IEP help

Ok, then how about sign supported speech, or key word signing. These would be in a one on one setting and not for general instruction.

Yea, that's how it is done at the program where I work at. General instruction is taught using ASL and then after the concept is taught, the kids split into small groups and those who have auditory capabilities, spoken English without signing is used and if the kids don't understand, then ASL with voice-off is used and then go back to spoken English. Kinda like the sandwich method. About 25% of our students r able to use both languages (in the air) effectively. The rest of them are mostly kids who came to our program at an older age with language delays and their English/ASL are so weak due to not having full access to any languages or kids who do not have the innate ability to develop oral skills. We focus on building a strong language foundation using the proper model of ASL when they come to us. Some of them still go to speech classes for support in English.

What u said is a good idea and u can bring that up at the IEP meeting. Won't hurt to try.
 
true sometimes preschoolers have meeting twice a year to discuss redo IEPs if goals are mastered.

Did you ask for this meeting or did the school ask for it? How are her goals? Which end does it focus on ASL or oral language?

I asked for the meeting. We do not have an active IEP, and the school is out of compliance because of it.

We have both overall language (ASL) goals, and spoken language goals.
 
I asked for the meeting. We do not have an active IEP, and the school is out of compliance because of it.

We have both overall language (ASL) goals, and spoken language goals.

Out of compliance, oh....a big issue there. I know you are on top of everything, but be careful that they don't try to rush through the IEP because of it. (Tennessee allowed <10% of IEP to be out of compliance. big struggle with it)

It is difficult to find an "ideal" program, but what would be your ideal program for Miss Kat?
 
Out of compliance, oh....a big issue there. I know you are on top of everything, but be careful that they don't try to rush through the IEP because of it. (Tennessee allowed <10% of IEP to be out of compliance. big struggle with it)

It is difficult to find an "ideal" program, but what would be your ideal program for Miss Kat?

It would be a "Dual Language" program. Meaning a true 50/50 split between ASL and spoken English. It would have 2 teachers, one for each language, and would have equal time and value for each language.
 
That sounds like the ideal program. Is there any program like that? Maybe even as a model for Miss Kat's school.
 
That sounds like the ideal program. Is there any program like that? Maybe even as a model for Miss Kat's school.

There are a few. Now that CI's are becoming so widely used a lot of traditionally ASL schools are starting to have CI programs. I know that Maryland School for the Deaf has one, and I was just reading about "The Maine Educational Center for the Deaf and Hard of Hearing". They have a program called "Sounds and Signs" that seems great.
 
It would be a "Dual Language" program. Meaning a true 50/50 split between ASL and spoken English. It would have 2 teachers, one for each language, and would have equal time and value for each language.

Yea, a lot of BiBi programs are starting to make plans to achieve this goal. Ask Miss Kat's school about that?
 
Yea, a lot of BiBi programs are starting to make plans to achieve this goal. Ask Miss Kat's school about that?

I plan to discuss it with them, but I doubt they will care. Miss Kat is one of maybe 20 kids who have any amplification, and there are probably one 5 or 6 who have oral skills better than her. It is really a school of Deaf of Deaf kids. It was started as a charter school by Deaf parents. CI's and speech aren't really their focus.
 
I plan to discuss it with them, but I doubt they will care. Miss Kat is one of maybe 20 kids who have any amplification, and there are probably one 5 or 6 who have oral skills better than her. It is really a school of Deaf of Deaf kids. It was started as a charter school by Deaf parents. CI's and speech aren't really their focus.


Schools of the Deaf has always gone through changes in the last century. Doesnt hurt to try...good luck!
 
Yes--academics are first, and in some cases speech right up there with it(and sometimes not)--BUT, I have come to realize the importance of socialization in recent years. I would not say that it outweighs academics and other goals, but it runs neck-and-neck with it. From our experience(and we have encountered "professionals" from many sides of the issue)--the importance of socialization has often been minimized and not given the proper attention by professionals. I guess that is why my advice seems to highlight social issues so much--my daughter has been very successful with her hearing and speech and she is doing quite well academically these days, but the social issues have yet to be resolved. If I could have done something in the past to help her socially, I would definitely be more focused on it than I was back then.

Yes, friends come and go through the years--that has definitely been the case with both of my children(deaf and hearing). We have moved several times, and the friends that my kids made also often moved--we are part of America's mobile society that doesn't stay in one place for a lifetime. When my daughter was younger, kids seemed oblivious to her differences--no one seemed to ostracize her, but no one bonded really closely with her, either. She seemed to fit right in with everyone else, but somehow there was still something a bit "off" with her social skills--sometimes she seemed to get along with kids a few years younger than her the best because they were on the same maturity level. BTW--I am referring to her socialization as an oral deaf child in a hearing world--she had no other deaf friends back then. For YEARS, all I kept saying was, "If only she had a best friend just like her!" She sometimes was able to socialize a bit at some events with other deaf kids in our area--the result was learning how FEW deaf kids lived in our area and how FEW of them were my daughter's age. There just were no other "girls like her" in our area! Now, the main reason she wants to go to a deaf high school is the SOCIAL aspect--even though I think that it will also be better for her academically, I feel almost certain that it will do wonders for her social life!

My point: at the beginning of elementary school, making sure our kids are getting the BEST education possible is very important--academics weigh heavily, that cannot be denied. And, in the case of a child with a CI who is hearing so well, often speech and oral language development is very important as well. But, I promise that the social issue will quickly make it's way to the forefront--it soon becomes just as important as other issues. So, I guess you are looking for three things: best academics, best access to speech and oral language development, and best socialization situation. For my daughter, we focused highly on the first two, and now we are focusing much more on the third--but I wish we could have found a better balance of all three things from the very beginning. As you have said, the ideal placement would have ALL of these things and wouldn't focus too heavily on one thing at the detriment of the other things. I do not know WHERE the ideal placement actually exists--most options seem to be lacking in one of these areas. But, as parents, we have to make a choice based on what is available to our child at any given time. I only wish there were more balanced choices for more of us! I think most parents of deaf children end up being heavily influenced in one way or another--and often our kids get shortchanged because of lack of resources in a specific area of need.

So, your daughter seems fluent in ASL and wants to become fluent in spoken English. My daughter is fluent in spoken English and wants to become fluent in ASL. They both need equal access to both languages without one being shortchanged. A school that is much more ASL than speech will make it difficult for your daughter to develop good spoken English. A school that is much more spoken English than ASL will make it difficult for my daughter to learn ASL. For most of my daughter's education, there was NO ASL--she was mainstreamed and had no exposure to it. For the past year and a half, she has been in a deaf/hh program at a mainstream school--the ASL interpreter and TOD go to almost every class with the 4 deaf students and interpret the teachers into ASL. Well, I say ASL, but I guess it is not the pure language of ASL--all 4 of the deaf students use spoken English as their primary language, and ASL(or sign anyway) is their second language(one boy seems more fluent in ASL than the others but they are picking it up). Even though she is exposed to it daily--and this year she is in a club that teaches sign language classes to the hearing students so she is learning even more--I would not say that my daughter is fluent in ASL yet. However, she DOES know a lot more sign now than she did before this program. From what I can see, the deaf school she wants to attend does a good job of balancing both languages--I hope she will continue to learn and will eventually feel as fluent as the other students. For your daughter, I guess it would be the same thing but in a different direction--she has a great language base through ASL at the school she currently attends, but she may not get a good spoken English base there. The ideal program would communicate with her through her primary language of ASL while giving her intense exposure to spoken English as well. Sadly, some ASL programs do not focus enough on oral language and some oral programs do not focus on ASL--an equal balance between the two is often needed for many kids! And, just as my daughter would not do well in an ASL only environment without constant oral English exposure, your daughter would struggle in an environment that is only spoken English and no ASL.

Maybe you should try to visit the oral program and see if it would be a good fit at all--mostly to see if there are other deaf kids your daughters age with CIs who use ASL and are learning to speak. Or, maybe you can bond with the parents of the kids at her current school who have CIs and are trying to focus on oral skills as you are--maybe there are enough of you to make it work there. If it isn't going to work out at the current school, then I hope that the other deaf education choice is a good one--if the oral program gives you a hard time about ASL, that will be an issue. I hope for the best for you and your daughter: hopefully you can either make her current situation change to meet her needs--or hopefully the other choice will properly meet her needs. I would hesitate on the mainstreaming option if I were you--being the only deaf student there and being the only one who uses ASL instead of speech can be tough! Once again, I really do think that socialization issues are SO important: making friends with other kids that "are like her" will be very important to your daughter as she ages. I hope that she finds friends like her, I hope that she excels academically, and I hope that she learns to listen with her CI as well as she can and develops good speech--and, of course, I hope that she can continue to communicate with others through ASL, too(but that will never go away so that is a given!).

I am nearing the end of the road that you are just beginning--I have to say that, while it is a long and arduous journey, it is a very special one! I have seen many sights along the way that made it a WONDERFUL journey! My daughter and I are very close--I think the fact that we have good communication together and I listen to her opinions makes a big difference. When she started asking to be in school with other deaf students, I threw out all of the advice I had been given to the contrary. When someone with "oral beliefs" asks me why I would want to send my daughter to a deaf school, I say that it is simple--because SHE wants to go!! Oh, and lately, she has asked to be taken out of things such as "boring speech therapy"--she only goes for a few minutes per week, but it seems like a waste of time to her. At this point, I think she is right--she speaks fine, and going over and over certain sounds at this point to try to "perfect them" really doesn't seem to make a big difference. Her speech isn't absolutely perfect, but it is pretty darn good--harping on certain sounds over and over isn't going to make them sound better! So, I will try to get that taken out of her next IEP--because SHE requested it. I know--when they are younger, parents have to make most of the decisions. But, as they mature, they need to be making a lot of these decisions themselves--placement, services, modifications, etc. If I can get my daughter to a deaf school for high school next year, I don't think she will go to speech therapy anymore, and I also don't think she will need to use an FM system in the small classrooms(another thing she wants to get out of her IEP!). She will continue to use her hearing through hearing aids, lipread, speak, etc.--and she will learn more and more sign language. I hope that there will truly be a good balance between speech and sign and she can become fluent in both. And she and I will stay close through: talking, text messaging, emailing, writing notes, signing etc.--however she wants to communicate with me, I will be there for her! :)
 
And, in the case of a child with a CI who is hearing so well, often speech and oral language development is very important as well. But, I promise that the social issue will quickly make it's way to the forefront--it soon becomes just as important as other issues
AMEN. even a lot of "oral sucesses" tend to have significent social issues. Social issues can and do significently effect how happy a student is, or how well they do in school. I know when I've been happy, I've done well in school, and when I've been unhappy, I've done badly in school.
 
and thank you deborah! ALL parents of dhh kids should be required to read your post. Honestly, most professionals seem to gloss over social difficulties.....yes, kids are mean but sheesh......I also don't get why parents and teachers are always so optimistic about mainstream social issues. Yes, kids can be accepting but kids can also be incredibily horriblely CRUEL. Oh god.....tacks on my chair, being told "you suck", or " You're not normal (this high and mighty "Christian Preacher's Kid bitch actually said that to MY FACE!) getting obscene letters, being thought of as retarded b/c of prejudicated assholes!
 
and thank you deborah! ALL parents of dhh kids should be required to read your post. Honestly, most professionals seem to gloss over social difficulties.....yes, kids are mean but sheesh......I also don't get why parents and teachers are always so optimistic about mainstream social issues. Yes, kids can be accepting but kids can also be incredibily horriblely CRUEL. Oh god.....tacks on my chair, being told "you suck", or " You're not normal (this high and mighty "Christian Preacher's Kid bitch actually said that to MY FACE!) getting obscene letters, being thought of as retarded b/c of prejudicated assholes!

OUCH! OUCH! OUCH! That must have hurt TERRIBLY!! :( I am so sorry to hear that! My daughter has faced a bit of cruelty, but mostly--she just gets ignored. You know how it is--"everyone" is invited to a sleepover or party but her...or "everyone" is huddled in a corner talking and laughing but her, or "everyone" is "popular" but her...that kind of stuff. As I watch her go through middle school, I have noticed some things: once the "popular" kids are "chosen," there isn't much changing the hierarchy--and the "popular crowd" usually will not include one of the four deaf kids in a mainstream school. Who "hangs out" with my daughter--um, I have to say, "troublemakers"--one girl in particular has claimed to be my daughter's friend, but she keeps trying to push her into things that are NOT good! My daughter says that there are a few other girls who are nice to her, but none have asked her to come over to their house or socialized with her outside of school. So, right now, my daughter's only "friend" seems to be a not so good match--and I am worried about what kind of trouble she could get into with this other girl. Oh, and the boy issue--seems that the boys that flirt with her and like her are ALSO the troublemakers(suspended from school, ran away from home for a few days, etc.)---AAHH!! I know--I cannot make friends for her--it is hard to say, "you cannot hang out with so-and-so"--although, some instances I have had to say, "you cannot go there with her because of what she did last time." All-in-all: at a mainstream school with a deaf/hh program of only 4 students, my daughter is gravitating to the 'bottom of the pile" socially. I NEED to get her out of there!! We are trying very hard to move, but the economy is killing us! I just keep thinking--and HOPING--that my daughter will be closer to the TOP socially at a deaf school--at least I hope! She really has a sweet and kind soul--she is very friendly and outgoing when she feels comfortable--and she is gorgeous!--I HOPE that helps her "fit in" at a deaf school! But for now, being a beautiful girl with a great personality isn't really doing her much good in a big mainstream school. Thankfully, her very young TOD and interpreter are both very "sisterly" to her--without them, we wouldn't make it! But they won't be going to the high school in the fall--I cannot imagine what an awful situation that would be for her if we can't get moved! SO, 2008 sucked and we were stuck here in a bad situation--but 2009 has GOT to bring better things! I am trying as hard as I can to make it work out better than it did last year!! We just need some GOOD luck on our side! Anyway--that is what is happening socially for my daughter, and I hope I can do something to make things better for her socially this year. She has already started talking about how she HOPES it will be once she gets to the deaf school--I hope it turns out to be as positive of an experience as she thinks it will be! At this point, it just HAS to be better than the way things are right now!!
 
Thanks for sharing in great detail, Deborah!

IMO - I don't think the parents should EMPHASIZE on academic so much in kids. in life - it is the teamwork and connection that makes you successful in academic and career. There are always plenty of time to study.... but it's very hard to socialize at later age than at early age especially when your best friends are teachers and books. so it's best to focus on social aspect to build up self-esteem and self-confidence especially for kids with disability because they will encounter difficult situations and rude people as they grow up.

:cool2:
 
IMO - I don't think the parents should EMPHASIZE on academic so much in kids. in life - it is the teamwork and connection that makes you successful in academic and career. There are always plenty of time to study.... but it's very hard to socialize at later age than at early age especially when your best friends are teachers and books. so it's best to focus on social aspect to build up self-esteem and self-confidence especially for kids with disability because they will encounter difficult situations and rude people as they grow up.

While I think there are parents who would disagree with the bolded statement, I have to say I completely agree with you. The social aspect was difficult growing up - it didn't get bad until about 5th grade when kids were old enough to start picking on me (up until then it wasn't a big deal to them that there was a deaf kid in their class, I guess.) It was horrible until 9th grade when I started high school. It was like something changed in the summer between 8th and 9th grade, that the kids grew up. I was no longer picked on, but I was totally ignored. So any socialization I had were with the "other unpopular kids". I begged my folks from about 5th grade and on to move me to another school, one with a larger mainstream program with more deaf kids and I would not be perceived as so different. But my parents refused, citing my education as the number one priority. I understand their reasoning (and as I said earlier, I graduated with honors because I did so well in school - my best and nearly-only friends were my books!) but it made any kind of social interaction suck (as you indicated in the underlined parts.) And that does a lot to a child's self-esteem.

Very good posting, Jiro.
 
it's very hard to socialize at later age than at early age especially when your best friends are teachers and books.

:cool2:

Yes--so that may be a common thing in this situation. Don't get me wrong--I absolutely LOVE my daughter's deaf/hh teacher and the interpreter. They are very young(early 20s), sweet, and beautiful--my daughter just LOVES them! They have taken a sisterly role with her--they invite her to go out to lunch with them, they go to football games together, etc. STILL--we are talking about a 14 year old girl hanging out with two 20-something teachers--it isn't exactly a good friendship situation. No--nothing strange or anything--they also invite the other 3 deaf students and sometimes they go, too--they are good teachers who bond with their students. But this is NOT a typical social life for a 14 year old! My daughter has spent some time with this other girl(the troublemaker who I do not like or trust, but how do you say that about your daughter's only "friend")--and she has gone to some school social events, but still...it could be SO much better! Hanging out with teachers at football games, basketball games, etc.--not the typical teen scene! They are very nice teachers and I appreciate everything they do for my daughter, but it just isn't the same thing as having lots of friends the same age. I dream of how it will be for my daughter at the deaf school--I know there will be social issues there, too, but I think they will be better than they are now!--I can only imagine how neat it will be for her to do things like: play volleyball with other deaf girls, hang out in the cafeteria and sign with other deaf friends, go to movies on campus together(which HOPEFULLY have closed captioning!), and do lots of fun things together with lots of deaf friends her age. And dating...oh, my...the dating scene: I won't "go there" right now, but my greatest fear is that a boy will take advantage of her innocence and naivity--that can happen anywhere, but I think it is more of a risk with her at a big mainstreamed high school. From what I hear, dating is monitored closely on campus at deaf schools--God I hope so!! I know--others may tell me things that would scare me about that...please, let me believe that she will be safer at a deaf school...having a teenage daughter makes parents worry about MANY things, and we can see the risk in her current environment that hopefully will be less at a deaf school--keeping her safe and protected is a MAJOR concern no matter where she goes to school! Anyway--I was focusing on the teachers as friends issue--I wonder if that is a common thing when deaf kids are in the mainstream(bonding with adults because the kids their age ignore them)--also, I wonder if a lot of deaf kids in the mainstream end up hanging around "the wrong crowd" because they aren't accepted by the "popular group." As I think about this, I am beginning to wonder how ANY deaf teens end up feeling good about being in the mainstream--it takes a strong personality, that's for sure! A "devil may care" attitude that maybe doesn't worry about what other people think--that is really rare at that age! Most teens I know are OVERLY concerned about what others think of them! I want my daughter to ENJOY her high school years--I hope I can find a way for this to happen! I want to look at a slide show at her graduation in a few years with lots of photos of her enjoying time with her friends--I think being at a deaf school will make that much more likely than being "alone in the mainstream". I know high school is not a perfect time in life--there are good things and bad things about it--but I have a lot of great memories of that time in my life--my daughter deserves to have those good memories, too! :)
 
Thanks for sharing in great detail, Deborah!

IMO - I don't think the parents should EMPHASIZE on academic so much in kids. in life - it is the teamwork and connection that makes you successful in academic and career. There are always plenty of time to study.... but it's very hard to socialize at later age than at early age especially when your best friends are teachers and books. so it's best to focus on social aspect to build up self-esteem and self-confidence especially for kids with disability because they will encounter difficult situations and rude people as they grow up.

:cool2:

Yes. This is a mirror of my experience, too.
 
Thanks for sharing in great detail, Deborah!

IMO - I don't think the parents should EMPHASIZE on academic so much in kids. in life - it is the teamwork and connection that makes you successful in academic and career. There are always plenty of time to study.... but it's very hard to socialize at later age than at early age especially when your best friends are teachers and books. so it's best to focus on social aspect to build up self-esteem and self-confidence especially for kids with disability because they will encounter difficult situations and rude people as they grow up.

:cool2:

:gpost: Well said, Jiro.
 
I would love to see the research that says that deaf children with poor oral skills find it easier to socialize with hearing children in the mainstream then deaf children with good oral language skills.

If having good oral language skills is not a key factor for deaf children developing social relationships with their hearing peers then what, according to your "reams" of yet to be produced research, are those key factors?

If, as you claim, several members of this forum allegedly have this research, then sending it to others should not be such a big deal.

Sending it to others is not a big deal. That is why several members of this forum have been sent copies.:doh:
 
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