Is oral deaf education really a threat?

faire_jour said:
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just because you believe that asl solves all problems and has no downsides does not mean that others agree with you.

there is no way on earth that i am making these choices for me. I am doing everything in my power to make sure my child has every opportunity to reach her potential. I am not alone. Almost all parents are making the decisions that are best for their children.

i get it, you hate what your parents chose for you. It doesn't mean that everyone does. I know many oral deaf people who are happy they were raised orally.

this isn't about laziness, it is about disgreeing. Just because you believe one one is better, soesn't actually make it so.

(and yet shel will never see this because she has me on ignore. I suppose that is one way to make sure you are always right, to refuse to even listen to another opinion).
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Oh come on, say it. Just say it already. You believe ASL to be inferior for your child(ren).
 
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Beowulf said:
faire_jour said:
Wirelessly posted



just because you believe that asl solves all problems and has no downsides does not mean that others agree with you.

there is no way on earth that i am making these choices for me. I am doing everything in my power to make sure my child has every opportunity to reach her potential. I am not alone. Almost all parents are making the decisions that are best for their children.

i get it, you hate what your parents chose for you. It doesn't mean that everyone does. I know many oral deaf people who are happy they were raised orally.

this isn't about laziness, it is about disgreeing. Just because you believe one one is better, soesn't actually make it so.

(and yet shel will never see this because she has me on ignore. I suppose that is one way to make sure you are always right, to refuse to even listen to another opinion).
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Oh come on, say it. Just say it already. You believe ASL to be inferior for your child(ren).
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nope. My child (and family) still use asl everyday. Asl is by no means "inferior"...how could a language be inferior?

again, just because one person thinks something is right for a child, doesn't mean another has to. But just because you disagree doesn't make the other person lazy or abusive or an audist or even wrong!
 
channeling matajan:

How else is a person going to Ivy League and get a rich, Ivy League spouse?
 
and clarke goes all the way to 12th.
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Um no. If Clarke went up to 12, it might not have issues with declining enrollment, since it would have ALL the kids who are struggling emotionally and socially. in high school. (and there are a LOT of them from what I saw at the Mainstream conference)
Grades 1 - 8

Almost all parents are making the decisions that are best for their children.

i get it, you hate what your parents chose for you. It doesn't mean that everyone does. I know many oral deaf people who are happy they were raised orally.
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Or what they THINK is best for their kids. I do think many parents are basicly stumbling in the dark when it comes to education for their dhh kids. Just like my parents did. The parents of today listen to the oral experts and the audis who say " Oh your kid doesn't need ASL/Sign/special needs stuff...that's all in the past." When issues and concerns (like socialization or dog paddling in the mainstream) come up, parents are taught to think " Oh it's just MY kid. Everyone else is doing awesome.(meaning stereotypical AG Bell acheivers like the ones who go to Ivy League Schools and thrive with minimal accomondations) Just look at the list of colleges that AG Bell scholarship winners attend in Volta Voices. Look at this article about a kid who does this or that!"
They aren't aware that ASL is a great second language for many kids.
Many of them are laboring under the misconception that it's ASL and Deaf schools that cause a crappy education.
Also, the thing is that the oral kids are glad they have oral skills yes.....Nothing wrong with that. Many of us are glad to be orally able. But so often the reason they're glad they're oral is based on outdated thinking like " I got a better education then an ASLer or I got a better education then if I'd gone to a Deaf School or a program." Meanwhile they praise being oral and how wonderful it is to be a part of the Hearing world. Then in their next breath they complain that there's nothing like 'terps for oral dhh folks or that they have very few hearing friends or never had a serious boyfriend or girlfriend, and hated speech therapy. Heck a lot of them may be just parroting what their parents think. Heck, many of them would prolly show another face if they saw jillo in therapy.
You are also missing that many of those people weren't given a full toolbox. They weren't given a choice in the first place. Oral only has really demonized ASL and Deaf culture. ....but if you've never had the option, how do you know it's not something helpful.
Besides, if there are a lot of oral only as kids people, who are happy being oral then how come AG Bell has such a hard time finding adult oral only role models? Matter of fact, one of the speakers at the mainstream conference had a progressive mildly hoh loss, and another one used ASL, even though she could hear and speak!!!!! This is an AG BELL conference....and there were only a handful of oral deaf adults in attendence...this was at a HUGE event.
 
posts from hell said:
If I paid for my child to go to a private school - i'd expect them to stay there becuz im paying for it. My money isnt going to them just so they can say "oh hey, your kid is ready for the mainstream!" one day....

And usually the reason people put students in private schools is because they usually are better than the mainstream as well.
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I agree! Mainstream is a no-go for Deaf children, IMO.
 
deafdyke said:
Um no. If Clarke went up to 12, it might not have issues with declining enrollment, since it would have ALL the kids who are struggling emotionally and socially. in high school. (and there are a LOT of them from what I saw at the Mainstream conference)
Grades 1 - 8


Or what they THINK is best for their kids. I do think many parents are basicly stumbling in the dark when it comes to education for their dhh kids. Just like my parents did. The parents of today listen to the oral experts and the audis who say " Oh your kid doesn't need ASL/Sign/special needs stuff...that's all in the past." When issues and concerns (like socialization or dog paddling in the mainstream) come up, parents are taught to think " Oh it's just MY kid. Everyone else is doing awesome.(meaning stereotypical AG Bell acheivers like the ones who go to Ivy League Schools and thrive with minimal accomondations) Just look at the list of colleges that AG Bell scholarship winners attend in Volta Voices. Look at this article about a kid who does this or that!"
They aren't aware that ASL is a great second language for many kids.
Many of them are laboring under the misconception that it's ASL and Deaf schools that cause a crappy education.
Also, the thing is that the oral kids are glad they have oral skills yes.....Nothing wrong with that. Many of us are glad to be orally able. But so often the reason they're glad they're oral is based on outdated thinking like " I got a better education then an ASLer or I got a better education then if I'd gone to a Deaf School or a program." Meanwhile they praise being oral and how wonderful it is to be a part of the Hearing world. Then in their next breath they complain that there's nothing like 'terps for oral dhh folks or that they have very few hearing friends or never had a serious boyfriend or girlfriend, and hated speech therapy. Heck a lot of them may be just parroting what their parents think. Heck, many of them would prolly show another face if they saw jillo in therapy.
You are also missing that many of those people weren't given a full toolbox. They weren't given a choice in the first place. Oral only has really demonized ASL and Deaf culture. ....but if you've never had the option, how do you know it's not something helpful.
Besides, if there are a lot of oral only as kids people, who are happy being oral then how come AG Bell has such a hard time finding adult oral only role models? Matter of fact, one of the speakers at the mainstream conference had a progressive mildly hoh loss, and another one used ASL, even though she could hear and speak!!!!! This is an AG BELL conference....and there were only a handful of oral deaf adults in attendence...this was at a HUGE event.
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Good post! Access to both is important.....and you don't have to be mainstreamed to get mastery in English.
 
shel90 said:
You know what is sooooo ironic? Parents pay major bucks for these private schools due to the class sizes being small or so what I was told but yet, many parents are hesistant to send their children to deaf schools even though the class sizes are small as well but opt to mainstream their deaf children in classes with 30 plus kids.

Something to think about. Prejudice or ignorant views about Deaf schools, perhaps? :hmm:
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Actually they are some deaf adults that are glad that they didn't go to a deaf school when they were younger.
 
shel90 said:
Again...it is evident that it is ABOUT the PARENTS, not about the CHILDREN! Nothing new. :roll:

How much more of that BS do we have to listen to? GEEZ!
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But keep in mind there are currently some deaf adults that are actually glad about the route their parents chose for them. And that whatever route that was chosen for them was also based on them as an individual. And that it wasn't automatically chosen cause there was this perception that ALL of the little deaf children should automatically take a certain route just cause they were deaf or cause that was the route that was chosen for other deaf children or cause of how other deaf adults were living at the time. And that it also depends on each deaf individual.
 
Hohtopics said:
But keep in mind there are currently some deaf adults that are actually glad about the route their parents chose for them. And that whatever route that was chosen for them was also based on them as an individual. And that it wasn't automatically chosen cause there was this perception that ALL of the little deaf children should automatically take a certain route just cause they were deaf or cause that was the route that was chosen for other deaf children or cause of how other deaf adults were living at the time. And that it also depends on each deaf individual.
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We're well aware of that. Have we ever said that each and every single deaf person on this board had a horrible upbringing?
 
shel90 said:
You know what is sooooo ironic? Parents pay major bucks for these private schools due to the class sizes being small or so what I was told but yet, many parents are hesistant to send their children to deaf schools even though the class sizes are small as well but opt to mainstream their deaf children in classes with 30 plus kids.

Something to think about. Prejudice or ignorant views about Deaf schools, perhaps? :hmm:
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Small classes vs. 30+ kids in a room is a huge benefit, yes! But that benefit applies to the oral programs as well, in fact I found that Clarke would have provided smaller teacher-student ratios (with their teachers having better credentials in the age range I was looking).

But there's so much more that we took into consideration, not the least was the peer group, one issue people haven't mentioned. When choosing a school, one of the biggest factors is the effect that peer group (and by extension, their families) will have on your child: are they academically-driven, are their values similar, will they challenge your child, are they open-minded, will your child find a community in which he /she fits/makes friends, etc.. And that's not universal across all ASL-based deaf schools, all oral-based deaf schools, all mainstreamed environments -- if I lived in a different location, and was assessing a different set of schools as options, I might find a better match in an oral school, in a mainstream class, school at home, or maybe I'd once again find the perfect bi-bi environment that we have now.

I can't say it any better than Marschark does, there's just no one magic bullet for educating deaf kids, and fortunately, most parents of deaf children today have greater access to much more information to work with and to guide them then parents did 20, 30, 40 years ago -- in part because of those parents and their children who have worked towards making that info. available. And parents can work with their children and their needs to find the best placement.
 
Wirelessly posted

dd, it is clear that you went to a clarke mainstreaming conference once and that you are only talking about that.

as for oral advocates "talking badly" about ASL, i have never experienced that. Not a single oral school (in my experience) has said that ASL is bad or that they forbid signing. They have all included asl in language testing assessments as well as saying that asl is useful and that many kids and families use it. BUT on the other side, i HAVE had many ASL advocates say that my child is suffering because of spoken language, that she will never succeed because of spoken language, that spoken language will leave her will cognitive issues, that spoken language will cause her to have learning deficits.....who is being ugly here? Who is trying to play on fear?
 
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faire_jour said:
Wirelessly posted

dd, it is clear that you went to a clarke mainstreaming conference once and that you are only talking about that.

as for oral advocates "talking badly" about ASL, i have never experienced that. Not a single oral school has said that ASL is bad or that they forbid signing. They have all included asl in language testing assessments as well as saying that asl is useful and that many kids and families use it. BUT on the other side, i HAVE had many ASL advocates say that my child is suffering because of spoken language, that she will never succeed because of spoken language, that spoken language will leave her will cognitive issues, that spoken language will cause her to have learning deficits.....who is being ugly here? Who is trying to play on fear?
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I would never use the words "Not a single"... Just because they dont tell you doesnt mean anything.

One of the oral schools you do speak highly of actually has a shady history. :shock: But again, you know everything, and I am not getting into it.
 
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posts from hell said:
faire_jour said:
Wirelessly posted

dd, it is clear that you went to a clarke mainstreaming conference once and that you are only talking about that.

as for oral advocates "talking badly" about ASL, i have never experienced that. Not a single oral school has said that ASL is bad or that they forbid signing. They have all included asl in language testing assessments as well as saying that asl is useful and that many kids and families use it. BUT on the other side, i HAVE had many ASL advocates say that my child is suffering because of spoken language, that she will never succeed because of spoken language, that spoken language will leave her will cognitive issues, that spoken language will cause her to have learning deficits.....who is being ugly here? Who is trying to play on fear?
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I would never use the words "Not a single"... Just because they dont tell you doesnt mean anything.

One of the oral schools you do speak highly of actually has a shady history. :shock: But again, you know everything, and I am not getting into it.
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why make an accusation like that and then not back it up?
 
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