If CIs didnt involve surgery...

shel90 said:
Oh well..everyone is entitled to bring up whatever they want. Not everyone has to agree or like each other's interests or curiousity.
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True and that wasn't my point. Typically, I totally ignore threads like this and stay the heck away (silence on a subject is often more powerful than words... ;) )

Sometimes somebody has to call a spade a spade (or put differently... proclaim "The emperior has no clothes on!"). But I will fall back on "Each to their own".
 
sr171soars said:
True and that wasn't my point. Typically, I totally ignore threads like this and stay the heck away (silence on a subject is often more powerful than words... ;) )

Sometimes somebody has to call a spade a spade (or put differently... proclaim "The emperior has no clothes on!"). But I will fall back on "Each to their own".
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Ok
 
Cloggy said:
Hi Fragmenter,
long time no read....

Jillio is not against CI, she just sees a lot of people that have CI and have no benefit from it. This in combination with a lack in sign-language abilities creates problems.... and she see lots of them.

(I'm sure Jillio will correct me where I went wrong..)
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Both of my teenagers have CI and have been very successful with them. The reason they are successful is because I did not expect a miracle with the CIs. I am an oral teacher of deaf and am currently working with CI preschoolers. The most successful kids with CI's are the ones that the parents realize the CI"S are not miracles cures. CI's can be great tools if everything is in place and if parents know, understand, and are willing to do all the extra work. My most successful students are the ones that have families that work hard with them and are willing to do what it takes.
 
jackiesolorzano said:
Both of my teenagers have CI and have been very successful with them. The reason they are successful is because I did not expect a miracle with the CIs. I am an oral teacher of deaf and am currently working with CI preschoolers. The most successful kids with CI's are the ones that the parents realize the CI"S are not miracles cures. CI's can be great tools if everything is in place and if parents know, understand, and are willing to do all the extra work. My most successful students are the ones that have families that work hard with them and are willing to do what it takes.
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EXCELLENT post!!! I've always tried to put forward the viewpoint that the CI is a tool to HELP a person excel, and not a magic wand that will solve everything. Its just another thing to add to the "Total Communication" toolbox. I hope you will share some of the experiences of your children with us!!
 
jackiesolorzano said:
Both of my teenagers have CI and have been very successful with them. The reason they are successful is because I did not expect a miracle with the CIs. I am an oral teacher of deaf and am currently working with CI preschoolers. The most successful kids with CI's are the ones that the parents realize the CI"S are not miracles cures. CI's can be great tools if everything is in place and if parents know, understand, and are willing to do all the extra work. My most successful students are the ones that have families that work hard with them and are willing to do what it takes.
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I am curious...would the oral deaf program hire teachers that are deaf themselves? I may lose my job at the school in the future due to declining enrollment cuz of more and more deaf children being put in oral programs so I want to prepare myself if I would get hired or not at oral programs even though I am deaf. I dont have perfect speech and my lipreading/listening skills are not so good. Be honest pls so I can prepare myself in about 5 years whether I should give up teaching and find another career. Thanks

I asked the parents that in another thread and nobody answered that cuz I think they are too scared to tell me the honest truth.

If my school closes, it would be ironic that many deaf people would be put out of jobs by the education for the deaf. :ugh3:
 
shel90 said:
................. I may lose my job at the school in the future due to declining enrollment cuz of more and more deaf children being put in oral programs .......
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You mean there are fewer and fewer deaf people that will need special education....??? Why's that?

After all, the school you are teaching on gets many children that cannot cope in the oral programs...
 
Cloggy said:
You mean there are fewer and fewer deaf people that will need special education....??? Why's that?

After all, the school you are teaching on gets many children that cannot cope in the oral programs...
Click to expand...

I didnt ask about why kids are being put in the oral programs..I am asking about MY future as a teacher. I need to know if I am shit out of luck or what? All that hard work going to school will be waste? Gosh, I did a lot of thinking last night after I posted my question...I think I would give up teaching if that happened so no biggie if my question gets answered or not.

Anyways to answer to your question..cuz more and more public schools are using TC and the kids who dont do well, end up being put in the special ed classes. Before, when the kids dont do well, there was no program to meet their needs so they got sent to the deaf schools but now more and more public schools are getting the funding to start TC or signing programs due to NCLB so more kids are being kept at the public schools but get transferred to the "special" needs classes. There is a whole program in Baltimore county in which there are like 25 students and about 22 of them have CIs but they are lumped together in one class with sign language. I dont think that is a great idea cuz what's fun for older kids being put in the same class as younger kids? For now, we are getting the students who couldnt cope with oral programs but many counties (school districts) are just starting up alternative programs of their own for those deaf kids who do not do well.
 
shel90 said:
Would u want a teacher who is deaf himself/herself with so so oral skills teaching your daughter?
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No,
That's the reason why we chose for Lotte to go to a "hearing" kindergarten. In order to have good role-models. Children AND adults.

In the other kindergarten, the teachers would use sign with everything, being use to that.
We noticed that even when Lotte would use speach to address a teacher, the reply would be with speach AND sign.
We felt that when the child does not use sign, the reply should be without sign as well. When parts of the communication are not understood, sign is great to fill in the gaps, but there will be fewer and fewer gaps as vocabulary grows.
 
shel90 said:
............... There is a whole program in Baltimore county in which there are like 25 students and about 22 of them have CIs but they are lumped together in one class with sign language. ..........
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That's sad, because these children with CI need speech and sounds.

I know a child with CI that stayed on the "deaf" kindergarten (the first one Lotte was on..) and continued to use sign, since everyone around uses sign. He is lacking in speech. Speaking and understanding.. (But he's great with sign!)
 
Cloggy said:
No,
That's the reason why we chose for Lotte to go to a "hearing" kindergarten. In order to have good role-models. Children AND adults.

In the other kindergarten, the teachers would use sign with everything, being use to that.
We noticed that even when Lotte would use speach to address a teacher, the reply would be with speach AND sign.
We felt that when the child does not use sign, the reply should be without sign as well. When parts of the communication are not understood, sign is great to fill in the gaps, but there will be fewer and fewer gaps as vocabulary grows.
Click to expand...

Thanks for being honest. I knew it..already that attitude from parents about staff who r deaf and don't have oral skills is happening. Don't u think that is oppression happening again for deaf people? That's why if I lose my job, it is "f$#^k" u to deaf ed for me. Iam outta here cuz I wud end up being bitter again so not worth for me to continue with the career I worked so hard to get. Notghing new with the hearing world oppressing deaf people and putting us out of jobs. It is starting to happen here in the USA with my deaf friends not being hired by oral programs.

Thanks for your honesty and no iam not mad at u. Matter of fact I am already warning many of my friends who r deaf not to become teachers due to that reason. Why waste their time and money for a field that is not going to be kind to them in the near future?
 
shel90 said:
Thanks for being honest. I knew it..already that attitude from parents about staff who r deaf and don't have oral skills is happening. Don't u think that is oppression happening again for deaf people? ...........
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It's not oppression , it's not about parent's attitude, it is about parents wanting their children to be as good as possible. And when a child learns to speak, it learns it from the rolemodels around it.

Have you seen "Sound and Fury" where in the first part the mother (a CODA) of the child that will be operated explained how she needed speech therapy because she spoke like a deaf person, even though she was hearing.
Her role-models were her deaf parents..
After Lotte was operated, she needed to catch up on sound and speech. In order to do that, you want the best as a parent....

BTW, Shel,
Would u want a teacher who is deaf himself/herself with so so oral skills teaching your child?
 
neecy said:
EXCELLENT post!!! I've always tried to put forward the viewpoint that the CI is a tool to HELP a person excel, and not a magic wand that will solve everything. Its just another thing to add to the "Total Communication" toolbox. I hope you will share some of the experiences of your children with us!!
Click to expand...

And, if you are using a Total Communication toolbox, it would likely follow that you would have your child, both at home and educationally in a Total Communciation atmosphere. Unfortunately, that is not what is happening with CI children. The majority are placed in oral only environments, fall behind educationally, and when they are so far behand tha the oral schools and the mainstreamed classrooms no longer know what to do with them, they are imported into the deaf schools so far behind that it is impossible to bring them up to grade level in the amount of time remaining in their educational career. Then the deaf schools are blamed for low literacy rates. In fact, language deprivation is the culprit, and it is the direct result of the oral environment. What is being toutedin philosophy, and what is happening in reality are two different things.
 
shel90 said:
I am curious...would the oral deaf program hire teachers that are deaf themselves? I may lose my job at the school in the future due to declining enrollment cuz of more and more deaf children being put in oral programs so I want to prepare myself if I would get hired or not at oral programs even though I am deaf. I dont have perfect speech and my lipreading/listening skills are not so good. Be honest pls so I can prepare myself in about 5 years whether I should give up teaching and find another career. Thanks

I asked the parents that in another thread and nobody answered that cuz I think they are too scared to tell me the honest truth.

If my school closes, it would be ironic that many deaf people would be put out of jobs by the education for the deaf. :ugh3:
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, shel, one of the ocnsequences of the last surge in oralism was that deaf teachers at deaf schools lost their jobs and were replaced by the oral professionalized teachers of the deaf. That is also the point at which literacy rates began to decline, drop out rates of deaf students increased, and we began to see the problems that continue today. Unfortunately, one of the problems I see with CI is that it has been responsible to this return to the oralist philosophy that not only was not successful historically and continues to be hugely unsuccessful for the majority, but continues to create problems that are not inherent in deafness but are created by a practice that does not capitalize on the deaf child's strengths. It would appear that we have learned nothing from history and are therefore, doomed to repeat it. I can't see the tremendous progress in that.
 
Cloggy said:
You mean there are fewer and fewer deaf people that will need special education....??? Why's that?

After all, the school you are teaching on gets many children that cannot cope in the oral programs...
Click to expand...

It isn't that fewer deaf children need education for the deaf and by the deaf--it is that fewer and fewer children are being provided the oppotunity to benefit from it. Deaf education does not fall into the category of other special education services, where curriculum and methodology are changed to accommodate the disability in learning or intellectual abililty. Deaf education uses the same curriculum mandated for hearing students, and the same methodology is used to present it. The change is in the language of instruction. The language is changed to enable students to function at the same educational level as hearing students because after all, the Deaf population by and large has the same intellectual capabilities as the hearing population. They are prevent from performing up to their abilities not by their deafness, but because the matierial is present in a linguistically confusing format.
 
shel90 said:
I didnt ask about why kids are being put in the oral programs..I am asking about MY future as a teacher. I need to know if I am shit out of luck or what? All that hard work going to school will be waste? Gosh, I did a lot of thinking last night after I posted my question...I think I would give up teaching if that happened so no biggie if my question gets answered or not.

Anyways to answer to your question..cuz more and more public schools are using TC and the kids who dont do well, end up being put in the special ed classes. Before, when the kids dont do well, there was no program to meet their needs so they got sent to the deaf schools but now more and more public schools are getting the funding to start TC or signing programs due to NCLB so more kids are being kept at the public schools but get transferred to the "special" needs classes. There is a whole program in Baltimore county in which there are like 25 students and about 22 of them have CIs but they are lumped together in one class with sign language. I dont think that is a great idea cuz what's fun for older kids being put in the same class as younger kids? For now, we are getting the students who couldnt cope with oral programs but many counties (school districts) are just starting up alternative programs of their own for those deaf kids who do not do well.
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Exactly. They create the situation that causes these kids to fail academically, and then they label them as of inferior ability and stick them in a general purpose special ed class. This creates a self fulfilling prophecy and these kids live with this stigma for the rest of their lives. These kids to not fail educationally because they are deaf, they fail because of the ignorance of the system and the people setting policy.
 
Cloggy said:
No,
That's the reason why we chose for Lotte to go to a "hearing" kindergarten. In order to have good role-models. Children AND adults.

In the other kindergarten, the teachers would use sign with everything, being use to that.
We noticed that even when Lotte would use speach to address a teacher, the reply would be with speach AND sign.
We felt that when the child does not use sign, the reply should be without sign as well. When parts of the communication are not understood, sign is great to fill in the gaps, but there will be fewer and fewer gaps as vocabulary grows.
Click to expand...

Please, cloggy, do not make the assumption that expressive oral skills are in line with receptive oral skills in the deaf child. It is generally assumed that because the deaf child speaks well, they are also able to understand what is being said with the same degree of proficiency, and this is a fallacy in the vast majority of cases. And an increase in vocabulary does not equal an increase in comprehension.
 
Cloggy said:
That's sad, because these children with CI need speech and sounds.

I know a child with CI that stayed on the "deaf" kindergarten (the first one Lotte was on..) and continued to use sign, since everyone around uses sign. He is lacking in speech. Speaking and understanding.. (But he's great with sign!)
Click to expand...

I don't understand why that is a bad thing. If they are using sim com, then the child is being exposed to speech sounds. He is naturally using the sign to facilitate his understanding.
 
Cloggy said:
It's not oppression , it's not about parent's attitude, it is about parents wanting their children to be as good as possible. And when a child learns to speak, it learns it from the rolemodels around it.

Have you seen "Sound and Fury" where in the first part the mother (a CODA) of the child that will be operated explained how she needed speech therapy because she spoke like a deaf person, even though she was hearing.
Her role-models were her deaf parents..
After Lotte was operated, she needed to catch up on sound and speech. In order to do that, you want the best as a parent....

BTW, Shel,
Would u want a teacher who is deaf himself/herself with so so oral skills teaching your child?
Click to expand...

And as good as possible is oral? Don't you see the inherent insult to those deaf who are not oral in this statement?

And, I'm not shel, but I feel compelled to answer your question. My son was educated by several teachers who not only were deaf with so so oral skills--some of the (OMG!) had no oral skills. And he is a successful college student as a result.
 
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