Is there a such thing as "true bilingualism"?

I miss, Jillio, too.

I'm not trying to argue with FJ. I'm trying to figure out the issue.

FJ's child is getting auditory stimulation. Doesn't that make the risk less?

I'm wondering how important it is for me to use remaining hearing with HAs. Is this truly a use it or lose it situation. I don't know. I do know that I'm not crazy about using my HAs. lol

Here's another study that seems to support the functional atrophy idea. It's technical and I don't understand all of it. Can someone better at reading studies explain it to me?

Developmental hearing loss eliminates long-term potentiation in the auditory cortex ? PNAS

I don't think we are arguing either! I'm just trying to explain things as I understand them!

You already have language and do (or don't) have an auditory memory. I believe you have a progressive loss or are late-deafened, correct? That is a totally different situation than a child profoundly deaf since birth.
 
I don't think we are arguing either! I'm just trying to explain things as I understand them!

You already have language and do (or don't) have an auditory memory. I believe you have a progressive loss or are late-deafened, correct? That is a totally different situation than a child profoundly deaf since birth.

Vastly different
 
I understand now, FJ. That makes sense.

Apparently, I have a good auditory memory because I get phantom hearing. It's driving me crazy.
 
A lot of good things/ideas in the posts above. After all it is all about communication period. A highly intellegent person who can not communicate that knowledge will be thought an idiot. On the other hand someone on the low end of the scale with very good communicaton skills will be thought of as intellegent! I give you our congress as an example of the latter. The more ways we can communicate the better and that goes for language as well. Many times I wish I had been fluent in more than just english and not really fluent in that.
 
I'm struggling with learning ASL now. I wish that I'd had a mom like FJ who taught me when I was young.
 
I'm struggling with learning ASL now. I wish that I'd had a mom like FJ who taught me when I was young.

There is a small group of parents who want exactly what I want for Miss Kat (ASL-Spoken Language bilingualism) for our children, but is incredibly difficult to get proper resources or support from *either* side. They are so busy demonizing and fighting that our kids get caught in the middle.
 
That sucks. Educational bureaucracy sucks. Have you considered starting your own nonprofit school? A homeschooling cooperative? Moving? I wish that you could find what your child needs without all of the drama. It sounds draining!
 
There is a small group of parents who want exactly what I want for Miss Kat (ASL-Spoken Language bilingualism) for our children, but is incredibly difficult to get proper resources or support from *either* side. They are so busy demonizing and fighting that our kids get caught in the middle.

I think the real problem is... When teaching History, do you want the teacher use spoken language or do you want the teacher use sign lanuage? Can't do both so you gotta pick one. You say you want your daughter have full access to spoken language, but she'll be learning other subjects all day. This is why in bi-bi school is silent most of the day. Because they want teachers to teach in ASL and not spoken so deaf people can learn about history, math, social studies and will not miss out.

You seen how some college students are missing out math/science combo because they can't write notes and watch an interpreter/teacher/cart/etc. at the same time. With a teacher who teach in ASL, they can keep up.
 
I think the real problem is... When teaching History, do you want the teacher use spoken language or do you want the teacher use sign lanuage? Can't do both so you gotta pick one. You say you want your daughter have full access to spoken language, but she'll be learning other subjects all day. This is why in bi-bi school is silent most of the day. Because they want teachers to teach in ASL and not spoken so deaf people can learn about history, math, social studies and will not miss out.

You seen how some college students are missing out math/science combo because they can't write notes and watch an interpreter/teacher/cart/etc. at the same time. With a teacher who teach in ASL, they can keep up.

I think it depends on the child and the subject. My daughter needs ASL for some subjects and not for others. I know kids who follow in spoken language just fine. Oral programs do not just teach speech all day, they teach all the curiculum, it is just in spoken English.
 
I think it depends on the child and the subject. My daughter needs ASL for some subjects and not for others. I know kids who follow in spoken language just fine. Oral programs do not just teach speech all day, they teach all the curiculum, it is just in spoken English.

I know they don't teach speech all day, I've been through it (in public school). But they make kids practice all day which put them behind if they miss out. in Bi-bi school, they don't do that. They make sure the kids are getting their lesson loud and clear by using ASL.
 
I know they don't teach speech all day, I've been through it (in public school). But they make kids practice all day which put them behind if they miss out. in Bi-bi school, they don't do that. They make sure the kids are getting their lesson loud and clear by using ASL.

No, again, they just conducting the school in that language. That's like saying kids in a German school aren't learning math because they have to practice German all day. They don't, they learn German and then learn IN German. Oral kids learn spoken language (as very young kids) and then learn IN spoken language from then on.
 
FJ, do you mean that the teachers should teach orally while signing? Or do you mean that some subjects would be taught in spoken language and other subjects would be in ASL? It's not clear to me what you are envisioning.
 
No, again, they just conducting the school in that language. That's like saying kids in a German school aren't learning math because they have to practice German all day. They don't, they learn German and then learn IN German. Oral kids learn spoken language (as very young kids) and then learn IN spoken language from then on.


No, that's not the case. Not with deaf kids because they struggle to hear everything. They will provide accommodation and yet, they don't want to offer ASL for them to help them because they are afraid they will stop using spoken language .

you are making me feel that deaf kids are hearing kids from this post (kinda like making kids look like little adults instead of their actual age).
 
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While I may not be as fluent as a Deaf person or an adult CODA, I am widely considered "acceptable" by all people I meet. I don't struggle to follow any conversations in ASL, and while my own signing is less than beautiful, it is certainly good. (When I interviewed for a job at the school for the Deaf they asked me to rate my signing skills, on a scale of 1-5, and answer in ASL. I gave myself a 2, for various reasons, that I explained. The Deaf adult argued with me and told me that I was easily a 4.) So, we aren't the average hearing family that learns baby signs and then quits and then can't communicate as their child grows.

We have many reasons that we don't have her in the ASL-English class right now. The first is the silence. The program is totally voice off. A child can use their voice during one, 20 minute pull out speech session a week, otherwise spoken language is equally as forbidden as ASL is in the oral class.

Second, she is not around any fluent spoken language users. Kids learn language best by exsposure to native users, especially other kids. She wouldn't have the chance to be around other deaf, spoken language users.

Third, CI's and the auditory nerve and auditory pathways in the brain are "use it or lose it". If the nerve and hearing sections of the brain are not used, they atropy and become less affective (hence the push for early implantaion) and the window for fluent spoken language begins closing at age 8. (My daughter is 6 1/2) So it is now or never. (If you look at non-users and low preformances users of CI's, you will find very very few that were implanted before age 2, a tiny bit more, but still few, implanted before 4, but after age 5, the number increases rapidly. If implanted after age 8, it is rare to find a fully fluent spoken language user, barring progressive loss or things like that.)

And last, but not least, the school is NOT accepting of spoken language. It is seen as useless, the therapy they provide is inadequate and inappropriate and they don't care. My daughter went to that school, with a moderate loss, and we did all the things you suggested, for 3 years, and she made exactly ZERO progress with spoken language. She started with the spoken language of a 15 month old and she was activated with the same level. Now she has been in the oral program for 6 months and she has gained 2 years worth of language, in those 6 months! She now no longer just has words, but she is getting LANGUAGE from speech as well. For example, I was sitting on the couch and Miss Kat was about 4 feet away from me, playing on the floor (no signs, can't see my lips) and I asked her "What animal has wings AND can swim?" She thought pretty hard, and repeated back to herself "wings and swimming..." and then she got it, "Duck!". So she is not just picking up a few words, she is using and processing spoken language for higher level thinking.

Right now we are doing sort of the opposite of your suggestion. We are emphasising spoken language at school, and doing ASL at home. We have playdates with her Deaf friends, we go to Deaf community events and we attend a Deaf church.

Glad to hear that it's working out for you! like i said, it was based on my experience growing up bilingual, which is not at all the same as a manual/oral bilingual. Glad to hear that its working out so far! :D

*EQL*
 
I think the real problem is... When teaching History, do you want the teacher use spoken language or do you want the teacher use sign lanuage? Can't do both so you gotta pick one.

I think that is the question. But why can't the schooling system provide some subject in English (orally) and some subjects in ASL? Probably b/c they don't want to and/or don't have the funding and/or no other parents want this. It's too bad really. Maybe when Miss Kat catches up in her oral language she can participate in a half and half program.

It's too bad there aren't other parents who also want this in FJs area. Perhaps those parents could have banded together and made a homeschooling program that met their needs, and with more parents involved it would mean less time off work for each family.

Anyway, I hope MK continues to develop her oral language at such a phenominal rate and that she does continue to learn/improve her ASL! It's great to hear that MK's parents are fluent in ASL and are keeping her in touch with the other Deaf children / church.

Take care,
*EQL*
 
I think that is the question. But why can't the schooling system provide some subject in English (orally) and some subjects in ASL? Probably b/c they don't want to and/or don't have the funding and/or no other parents want this. It's too bad really. Maybe when Miss Kat catches up in her oral language she can participate in a half and half program.


Take care,
*EQL*

I've thought of a school for both Children of deaf adults (CODA) and deaf.. so there will be a mixture of classes of spoken and ASL. Even some CODA feel they belong in the deaf culture and yet they are hearing. I don't believe Deaf school should be limit to deaf people only.
 
No, that's not the case. Not with deaf kids because they struggle to hear everything. They will provide accommodation and yet, they don't want to offer ASL for them to help them because they are afraid they will stop using spoken language .

you are making me feel that deaf kids are hearing kids from this post (kinda like making kids look like little adults instead of their actual age).

I am not talking about deaf kids who "struggle to hear everything". I am talking about deaf children who utilize technology and are able to hear, understand, and discriminate all speech sounds.
 
I am not talking about deaf kids who "struggle to hear everything". I am talking about deaf children who utilize technology and are able to hear, understand, and discriminate all speech sounds.

you are talking about making sure they have oral speech and listening skills... Oral schools been doing this for years with deaf who wear hearing aids, They've always made sure they keep their oral skills no matter how much they struggle. these kids who can hear and speak very well should be going to mainstream public school unless there is a reason for them to keep going to oral school: struggle to hear and speak <--- this is where bi-bi feel ASL should be use instead.
 
you are talking about making sure they have oral speech and listening skills... Oral schools been doing this for years with deaf who wear hearing aids. these kids who can hear and speak very well should be going to mainstream public school unless there is a reason for them to keep going to oral school: struggle to hear and speak <--- this is where bi-bi feel ASL should be use instead.

I think that deaf kids should be allowed around other deaf kids, regardless of mode of communication.
 
I think it depends on the child and the subject. My daughter needs ASL for some subjects and not for others. I know kids who follow in spoken language just fine. Oral programs do not just teach speech all day, they teach all the curiculum, it is just in spoken English.
Actually fairejour, were you aware that it's very common for even a lot of kids who are decent oral sucesses (they can function well one on one) to use 'terps in group situtions?
I know I heard that it's very common even at AG BAD conferences to see 'terps!
And oral programs may not "just teach speech all day" BUT is the curriculum on a par with hearing programs?
The thing is.....we know that oral programs can teach spoken English abilty. But can they teach it so that dhh kids are on a par with hearing kids?
Even many just hoh kids still have spoken language issues. The improvement in language abilty is that the gap isn't as big. Kids with deaf losses now just have hoh level delays. (except for the ones who are superstars)
 
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