If CIs didnt involve surgery...

Cloggy said:
It's not oppression , it's not about parent's attitude, it is about parents wanting their children to be as good as possible. And when a child learns to speak, it learns it from the rolemodels around it.

Have you seen "Sound and Fury" where in the first part the mother (a CODA) of the child that will be operated explained how she needed speech therapy because she spoke like a deaf person, even though she was hearing.
Her role-models were her deaf parents..
After Lotte was operated, she needed to catch up on sound and speech. In order to do that, you want the best as a parent....

BTW, Shel,
Would u want a teacher who is deaf himself/herself with so so oral skills teaching your child?
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So deaf role models are not good enough and the children are still deaf. Why not the parents BE the role models for spoken language and the teachers be role models for both sign and spoken language? What's so wrong with that?
 
Cloggy said:
That's sad, because these children with CI need speech and sounds.

I know a child with CI that stayed on the "deaf" kindergarten (the first one Lotte was on..) and continued to use sign, since everyone around uses sign. He is lacking in speech. Speaking and understanding.. (But he's great with sign!)
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Is it the end of the world for them if they dont get speech and sounds? They got put into that program cuz THEY FELL SO FAR BEHIND in the oral only approach. They were unable to rely on spoken language alone without sign language which is why they got transferred to that program so they can catch up using sign language and *gasp* yes..it is in a public school not in a deaf school. As long as the children are acquiring knowledge, literacy skills, problem solving skills and higher critical thinking skills, there is nothing "sad" about not developing speech and sounds. Surprise Surprise...yes we deaf people who use sign language are VERY intelligent and have advanced thinking skills . I know so many deaf people who have NO speech skills who possess multiple degrees and consider themselves successful in their professional and personal lives...so there is nothing "sad" about that. In the oral only philosophy that would be considered sad cuz they cant "speak" using their voice box. They can "speak" using their hands...no difference. Hearing people can adapt to meet deaf needs if needed...but the problem is most dont want to.
 
jillio said:
Please, cloggy, do not make the assumption that expressive oral skills are in line with receptive oral skills in the deaf child. It is generally assumed that because the deaf child speaks well, they are also able to understand what is being said with the same degree of proficiency, and this is a fallacy in the vast majority of cases. And an increase in vocabulary does not equal an increase in comprehension.
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Totally agree..
 
jillio said:
Unfortunately, shel, one of the ocnsequences of the last surge in oralism was that deaf teachers at deaf schools lost their jobs and were replaced by the oral professionalized teachers of the deaf. That is also the point at which literacy rates began to decline, drop out rates of deaf students increased, and we began to see the problems that continue today. Unfortunately, one of the problems I see with CI is that it has been responsible to this return to the oralist philosophy that not only was not successful historically and continues to be hugely unsuccessful for the majority, but continues to create problems that are not inherent in deafness but are created by a practice that does not capitalize on the deaf child's strengths. It would appear that we have learned nothing from history and are therefore, doomed to repeat it. I can't see the tremendous progress in that.
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That's why if I lose my job and dont get a job working in the oral deaf ed programs cuz parents and administrators ,who has the view of being deaf with a less than perfect speech not being qualified enough in their eyes despite our multiple teaching degrees, certifications, and a weath of experience, wouldnt want ME or others like my brother who has NO oral skills teaching their precious kids and f**cking up their speech development, it is "screw it" to deaf ed. I will pursue something else. I have no idea what is out there for me with my professional background. Who knows?
 
jillio said:
Please, cloggy, do not make the assumption that expressive oral skills are in line with receptive oral skills in the deaf child. It is generally assumed that because the deaf child speaks well, they are also able to understand what is being said with the same degree of proficiency, and this is a fallacy in the vast majority of cases. And an increase in vocabulary does not equal an increase in comprehension.
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I agree, so distorted language from a deaf person would not help, no would it.!!
 
jillio said:
I don't understand why that is a bad thing. If they are using sim com, then the child is being exposed to speech sounds. He is naturally using the sign to facilitate his understanding.
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If.....

When parents chose the path of CI, oral comnunication is the goal. When sign can be used to establish this, that's great, because the transition from sign to speech can be more fluent.
But an all-sign classroom would do nothing to reach the goal of learning to discriminate sounds and learning to speak.

But before we rush into assumptions on the class.... lets wait for some more info about how and what is being taught....
 
shel90 said:
Is it the end of the world for them if they dont get speech and sounds? They got put into that program cuz THEY FELL SO FAR BEHIND in the oral only approach. They were unable to rely on spoken language alone without sign language which is why they got transferred to that program so they can catch up using sign language and *gasp* yes..it is in a public school not in a deaf school. ...
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That's additional information....

I had in mind children that just have CI and need to use it.... not CI-users that cannot use the CI....

There you go.... you providing too little information, me assuming wrong things.....
 
Cloggy said:
I agree, so distorted language from a deaf person would not help, no would it.!!
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Ironically that the education of the deaf is starting to discriminate against deaf professionals. Isnt that sending a wrong message to your daughter? That deaf people cant become teachers or teacher aides if they dont have perfect speech?
 
Cloggy said:
If.....

When parents chose the path of CI, oral comnunication is the goal. When sign can be used to establish this, that's great, because the transition from sign to speech can be more fluent.
But an all-sign classroom would do nothing to reach the goal of learning to discriminate sounds and learning to speak.

But before we rush into assumptions on the class.... lets wait for some more info about how and what is being taught....
Click to expand...

Why cant the parents be the role models for that or is that too difficult for parents in general? I am trying to understand...if the CI user is from a hearing family, they get the exposure to spoken language at home...so..what is the problem with using sign language for teaching concepts since there is no guarantee that the child will catch every word being discussed in the oral-only classroom? there are speech teachers that teach children how to discriminate between sounds and learn to speak. My DEAF school has a team of speech specialist for that job.
 
Cloggy said:
If.....

When parents chose the path of CI, oral comnunication is the goal. When sign can be used to establish this, that's great, because the transition from sign to speech can be more fluent.
But an all-sign classroom would do nothing to reach the goal of learning to discriminate sounds and learning to speak.

But before we rush into assumptions on the class.... lets wait for some more info about how and what is being taught....
Click to expand...

And that is the point I have been making all along. The goal is to make a deaf child appear "less deaf" and "more hearing". The goal is oral communication, not education. I propose that the goal should be reversed, and that the method of communciation is not nearly so important as the fact that true communication and interaction takes place. And this is also why I maintain the the CI is causing a resurgence in the strict oral philosophy that has created so much harm in the past.
 
shel90 said:
Why cant the parents be the role models for that or is that too difficult for parents in general? I am trying to understand...if the CI user is from a hearing family, they get the exposure to spoken language at home...so..what is the problem with using sign language for teaching concepts since there is no guarantee that the child will catch every word being discussed in the oral-only classroom? there are speech teachers that teach children how to discriminate between sounds and learn to speak. My DEAF school has a team of speech specialist for that job.
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EXACTLY! The goal of the classroom is to educate.
 
jackiesolorzano said:
Both of my teenagers have CI and have been very successful with them. The reason they are successful is because I did not expect a miracle with the CIs. I am an oral teacher of deaf and am currently working with CI preschoolers. The most successful kids with CI's are the ones that the parents realize the CI"S are not miracles cures. CI's can be great tools if everything is in place and if parents know, understand, and are willing to do all the extra work. My most successful students are the ones that have families that work hard with them and are willing to do what it takes.
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That's excellent!
 
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jackiesolorzano said:
Both of my teenagers have CI and have been very successful with them. The reason they are successful is because I did not expect a miracle with the CIs. I am an oral teacher of deaf and am currently working with CI preschoolers. The most successful kids with CI's are the ones that the parents realize the CI"S are not miracles cures. CI's can be great tools if everything is in place and if parents know, understand, and are willing to do all the extra work. My most successful students are the ones that have families that work hard with them and are willing to do what it takes.
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Great post, agree with you 100%!
+100
 
jackiesolorzano said:
Both of my teenagers have CI and have been very successful with them. The reason they are successful is because I did not expect a miracle with the CIs. I am an oral teacher of deaf and am currently working with CI preschoolers. The most successful kids with CI's are the ones that the parents realize the CI"S are not miracles cures. CI's can be great tools if everything is in place and if parents know, understand, and are willing to do all the extra work. My most successful students are the ones that have families that work hard with them and are willing to do what it takes.
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Great. Can you tell us what happens to the ones who fall through the cracks and the percentage they comprise of the whole?
 
jillio said:
No, cloggy they aren't. Unless, of course you are an audist.
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Throwing the audist card.... Was that really nessasary?

"Only if your main concern is speech production and imitation, not education."
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Children learn to speak by imitation from their surroundings, with this they produce speech wich allows them to ask questions and learn / be educated.

Education can also come with sign, but that doesn't make the above wrong !
 
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