I had three oprations

Cloggy said:
On the contrairy.
You really have no idea!

And even so... should veryone have it as tough as you had?

You think I have no idea ? Oh, yes I do. Life is tough and nothin' is goin' to be that easy. Hearin' parents have to learn to challenge. Know why ? Because, I don't think it is fair for a deaf child to CHALLENGE hearin' people by learnin' how to talk and lipreadin'. Why should it be a deaf child ?
 
CyberRed said:
You think I have no idea ? Oh, yes I do. Life is tough and nothin' is goin' to be that easy. Hearin' parents have to learn to challenge. Know why ? Because, I don't think it is fair for a deaf child to CHALLENGE hearin' people by learnin' how to talk and lipreadin'. Why should it be a deaf child ?
So deaf children should learn to talk and lipreading .... to challenge the parent.......

So, the child is deaf for the benefit of the parent...

WOW... you are really stretching it....
 
gnulinuxman said:
Seeing the post and remembering exactly what I said are two entirely different things. I didn't flip the finger.

Wanna bet? I'm sure Roadrunner remembers your post, too.
 
:liar: :liar: :liar: :liar:

Now see this picture of post as LIAR but this tiny middle finger that he did not create it . So complain to the owner if you mind.. DONT BLAME HIM FOR IT!!!!
 
Cloggy said:
So deaf children should learn to talk and lipreading .... to challenge the parent.......

So, the child is deaf for the benefit of the parent...

WOW... you are really stretching it....

It's interestin' to know that you and I are different people how we both see things. I am sorry that I don't accept CI implant on a small child. I don't mind if, it should wait until she/he gets older to make his/her own decision if, she/he wants it. I would prefer a deaf child to get to know himself/herself through sign language. Their first language before any other 2nd language.
 
Sweetmind said:
:liar: :liar: :liar: :liar:

Now see this picture of post as LIAR but this tiny middle finger that he did not create it . So complain to the owner if you mind.. DONT BLAME HIM FOR IT!!!!

Then why did GNU deny using that smiley? OH by the way, why are you using more than one? why not just show ONE? trigger happy?
 
:bsflag: :repost: :bsflag:

It is one thing to allow a person to choose to use an auditory device, but i see that it is unfair to decide for any individual to have a surgery that changes their physical properties. Once a person is mature enough to decide to have a CI surgically implanted, the decision should be made. To have a parent/guardian etc.choose this for a child is ridiculous. Why should it be ok to force a person into a surgery that they may rely on for their entire life.

Once a child has become accustomed to these devices it is something that they expect to have for the rest of their life. If the device fails or does not continue to work in the same way for their entire life, then they no longer can use what they have been expected to rely on. This is totally unfair to any child or adult. If they have the choice to decide whether to use an auditory device or not then they can make that decision for themselves. It is wrong to force anyone to depend on something when naturally they are not going to have that. Children cannot make that decision. They should have the choice to decide on adapting their physical properties on their own. This should not take place unless they have been fully educated on ALL of the possibilities...positive and negative.

If a child relies on the auditory device and then it suddenly isn’t working anymore, then it is something that they have no choice but to have taken from them. These surgeries are not inexpensive. It takes money to maintain these devices and not all people are able to keep up with this. What happens when a child decides that they do not want to utilize this technology?

It is wrong to force a person to rely on something each day, when naturally they may be better off without a device being implanted into their bodies. Insurance does not cover a CI removal. If a person chooses that route then more power to them,but it is not an issue that should be decided by a person that will not have to live with it. The person that is getting a surgery of this type or any other surgery should be allowed to choose for themselves. It is something that will have impact, whether positive or negative, a person for the rest of their life.

By forcing an individual into a life altering procedure it is the same as saying you are not “good” enough the way that you were born. You must change physically for you to be accepted by the real world. Is this really the impression we want to make on deaf children.

It is a huge put down to deaf childrens true identity. People must have a choice, it is only fair! We should appreciate the differences in all people. If we were all the same, then the world would be a very boring place.

Therefore we have the right to maintain the status we were born with...people need to learn to accept that. Any adaptation that needs to be made should be made within the faultfinders, not the children. Acceptance is KEY! Need I say more?

Seeing as how there are more cons than pros to getting a CI, ( as such stated in other topics), It is more responsible to NOT implant a child. You dont need to hear to be alive. And if a d/Deaf child is not good enough for you then you need to reconsider your morals and prejudices. Like it, love it, or leave it alone.


Deaf children do have NONCHOICE from the beginning. PERIOD!

Just encourage them to get the taste with HA First and no one can judge that she or he cannot hear with HA all the time. I find this is outrageous to force them to have CI too quickly because they have to do what HEARING people want for themselves. I dont agree anyone can screwed up with children's own properities or across their boundry line from anyone not even Parents. It is totally wrongdoing.

You should make the decision for them about CI device because it s not life threatening. So be it!

Thats the same concept of what 81 percent of ABUSED parents/teachers/workers/ toward the children at home or other places like Nursery School here more than Deaf school if you mind. So dont give me any more excuses that you think Deaf children have to have to hear while they dont hear everything that is not making any sense.. PERIOD!

So are Deaf children deserve to be punished for not having Deaf school/Deaf Teachers with a very Good Deaf Education? or ASL? or True Identity? .... plus keep deaf children away from other deaf children and their hands (to speak) and eyes (to see) to be useful that I DONT AGREE with you. PERIOD! Many parents dont bother to learn signs. They think their children can hear everything and lipread is 100 percent and make them speak all day or night. JEEZ! That s very seflish attitude.

WHY? Depend on interpreter as the third party (ies), Depend on CI device, CIers spend more time learning how to listen than learning about the world around them. Where is their freedom of being deaf? JEEZ!! you are insulting Deaf children's self esteem later in their life when they wake up and face the Deaf Reality.

Deaf is no good and Hearing is good. Sign Language is no good and Orally speaking is good thats what I m hearing this all the time. IF you mind!

Thank you!
Sweetmind
 
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Sweetmind said:
:liar: :liar: :liar: :liar:

Now see this picture of post as LIAR but this tiny middle finger that he did not create it . So complain to the owner if you mind.. DONT BLAME HIM FOR IT!!!!

Suuuuuuuuuure. :whistle:

I'll tell you this: GNU's really good at ---> :scatter:
 
To compress it a bit....
Sweetmind said:
.......... HEARING ...........ABUSED........... PERIOD! ............ I DONT AGREE ......... PERIOD! ......... JEEZ! .......... JEEZ!! ............
Thank you!
Sweetmind
Again, showing you don't have a clue...

Sweetmind said:
"Just encourage them to get the taste with HA First and no one can judge that she or he cannot hear with HA all the time."
is what we did with our daughter. There was no benefit.... Of course, we only looked at it for 1 year....
How long would be appropriate???
 
http://www.dartmouth.edu/~lpetitto/langAc.html

No need to have device right away if you mind.

How Children Acquire Language:
A New Answer

How do babies acquire language? What do babies know when they start to speak? Prevailing views about the biological foundations of language assume that very early language acquisition is tied to speech. Universal regularities in the timing and structure of infantsÕ vocal babbling and first words have been taken as evidence that the brain must be attuned to perceiving and producing spoken language, per se, in early life. To be sure, a frequent answer to the question "how does early human language acquisition begin?" is that it is the result of the development of the neuroanatomical and neurophysiological mechanisms involved in the perception and the production of speech. Put another way, the view of human biology at work here is that evolution has rendered the human brain neurologically "hardwired" for speech. Over the past 20 years I have been investigating these issues through intensive studies of hearing babies acquiring spoken languages (English or French) and deaf babies acquiring signed languages (American Sign Language, ASL, or Langue des Signes Québécoise, LSQ), ages birth through 48 months. The most striking finding to emerge from these studies is that speech, per se, is not critical to the human language acquisition process. Irrespective of whether an infant is exposed to spoken or signed languages, both are acquired on an identical maturational time course. Further, hearing infants acquiring spoken languages and deaf infants acquiring signed languages exhibit the same linguistic, semantic, and conceptual complexity, stage for stage. If sound and speech are critical to normal language acquisition how then can we account for these persistent findings? In order for signed and spoken languages to be acquired in the same manner, human infants at birth may not be sensitive to sound or speech, per se. Instead, infants may be sensitive to what is encoded within this modality. I propose that humans are born with a sensitivity to particular distributional, rhythmical, and temporal patterns unique to aspects of natural language structure, along specific physical dimensions (temporal "sing-song" prosodic patterning and bite-sized, maximally-contrasting syllable segments--both levels of language organization that are found in spoken and signed languages). If the input language contains these specific patterns, infants will then attempt to produce them--regardless of whether they encounter these patterns on the hands or on the tongue. One novel implication here is that language modality, be it spoken or signed, is highly plastic and may be neurologically set after birth. Put another way, babies are born with a propensity to acquire language. Whether the language comes as speech, sign language, or some other way of having language, it does not appear to matter to the brain. As long as the language input has the above crucial properties, human babies will attempt to acquire it.

How Children Acquire Language:
A New Answer

Deaf children exposed to signed languages from birth, acquire these languages on an identical maturational time course as hearing children acquire spoken languages. Deaf children acquiring signed languages do so without any modification, loss, or delay to the timing, content, and maturational course associated with reaching all linguistic milestones observed in spoken language. Beginning at birth, and continuing through age 3 and beyond, speaking and signing children exhibit the identical stages of language acquisition. These include the (a) "syllabic babbling stage" (7-10 months) as well as other developments in babbling, including "variegated babbling," ages 10-12 months, and "jargon babbling," ages 12 months and beyond, (b) "first word stage" (11-14 months), (c)"first two-word stage" (16-22 months), and the grammatical and semantic developments beyond. Surprising similarities are also observed in deaf and hearing children's timing onset and use of gestures as well. Signing and speaking children produce strikingly similar pre-linguistic (9-12 months) and post-linguistic communicative gestures (12-48 months). Deaf babies do not produce more gestures, even though linguistic "signs" (identical to the "word") and communicative gestures reside in the same modality, and even though some signs and gestures are formationally and referentially similar. Instead, deaf children consistently differentiate linguistic signs from communicative gestures throughout development, using each in the same ways observed in hearing children. Throughout development, signing and speaking children also exhibit remarkably similar complexity in their utterances.

The Discovery of Manual Babbling

In trying to understand the biological roots of human language, researchers have naturally tried to find its "beginning." The regular onset of vocal babbling--the bababa and other repetitive, syllabic sounds that infants produce--has led researchers to conclude that babbling represents the "beginning" of human language acquisition, albeit, language production. Babbling--and thus early language acquisition in our species--is said to be determined by the development of the anatomy of the vocal tract and the neuroanatomical and neurophysiological mechanisms subserving the motor control of speech production. In the course of conducting research on deaf infants' transition from pre-linguistic gesturing to first signs (9-12 months), I first discovered a class of hand activity that contained linguistically-relevant units that was different from all other hand activity at this time. To my surprise, these deaf infants appeared to be babbling with their hands. Additional studies were undertaken to understand the basis of this extraordinary behavior. The findings that we reported in Science revealed unambiguously a discrete class of hand activity in deaf infants that was structurally identical to vocal babbling observed in hearing infants. Like vocal babbling, manual babbling was found to possess (i) a restricted set of phonetic units (unique to signed languages), (ii) syllabic organization, and it was (iii) used without meaning or reference. This hand activity was also wholly distinct from all infants' rhythmic hand activity, be they deaf or hearing. Even its structure was wholly distinct from all infants' communicative gestures. The discovery of babbling in another modality was exciting. It confirmed the hypothesis that babbling represents a distinct and critical stage in the ontogeny of human language. However, it disconfirmed existing hypotheses about why babbling occurs: It disconfirmed the view that babbling is neurologically determined by the maturation of the speech-production mechanisms, per se. Specifically, it was thought that the "baba," CV (consonant-vowel) alternation that infants produce is determined by the rhythmic opening and closing of the mandible (jaw). But manual babbling is also produced with rhythmic, syllabic (open-close, hold-movement hand) alternations. How can we explain this? Where does this common structure come from? A new series of studies is currently under way to examine the physical basis of this extraordinary phenomenon (see Optotrak studies below, "The Physics of Manual Babbling").

The Physics of Manual Babbling

Where does the common structures in vocal and manual babbling come from? Is manual babbling really different from all babies' other rhythmic hand movements? I have hypothesized that the common structure observed across manual and vocal babbling is due to the existence of "supra-modal constraints," with the rhythmic oscillations of babbling being key. Both manual and vocal babbling, alone, are produced in rhthymic, temporally-oscillating bundles, which I have hypothesized may, in turn, be yoked to constraints on the infant's perceptual systems. The next challenge then was to figure out how to study it. I recently conducted a new study of manual babbling with my colleague at McGill, David Ostry, and students Siobhan Holowka de Belle, Lauren Sergio, and Bronna Levy. We used the powerful "OPTOTRAK Computer Visual-Graphic Analysis System. The precise physical properties of all infants' manual activity were measured by placing tiny Light-Emitting Diodes (LEDs) on infants' hands and feet. The LEDs transmitted light impulses to cameras that, in turn, sent signals into the OPTOTRAK system. This information was then fed into the computer software that we designed to provide us with information analogous to the spectrographic representation of speech, but adapted here for the spectrographic representation of sign. Thus, for the first time, we were able to obtain recordings of the timing, rate, path movement, velocity, and "fo" for all infant hand activity, and to obtain sophisticated, 3-D graphic displays of each. This work is presently in press in Nature (2001).

Bilingualism and Early Brain Development

I. Bi-lingual hearing babies acquiring a signed and a spoken language from birth, and bi-lingual hearing babies acquiring two different signed languages from birth (and no speech): Presently, an additional test of the hypothesis that speech is critical to the acquisition process is under investigation in my laboratory, testing two critical populations: (1) "bi-lingual" hearing infants who are being exposed to signed and spoken languages (i.e., one parent signs, one parent speaks), and (2) "bi-lingual" hearing infants who are being exposed to two distinct signed languages (ASL and LSQ), but who are receiving no spoken language input whatsoever. With regard to group (1), bi-lingual, signing/speaking children achieve all linguistic milestones in both modalities at the same time (e.g., vocal and manual babbling, first words and first signs, first grammatical combinations of words and signs, respectively, and beyond; see Petitto et al., in press, Journal of Child Language). Further, infants in both groups (1) and (2) exhibit their linguistic and semantic-conceptual milestones on the identical overall maturational time course as seen in monolingual children (Petitto, 2000), with their specific developmental patterns being identical to that which has been observed in the typical case of bi-lingual hearing babies exposed to two spoken languages (e.g., spoken French and spoken English; more below).

II. Discovery of common timing in bi-lingual and mono-lingual children: In the course of conducting the above research on the maturational timing mechanisms in hearing babies acquiring signed & spoken languages from their bilingual parents, we discovered that our young hearing controls--bilingual children learning spoken French and English--were achieving all major linguistic milestones in each of their respective languages on the identical time course, and on the identical time course as monolinguals (Petitto, 1994, 1997). Significance: Prevailing research on very young bilinguals, however, had reported that bilingual babies under 20 months exhibted language delay and confusion relative to monolingual babies because they ostensibly had a single, fused representation of their two native languages, which they were only able to sort out over the first three years of life. By contrast, my findings suggested that very young bilingual babies have highly distinct representations of their two native languages quite probably from birth. I have further advanced an hypothesis stating what mechanisms in the human brain may enable the very young baby to differentiate between its two native languages from birth, and I have offered the field an explanation as to why the perception of "delay" and "confusion" in young bilinguals has prevailed, both among scientists and the public (see Petitto et al., 2001, Journal of Child Language).

Give Deaf children a chance to be themselves as is. NO need to pressure on those kids to wear devices all the time. Period!

If your Deaf Children cannot hear at all then you live with it .. Thats the reason for it. You need to change your own attitude and learn how to adapt with a Deaf child. That 's not hard to do. Period!
 
Sweetmind said:
http://www.dartmouth.edu/~lpetitto/langAc.html

No need to have device right away if you mind.

Give Deaf children a chance to be themselves as is. NO need to pressure on those kids to wear devices all the time. Period!

If you Deaf Children cannot hear at all then live with it .. Thats the reason for it. You need to change your own attitude and learn how to adapt with a Deaf child. That 's not hard to do. Period!
If you want to raise a child that cannot hear, there's no rush. If you want your child to hear, a HA should be fitted ASAP in order to start the hearing proces. Close observation will tell if the child benefits from it. If not, and you do not want an operation for your child, fine. If you do want your child to hear, CI is the next step.... and in that case....
Word recognition.jpg
More info..
 
You should NOT make the decision for them about CI device because it s not life threatening. So be it! I EDITed it because I forgot to put *NOT*
 
Sweetmind said:
You should NOT make the decision for them about CI device because it s not life threatening. So be it! I EDITed it because I forgot to put *NOT*

Parents have every right to make decisions for their children period. No one can take that right away from parents.

You have to focus on teaching them the importance of bi-lingualism rather than attacking them. Attacking them wont teach them anything but rather push them away.

Be powerful with knowledge and kindness.
 
CyberRed said:
It's interestin' to know that you and I are different people how we both see things. I am sorry that I don't accept CI implant on a small child. I don't mind if, it should wait until she/he gets older to make his/her own decision if, she/he wants it. I would prefer a deaf child to get to know himself/herself through sign language. Their first language before any other 2nd language.
She can... You think a child cannot learn two languages at the time??
My 2 hearing children learned Norwegian and Dutch at the same time. My deaf daughter learned sign, and now sign, dutch and norwegian....

I think you have a low opinion about the thing children can do - as long as you give them opportunities...


I agree with you "It's interestin' to know that you and I are different people how we both see things."
 
Gemtun said:
Parents have every right to make decisions for their children period. No one can take that right away from parents.

You have to focus on teaching them the importance of bi-lingualism rather than attacking them. Attacking them wont teach them anything but rather push them away.

Be powerful with knowledge and kindness.
:gpost:
 
Actually Deaf child is not bothering me so bad because we can communicate with our hands like Martha 's Vineyard. You can do it that I dont have any doubts.

I dont see why it s necessary to force a child to hear and speak only that you want for yourself. So be it! Deaf children can do anything except hear. You wont face the truth that we Deaf children have their abilities without devices if you allow them

It is no law for Deaf children "must" hear that you couldnt live or handle a Deaf child. Wow! How weak!

I would leave my Deaf child alone. I said Deaf children will not hear everything why would I bother to poking their ears with all money for deafness that goes to MEDICAL. Deaf child is not sicker or puppet/ guinea pig as experiment on Deaf child that I dont agree with.. So be it!

I just posted "How Children Acquire Language" : that it helps you to deal with your Deaf child that doesnt cost you a lot of money. It s a real language from their beginning of life that doesnt damage on Deaf children..
No excuses for you to twisting around all the time.

Acceptance is Key! ;)
 
Cloggy

SM said this;
I dont see why it s necessary to force a child to hear and speak only that you want for yourself. So be it! Deaf children can do anything except hear. You wont face the truth that we Deaf children have their abilities without devices if you allow them

I believe you want "Deaf children can do anything AND hear." so "except" is a barrier which is eliminated!

ET AL.,
how hard is that to understand that Cloggy wanted barrier removed from her daughter!
 
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