that was some kind of line in my head. She was actually deaf now, she wasn't hard of hearing. It made me step back and do some thinking. I realized that her aids weren't doing the things that they used to do. Her speech was slipping, she couln't hear birds anymore, or even some of her toys. These were things she missed. She would ask me why a squeezy toy didn'y squeak anymore, and I didn't know how to explain it to her. She valued her hearing and now it was leaving. I wanted to see if there was a way to get back what she used to have.
I went to the audiologist and asked about a CI. I started doing research. I read and read and read for 3 months. Honestly, I used to judge CI parents. I had been told over and over that they just wanted to "cure" their kids, that they didn't accept the Deaf community, that they were too lazy to learn ASL and that they were making their children suffer. But I knew our family wasn't this way, so it was ok for us to look at a CI. But then I started to talk to more CI families (I had previously only associated with ones who signed too) and they had not tried to change their children. they loved them and just wanted to give them options and the only way they could was through the implant. Not all the parents were like this, but most. They were just trying to do the best they could.
As I continued to research I started reconsidering all my assumptions. Many Deaf people had told me what a horror speech had been for them, but it wasn't that way for my daughter. She loved speech and would be so excited to go, and had fun every single time. Many Deaf people told me that they hated their aids and that they gave them headaches and that would hide them and throw them away as children. But that wasn't true for Miss Kat either. She loves her aids and asks for them in the mornings. I started to consider that perhaps their experiences weren't going to be the same as my child's, that somethings had changed. I started seeking more support from other parents of Deaf children, people whose experiences were the same as mine and my child's. I NEVER left the Deaf community, or sought to seperate my child from other Deaf kids, I just started asking for other opinions too.

We finally decided that a CI was best for our daughter. We did consider waiting until she was older and could give more of an opinion about the matter, but we realized by waiting we were making a decision, we were choosing to make the implant less effective. She had given us age appropriate signs that she wanted to hear, and that she valued speech and listening. We are sad that it has come to this, we would have much rather had her not lose more hearing! But that being said, we are happy that she is able to receive technology that will make it so much easier to hear speech than she ever could with her aids.
Will she ever learn to have intelligible speech? Most likely. Will she ever be able to understand without ASL? Don't know. Will she choose to use speech instead of ASL? I really doubt it. Honestly, our biggest fear right now is that she becomes hugely successful with the CI and wants to drop sign. I don't know what we would do...
So there it is. That is our story. Thanks for reading!
 
Not to point out the obvious, but....... didn't you just reject hearing parents and their choices just now?

I agree. Words like "final solution" echo things like genocide to me. That is a term that was used in WW2 about killing Jews. Is that what was intended?
 
My daughter was born very very sick. The doctors had made some mistakes and it looked like she was going to die. She needed a special heart-lung bypass machine called ECMO to even have a chance at life. She was deprived of oxygen for 6 hours while they transported her to the only hospital in 3 states with that machine. Her outlook was very poor. After what can only be described as a miracle from God, she lived. She was removed from the machine at 8 days old. We were then told that she was very possibly brain dead and that we should discuss removing life support. But after a few tests they determined she wasn't. We were then told that Miss Kat would be severly brain damaged, that she would never talk or walk. They were wrong about that too.
At six weeks old we were finall able to take Miss Kat home from the hospital. She was on oxygen and monitors and very weak, but overall she was fine. She was a colicky baby, with a few lingering medical issues, but she was doing great. She loved the songs Daddy sang (he had deployed to the middle east during my pregnacy and made a tape of him singing children's songs for me to play for my belly and we also played them in the hospital when we couldn't be with her) and Baby Einstein movies. She learned to babble and said "Mommy" "Daddy" and "dog" all before her first birthday.
When Miss Kat was 15 months old I noticed that she still only had a few words. I spoke to the doctor at her well baby check up. She said it was perfectly normal. I wasn't sure she was right. About that same time, we had a family member recommend "Signing Time" and baby signing to us. We started watching the videos and taught Miss Kat her first sign (cookie). She would sign with great enthusiasm and voice "OOKIE!"
At 18 months I took Miss Kat to the doctor for another check up. I explained that she still wasn't gaining more words. The doctor said there was nothing to worry about. I didn't believe him. I went home and called Early Intervention myself. I told them that I thought my child needed speech therapy (there are several people in my family with speech issues including my father and sister), and they asked me if we'd had her hearing tested. I said yes, that she had passed her newborn screen and a follow up ABR at six months. They told me to go to the Health Department and have it tested again.
So at 19 months old we discovered Miss Kat's hearing loss. She was moderatly-severe hard of hearing. She loss sloped from 20 db down to 60. She was fitted with Oticon Gaia hearing aids at 22 months old. She loved them. With her aids her hearing thresholds were 0-10 db. We began receiving Early Intervention services including a PIP (parent infant program from the Deaf school) advisor, speech therapy, and a Deaf mentor. We continued to sign, because now that she was deaf why would we stop. We thought deaf people signed....right?
We immediatly began an ASL class offered by our Deaf community center. We finished both the begining and intermediate classes before Miss Kat turned 2. We also found a Deaf church to attend. We spoke to many Deaf adults and asked them what their parents had done and how it affected them. We learned that the vast majority had been educated oral only and struggled and then when they became adults they learned ASL and discovered how easy communication could be. Then they became angry with their parents and pushed away from them. We didn't want this to happen, so we continued with ASL and the Deaf community.
Eventually it became time to choose a preschool for Miss Kat. We originally wanted TC, because it offered both sign and speech, the best of both worlds. But when we visited the program it was an utter failure. The children were 4 and didn't know simple nouns like "shoe". (But the oral class was even worse, the students didn't know their names!) So, we went and visited the bi-bi school. We walked in and knew it was the right place for Miss Kat. It was a normal preschool for normal kids who just happen to use a language that isn't the same as mine. This wasn't "special ed", they were communicating with each other and the teacher with ease. It was perfect.
Over the next two years, Miss Kat received 20 minutes of speech once a week. I didn't like that at all, but I put up with it because the education was so much better. Miss Kat also began to very quickly lose her hearing. At the end of her age 4 preschool year, she had dropped to about 80-90 db, and the Deaf school had merged the TC program with our bi-bi school. They were now able to offer some of the benifits of the TC program to my daughter. She could have speech 3 times a week and have a "Oracy" specialist come to the classroom everyday. I was thrilled.
During the summer Miss Kat lost even more hearing. She finally hit 100 db, and that was some kind of line in my head. She was actually deaf now, she wasn't hard of hearing. It made me step back and do some thinking. I realized that her aids weren't doing the things that they used to do. Her speech was slipping, she couln't hear birds anymore, or even some of her toys. These were things she missed. She would ask me why a squeezy toy didn'y squeak anymore, and I didn't know how to explain it to her. She valued her hearing and now it was leaving. I wanted to see if there was a way to get back what she used to have.
I went to the audiologist and asked about a CI. I started doing research. I read and read and read for 3 months. Honestly, I used to judge CI parents. I had been told over and over that they just wanted to "cure" their kids, that they didn't accept the Deaf community, that they were too lazy to learn ASL and that they were making their children suffer. But I knew our family wasn't this way, so it was ok for us to look at a CI. But then I started to talk to more CI families (I had previously only associated with ones who signed too) and they had not tried to change their children. they loved them and just wanted to give them options and the only way they could was through the implant. Not all the parents were like this, but most. They were just trying to do the best they could.
As I continued to research I started reconsidering all my assumptions. Many Deaf people had told me what a horror speech had been for them, but it wasn't that way for my daughter. She loved speech and would be so excited to go, and had fun every single time. Many Deaf people told me that they hated their aids and that they gave them headaches and that would hide them and throw them away as children. But that wasn't true for Miss Kat either. She loves her aids and asks for them in the mornings. I started to consider that perhaps their experiences weren't going to be the same as my child's, that somethings had changed. I started seeking more support from other parents of Deaf children, people whose experiences were the same as mine and my child's. I NEVER left the Deaf community, or sought to seperate my child from other Deaf kids, I just started asking for other opinions too.

We finally decided that a CI was best for our daughter. We did consider waiting until she was older and could give more of an opinion about the matter, but we realized by waiting we were making a decision, we were choosing to make the implant less effective. She had given us age appropriate signs that she wanted to hear, and that she valued speech and listening. We are sad that it has come to this, we would have much rather had her not lose more hearing! But that being said, we are happy that she is able to receive technology that will make it so much easier to hear speech than she ever could with her aids.
Will she ever learn to have intelligible speech? Most likely. Will she ever be able to understand without ASL? Don't know. Will she choose to use speech instead of ASL? I really doubt it. Honestly, our biggest fear right now is that she becomes hugely successful with the CI and wants to drop sign. I don't know what we would do...
So there it is. That is our story. Thanks for reading!

Thank you for sharing Miss Kat's story, and your story, with us, faire jour. This is the way we find a common ground.
 
I agree. Words like "final solution" echo things like genocide to me. That is a term that was used in WW2 about killing Jews. Is that what was intended?

I do not believe that was what Brad08 intended, but it is a good example of how we all tend to project our own perceptions and perspectives on statements made by others. We don't necessarily see the meaning intended by another, but the meaning we interpret after filtering it through our own perspective and experience.

And that is not intended to single you out as we all do it. It is an unconscious process. The thing is, if we can become conscious of it, we actually are able to improve communication and understand each other much more effectively.
 
I do not believe that was what Brad08 intended, but it is a good example of how we all tend to project our own perceptions and perspectives on statements made by others. We don't necessarily see the meaning intended by another, but the meaning we interpret after filtering it through our own perspective and experience.

And that is not intended to single you out as we all do it. It is an unconscious process. The thing is, if we can become conscious of it, we actually are able to improve communication and understand each other much more effectively.

True. That is why I asked for clarification. It really rang that way for me, especially since it was in quotes.
 
True. That is why I asked for clarification. It really rang that way for me, especially since it was in quotes.

And I commend you for asking for clarification. That is the way we avoid the accusations and arguing.:)
 
I do not believe that was what Brad08 intended, but it is a good example of how we all tend to project our own perceptions and perspectives on statements made by others. We don't necessarily see the meaning intended by another, but the meaning we interpret after filtering it through our own perspective and experience.

And that is not intended to single you out as we all do it. It is an unconscious process. The thing is, if we can become conscious of it, we actually are able to improve communication and understand each other much more effectively.

Not at all. I don't see CIs as a solution to deafness and just picked the wrong words.
 
The deaf family decided not to get one for their daughter, but their daughter's friend's, deaf also, parents, hearing parents, decided to get one for their daughter.

Now after they're 18 years old, what do you think will happen?

I'd say the girl with CI would influence the girl to get one because they both grew up together, for sure, they are sharing each other's perspectives and experiences.

I saw this in a video, met the families, and talked to the community about it. So many Pros and Cons.

Here's my opinion on CIs. In the old times, they weren't effective at all, but today, they're super effective from what I hear, but it's the mind of their own that declares themselves as deaf.

I mean, I've met some who's deaf, but they said they're not deaf. They just can't hear, but they can understand everything just fine. But, according to the laws, they are deaf. Perhaps, it's the idea that they are rejecting. To me, they don't want to be catorgized into a group of deaf.


CIs can affect people's behavior and their prespective. But at the young age, CIs doesn't affect anything because it is at a good timing that one would wear it for the rest of their life, not half of their life.

Anyways, what was this thread about? I didn't want to read up to 14 pages. Hahahaha.
 
The deaf family decided not to get one for their daughter, but their daughter's friend's, deaf also, parents, hearing parents, decided to get one for their daughter.

Now after they're 18 years old, what do you think will happen?

I'd say the girl with CI would influence the girl to get one because they both grew up together, for sure, they are sharing each other's perspectives and experiences.

I saw this in a video, met the families, and talked to the community about it. So many Pros and Cons.

Here's my opinion on CIs. In the old times, they weren't effective at all, but today, they're super effective from what I hear, but it's the mind of their own that declares themselves as deaf.

I mean, I've met some who's deaf, but they said they're not deaf. They just can't hear, but they can understand everything just fine. But, according to the laws, they are deaf. Perhaps, it's the idea that they are rejecting. To me, they don't want to be catorgized into a group of deaf.


CIs can affect people's behavior and their prespective. But at the young age, CIs doesn't affect anything because it is at a good timing that one would wear it for the rest of their life, not half of their life.

Anyways, what was this thread about? I didn't want to read up to 14 pages. Hahahaha.

It isn't about CI.
 
I didn't see it that way, really. He did not say they weren't welcome here, or that they weren't welcome in the deaf commuity based on their choices, but rather that the attitudes behind the behaviors needed to be examined as more of a cause of the tension.

And we all also need to keep in mind that disagreement with a choice is not a personal rejection.

Maybe we should define rejection, because it seems to me that any type of disagreement is not considered a rejection as long they did not say the words "You are not welcome here"

This is a rejection to me:
More like rejecting selfish parents that will not allow their children to have a say in what they want.

Don't get me wrong. I'm all for free speech ("I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it." -Voltaire) but I am having a hard time believing that a person can tell a parent "I think you are being incredibly selfish for not allowing your child to have a choice. You are doing the same thing my parents did. I hated them for it. I consider them bad parents. Oh! by the way, welcome to AD!!!" and it's not a rejection because he said welcome?

In order for it to be a rejection, someone would actually have to say "Get the hell off AD, you are not welcome here nor the deaf community!"? I think people are smarter than that to actually say it.
 
Maybe we should define rejection, because it seems to me that any type of disagreement is not considered a rejection as long they did not say the words "You are not welcome here"

This is a rejection to me:


Don't get me wrong. I'm all for free speech ("I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it." -Voltaire) but I am having a hard time believing that a person can tell a parent "I think you are being incredibly selfish for not allowing your child to have a choice. You are doing the same thing my parents did. I hated them for it. I consider them bad parents. Oh! by the way, welcome to AD!!!" and it's not a rejection because he said welcome?

In order for it to be a rejection, someone would actually have to say "Get the hell off AD, you are not welcome here nor the deaf community!"? I think people are smarter than that to actually say it.

:gpost:

I think whenever someone uses words like "selfish" or "pushing them to someone they aren't" or "making them hearing" they are judging. Judgement equals rejection to me. If you are saying they are wrong, you are dismissing their perspective and rejecting them.
 
I agree with what Daredevil & Faire Jour stated.... when you use the word "selfish".. you are being judgemental and thus, the breakdown of communication begins. I take offense to what is said,e specially since we are trying to explain our different reasons. BradB I don't think I am selfish at all for giving my son a CI nor am I dellusional for as you put it" thinking he'd fit in better" Those phrases are offensive to me and to probably a lot of other hearing parents who are doing what they as parents, think is best for their child.
 
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