It it really the deaf/Deaf community?

There is no need to go far away. This thread is a good example of what is going on if you read it from the beginning. Hearing parents of deaf children said they are leaving this thread one by one . So there clearly was a difficulty of creating a common ground. You can say many things about what they are doing wrong or why they are leaving, but this wouldnt be doing the self criticism always asked for, nor it would be taking responsibility.

Jillio said things like "not being defensive" , "not accusing anybody" , "not talking on behalf of others" , "taking self responsibility". Lets apply them to everybody. What is your responsibility in hearing parents leaving this thread? Then we can re-invite them here and ask them to make a self criticism too.

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shel90 said:
But when the same thing happens in the Deaf community, a whole community gets shunned or turned away. Now, why is that?

I have my theory..I think deep inside the parents really don't want their deaf children around sign language users for fear of their children becoming "like them" so they use the few members who reject or name call them as a justification to keep their children away from the Deaf community. I think they r using that to mask the real reason.

Otherwise, it is hypocratical to keep their deaf children around hearing kids even if there r hearing individuals who mock or look down at their deaf children.

It does make me wonder.
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I do think some hearing parents take a look at the deaf community and think that they are "strange", NOT because they are deaf or know ASL but because they seem to socialize differently. I don't know if my mom personally thinks this, but I know I did when I was younger. From my experience, deaf people who are fluent in ASL have a tendency to physically over-exaggerate in order to convey their feelings. So at first sight, Deaf people are different from hearing people NOT only in language (which I think hearing people are more likely to accept) but also the way they present themselves.

To me, it's easier to defend my choices for the child based on a few statements that I firmly believe is wrong rather than my weak AND insulting argument "Honestly, I think Deaf people are a bit strange and I don't want my child to be one of them." I would like to stress that there is a difference between doing something different from "normal" because it is necessary and best for the child (i.e. learning ASL) and doing something different just because it happens to be a byproduct of a way of life (i.e. the way Deaf people present themselves)

P.S. I understand the differences in culture and the reasons why Deaf people do what they do. I am just exploring from a hearing person's perspective, since there is a severe lack of them here in AD.
 
Hermes said:
There is no need to go far away. This thread is a good example of what is going on if you read it from the beginning. Hearing parents of deaf children said they are leaving this thread one by one . So there clearly was a difficulty of creating a common ground. You can say many things about what they are doing wrong or why they are leaving, but this wouldnt be doing the self criticism always asked for, nor it would be taking responsibility.

Jillio said things like "not being defensive" , "not accusing anybody" , "not talking on behalf of others" , "taking self responsibility". Lets apply them to everybody. What is your responsibility in hearing parents leaving this thread? Then we can re-invite them here and ask them to make a self criticism too.

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There have actually only been 4 hearing parents that have posted here....I am one of them, and another one is a CODA. So, it really isn't that they are leaving, it's that they haven't participated to begin with.:shrug:

It appears to me that, if we are going to ever begin to make progress, hearing parents have to be willing to participate in the discussion and stick it out long enough to reach a resolution. Unfortunately, I just don't see that happening.
 
Daredevel7 said:
I do think some hearing parents take a look at the deaf community and think that they are "strange", NOT because they are deaf or know ASL but because they seem to socialize differently. I don't know if my mom personally thinks this, but I know I did when I was younger. From my experience, deaf people who are fluent in ASL have a tendency to physically over-exaggerate in order to convey their feelings. So at first sight, Deaf people are different from hearing people NOT only in language (which I think hearing people are more likely to accept) but also the way they present themselves.

To me, it's easier to defend my choices for the child based on a few statements that I firmly believe is wrong rather than my weak AND insulting argument "Honestly, I think Deaf people are a bit strange and I don't want my child to be one of them." I would like to stress that there is a difference between doing something different from "normal" because it is necessary and best for the child (i.e. learning ASL) and doing something different just because it happens to be a byproduct of a way of life (i.e. the way Deaf people present themselves)
P.S. I understand the differences in culture and the reasons why Deaf people do what they do. I am just exploring from a hearing person's perspective, since there is a severe lack of them here in AD.
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I appreciate you trying to take the hearing perspective to balance things out a bit more. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by the bolded. Could you elaborate a bit more, please?
 
I am surprised by the thought that there is a severe lack of hearing people of a website named "AllDeaf."
 
jillio said:
There have actually only been 4 hearing parents that have posted here....I am one of them, and another one is a CODA. So, it really isn't that they are leaving, it's that they haven't participated to begin with.:shrug:

It appears to me that, if we are going to ever begin to make progress, hearing parents have to be willing to participate in the discussion and stick it out long enough to reach a resolution. Unfortunately, I just don't see that happening.
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You are the original poster of this thread , so there was 3 of them. Saying "they should do this, I dont see that happening" is not taking the self responsibility you were asking for. Of course once you say "hearing parents have to do this" nobody else will take responsibility either. It needs to start from somewhere. Since you started this thread, you said all those things about taking responsibility, being honest, not being defensive , do you think you have got a responsibility in those parents leaving or not coming to this thread to begin with?

Everybody else can answer this question for themselves . Then we will go to hearing parents and ask them to take responsibility too. This is what you wanted to do right?

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Hermes said:
You are the original poster of this thread , so there was 3 of them. Saying "they should do this, I dont see that happening" is not taking the self responsibility you were asking for. Of course once you say "hearing parents have to do this" nobody else will take responsibility either. It needs to start from somewhere. Since you started this thread, you said all those things about taking responsibility, being honest, not being defensive , do you think you have got a responsibility in those parents leaving or not coming to this thread to begin with?

Everybody else can answer this question for themselves . Then we will go to hearing parents and ask them to take responsibility too. This is what you wanted to do right?

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You really are just a trouble maker. You have no connection or reason to be here. You should find an interest in life.
 
Bottesini said:
You really are just a trouble maker. You have no connection or reason to be here. You should find an interest in life.
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Why do you think what I asked is making trouble? Once again there is this "shut up and leave" attitude. If I didnt know any better I would think this is all deaf communities attitude, instead of your individual. Look what Jillio said before on this kind of behavior:

jillio said:
This bitterness and defensiveness that we keep witnessing does not come from outside oneself, but from inside oneself.
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The reason I asked the question is in Jillio's following quote. Since what Jillio said is true, asking this question without taking sides is a very reasonable thing to do. I was curious if there was going to be a common ground established at the end too.

jillio said:
Before you can open the mind of another, you have to first open your own. You can't change the thinking of others simply by demanding that they see it your way.
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Hermes, I see you are a very smart and articulate person.

From what I observe, jillio is trying to ask all of us to internalise our own feelings and philosophies. In order to ask for change, we need to change ourselves, aye?

I agree that there needs to be a common ground for everyone and that is mutual respect.

In order to have freedom of speech, one has to give freedom of speech. No one here has yet asked anyone here to do the "shut up and/or leave" in this thread. I would hope no one does this as I have learned a lot from others in such a short period of time.

It is mutual respect we all want as a common ground and we all worry about our future generation's education. After all, they are going to be our future educators/presidents/you name it.
 
Hermes said:
Why do you think what I asked is making trouble? Once again there is this "shut up and leave" attitude. If I didnt know any better I would think this is all deaf communities attitude, instead of your individual. Look what Jillio said before on this kind of behavior:



The reason I asked the question is in Jillio's following quote. Since what Jillio said is true, asking this question without taking sides is a very reasonable thing to do. I was curious if there was going to be a common ground established at the end too.


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You probably meet this attitude more than just here. I don't know what Jillio said about people who are not deaf and don't have deaf children either.

Did she say something about people who are just here for the heck of it?

Oh , just as an aside, remember about IP addresses. I am sure that will have meaning for one or two.
 
jillio said:
There have actually only been 4 hearing parents that have posted here....I am one of them, and another one is a CODA. So, it really isn't that they are leaving, it's that they haven't participated to begin with.:shrug:

It appears to me that, if we are going to ever begin to make progress, hearing parents have to be willing to participate in the discussion and stick it out long enough to reach a resolution. Unfortunately, I just don't see that happening.
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I beg to differ, how do you expect hearing parents to be willing to stick around and participate when you're not being fair on both sides, when I say this it is because I'm seeing the exactly same thing as Hermes here about what you said things like "not being defensive" , "not accusing anybody" , "not talking on behalf of others" , "taking self responsibility" etc. (Sorry Hermes, I took your words out of your post) and you're not applying this to everyone. Why is that?

Then you say CI is not related to this thread but you still allow others to continue talking about it, I don't understand and I don't see the fairness in this, I'm sorry
 
Angel said:
I beg to differ, how do you expect hearing parents to be willing to stick around and participate when you're not being fair on both sides, when I say this it is because I'm seeing the exactly same thing as Hermes here about what you said things like "not being defensive" , "not accusing anybody" , "not talking on behalf of others" , "taking self responsibility" etc. (Sorry Hermes, I took your words out of your post) and you're not applying this to everyone. Why is that?

Then you say CI is not related to this thread but you still allow others to continue talking about it, I don't understand and I don't see the fairness in this, I'm sorry
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I'm sorry if I speak on your behalf, jillio, I apologise in advance.

When one tells another person not to get emotionally involved, over-analyze sentences, read between words or even get hyper-sensitive, one will have to remove themselves out of the situation.

It calls for a cool mind during those situations. Suppose a parent had their young children with them and a heated discussion about CI came in between the doctor and the parent, the parent cannot become emotionally charged in front of the children.

This is where thinking outside of the box comes in and internally thinking is important. Yes, it is easier said than done. Self-projecting feelings onto the children causes unnecessary fear.

I have total respect for parents, both deaf and hearing, that are involved with their children's life. CI, to me, is just a tool. Unfortunately some people feel the need to label the CI and implanted babies and children as robots which I feel is so wrong.

This I suspect causes deep rift between deaf and hearing people. It's the unknown that I mentioned earlier in a post. They don't know much about the CI and what wonders it can do for a child's life.
 
jillio said:
I appreciate you trying to take the hearing perspective to balance things out a bit more. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by the bolded. Could you elaborate a bit more, please?
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One of the arguments from the Deaf community against the hearing parents is that they are trying to "fix" their child to be as normal as possible, meaning they must listen and speak like a normal child. I don't quite think it's that simple. I was exploring the possibility that a hearing parent may not have a problem with ASL itself but rather the byproduct of surrounding yourself in ASL, which is how they convey their feelings (or perhaps some other social differences from hearing people). I think this is evident when you see how a fluent ASL interpreter talks differently from a deaf person who uses ASL primarily.

Perhaps hearing parents accept the difference in their child in terms of deafness and different needs from a hearing child, but does not want to accept an extra level of "different" that is brought out by a culture. I hope that makes sense?
 
Bottesini said:
You probably meet this attitude more than just here. I don't know what Jillio said about people who are not deaf and don't have deaf children either.

Did she say something about people who are just here for the heck of it?

Oh , just as an aside, remember about IP addresses. I am sure that will have meaning for one or two.
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Ok, no matter what you say, I still love you. :hug:

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Babyblue said:
Yes

To be honest I have seen some deaf people that not type English on alldeaf being denied. Because their English is not good enough against other deafs that post here. One doesn't. Want to take the time??

I am being honest. Now I have seen a lot of ASL as a first languagen type in ASL post here. But they don't get the Same response as an English typing person. A lot of posters avoid the ASL posters.


Am I the only one that sees this??
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I also noticed that. When I read ASL posts, I sometimes think, wow, that person got some good ASL grammars! I also often like to write in sign language "style" myself.

ASL powerful no limit. English word word by order. "of" "the" "that" waste time, wow limited. How english language mind clear? strange.. ;)

By the way, this should be a reminder to some of us that we should try to not reject people by their ASL skills at dicussions in ASL?
 
Mrs Bucket said:
Hermes, I see you are a very smart and articulate person.

From what I observe, jillio is trying to ask all of us to internalise our own feelings and philosophies. In order to ask for change, we need to change ourselves, aye?

I agree that there needs to be a common ground for everyone and that is mutual respect.

In order to have freedom of speech, one has to give freedom of speech. No one here has yet asked anyone here to do the "shut up and/or leave" in this thread. I would hope no one does this as I have learned a lot from others in such a short period of time.

It is mutual respect we all want as a common ground and we all worry about our future generation's education. After all, they are going to be our future educators/presidents/you name it.
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You are right Mrs Bucket, but 300 messages shows us that nobody wants to be first to go and take responsibility. Maybe people are worried if they criticize themselves , nobody else will and they will get the all blame. So this turns into a conversation everybody tells one other to be honest and take responsibility. It needs to start from somewhere. Otherwise everybody will say we did our best but nothing changed while nobody really takes the first step.

So I asked a question to everybody. I said , do you know why hearing parents left the thread or didnt come here at the first point? Do you think you might have a responsibility in it?

If somebody can say "maybe this is the part I did wrong" , then we can re-invite the parents and say here is a step and ask if they really think they have no responsibility in it either? Step by step it can develop into a mutual understanding.

I do not have a deaf kid, so why do I care? I have seen hundreds of "we tried but failed" thread. Seeing the development of a connection, a mutual understanding will make me happy. If it works in this thread, it can work in other threads too. If it works for deaf people, it would work for blind people , and black and white people too. If it works for this subject it can work for other subjects too. And one step after another this is how positiveness would spread the world.

Love
Hermes
 
Daredevel7 said:
One of the arguments from the Deaf community against the hearing parents is that they are trying to "fix" their child to be as normal as possible, meaning they must listen and speak like a normal child. I don't quite think it's that simple. I was exploring the possibility that a hearing parent may not have a problem with ASL itself but rather the byproduct of surrounding yourself in ASL, which is how they convey their feelings (or perhaps some other social differences from hearing people). I think this is evident when you see how a fluent ASL interpreter talks differently from a deaf person who uses ASL primarily.

Perhaps hearing parents accept the difference in their child in terms of deafness and different needs from a hearing child, but does not want to accept an extra level of "different" that is brought out by a culture. I hope that makes sense?
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That makes much sense. Wonder if you are spot on this one..

I would dare to say that listening skills almost don't matter in the deaf community, and this also makes some reject the deaf community. They misunderstand the lack of interest in listening skills, and think the community shows some extreme resistance toward listening skills, or some weird kind of "difference".
 
Not sure if I get your point, Flip, but folks with English or ASL skills fall into the "not listening" mode for which there is no excuse, no matter what language you speak.
 
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