Hearies view on a CI kid... its a bummer

[LTHFAdvocate]

Once again, you are confusing 2 issues. Oralism and implantation.
Perhaps the door was slammed in your face because you approached sign as "back-up communication."

Is a backup not what you go to when the primary mode has failed? For a child who had adequate hearing to develop normal speech and language who was suddenly losing that hearing at a rapid rate, who had no previous exposure to sign, what WOULD you call it?

My son had residual aided hearing; the deaf school accpeted his enrollment gladly, as it did the CI users who also used sign.

Lucky you. Mine wouldn't return my calls, and when I did finally get someone in admissions they asked me why I would want to bother teaching my daughter sign?

However, research has shown, and continues to show,that as a group, the highest achievers academically are those deaf children with CI that are exposed to both sign and speech on a consistent basis.

John Niparko from Johns Hopkins has done extensive research and presentations concluding that sign in general and the TC modality in particular actually slows down language development in early-implanted children. He presented his initial findings in Vienna in June 2006, then updates in Charlotte in April 2007 and his full study has just been published in the August edition of Otology/Neurotology. This was a HUGE study, multiple centers, multiple phases, and almost 200 participants.

Assessing the Use of Speech and Language Measures ...[Otol Neurotol. 2007] - PubMed Result

 

[LTHFAdvocate]

Crappy mainstream programs and lack of school support are not a valid excuse. The qualifications and credentialing requirements under NCLB and IDEA 2004 could not be clearer, and assessment requirements hardly changed at all in the last round of federal updates to special education laws. If the parents think there child is not receiving FAPE, they should be taking their district to due process rather than whining about the inadequacies of the program they are in.

For the record, I was a software development manager before my daughter started losing her hearing. The last 12 years of my life, including law school, have been about advocating for her and children like her. Nothing changes until people decide to change it.

Unfortunately, deaf ed, at least in States, as that is my experience, has been convoluted and distorted to the point that many programs claim to adhere to a specific philosphy, but it practice, do not. Right now, particularly inthe mainstream, kids get a hodge podge. The push for inclusion and mainstreaming without insuring that first there are qualified educators to address those students who are coming into the classrooms adds further complication. Add to that social attitudes and parental attitudes and you have the mess we are dealing with currently.

 

[shel90]

Is a backup not what you go to when the primary mode has failed? For a child who had adequate hearing to develop normal speech and language who was suddenly losing that hearing at a rapid rate, who had no previous exposure to sign, what WOULD you call it?



Lucky you. Mine wouldn't return my calls, and when I did finally get someone in admissions they asked me why I would want to bother teaching my daughter sign?




John Niparko from Johns Hopkins has done extensive research and presentations concluding that sign in general and the TC modality in particular actually slows down language development in early-implanted children. He presented his initial findings in Vienna in June 2006, then updates in Charlotte in April 2007 and his full study has just been published in the August edition of Otology/Neurotology. This was a HUGE study, multiple centers, multiple phases, and almost 200 participants.

Assessing the Use of Speech and Language Measures ...[Otol Neurotol. 2007] - PubMed Result

John Hopkins has always frowned on exposing signing to implanted children so I wonder if that study is biased?

My work has struggled with John Hopkin's attidude against ASL and we have been trying to set up a collaboration with them with no success so far. I dont have much trust in John Hopkins due to this issue. Their philosophy seems to have a strong medicalized view of deafness. I wish I can disclose more situation and comments we got from them regarding Deaf culture and ASL but I dont want to reveal too much but let's say the kind of comments were an insult to the Deaf community.

However, there is a difference between the TC and BiBi approaches. They are not the same. We are advocating the use of the BiBi approach in all deaf programs.

 

[LTHFAdvocate]

I haven't dealt with JHs implant program (except for the odd appeal) so I can't say anything about bias one way or the other. However, I would point out that it is a multi-center study including the University of Miami, House Ear Institute, and the University of Texas-Dallas just to name a few.

I would suggest you actually read the paper, the data is quite compelling.

I would like to have a better understanding of the differences between TC and BiBi. Shel, you seem quite reasonable and levelheaded, so perhaps you wouldn't mind giving me a short tutorial? I am somewhat confused as the first article I landed on in Google when I typed "bibi tc differences deaf" contained the following quote:

"The bi-bi movement is really a return to the original essence of TC. "

But just because that's what shows up on the google index first doesn't mean its right. Can you point me to some web sites?

Sheri

John Hopkins has always frowned on exposing signing to implanted children so I wonder if that study is biased?

My work has struggled with John Hopkin's attidude against ASL and we have been trying to set up a collaboration with them with no success so far. I dont have much trust in John Hopkins due to this issue. Their philosophy seems to have a strong medicalized view of deafness. I wish I can disclose more situation and comments we got from them regarding Deaf culture and ASL but I dont want to reveal too much but let's say the kind of comments were an insult to the Deaf community.

However, there is a difference between the TC and BiBi approaches. They are not the same. We are advocating the use of the BiBi approach in all deaf programs.

 

[shel90]

I haven't dealt with JHs implant program (except for the odd appeal) so I can't say anything about bias one way or the other. However, I would point out that it is a multi-center study including the University of Miami, House Ear Institute, and the University of Texas-Dallas just to name a few.

I would suggest you actually read the paper, the data is quite compelling.

I would like to have a better understanding of the differences between TC and BiBi. Shel, you seem quite reasonable and levelheaded, so perhaps you wouldn't mind giving me a short tutorial? I am somewhat confused as the first article I landed on in Google when I typed "bibi tc differences deaf" contained the following quote:

"The bi-bi movement is really a return to the original essence of TC. "

But just because that's what shows up on the google index first doesn't mean its right. Can you point me to some web sites?

Sheri

TC uses whatever communicaion tools that works for each child but the problem is in a TC program u will see ASL, SEE, Sim-Com, oral, or even Cued being used and it is just too much for many of the children. Usually Sim-Com is used the most from what I have seen of TC programs.

BiBi uses two languages...ASL and English and uses them separately. ASL thru the air and English for reading and writing but recently oral language has been added to meet the needs of those who benefit from auditory input. Even with that, ASL and English are never used together whether in signed, spoken, or written forms.

My computer is working very slow right now so it will take some time for me to search some websites...

 

[shel90]

Sheri...here is one website I found

Canadian Cultural Society of the Deaf - BILINGUAL BICULTURAL DEAF EDUCATION

Also, the bi-bi approach meets deaf children's needs and includes Deaf history and culture in the curriculm.

 

[Audiofuzzy]

I think you don't even know your own post, You need to stop taking ur writing statement out of context, and stop twisting other people's words around.

On the contrary - the continous explanations and straightening what Angel, you, and Liebling managed to confuse make me know my post even if I woke up suddenly from deep sleep.

Look at your own post again
Quote:
Audiofuzzy

Cheri said she love/d her father the way he was, then she said she would felt even closer to him if he signed to her.
I thought about it, and what Cheri wrote about her father being loving and supportive - stood out to me. isn't THAT more important than ability to sign but being an awful father?

That only proves you don't understand my post.
I didn't said YOUR FATHER WAS AWFUL, I asked what if .
The remark you put in bold letter is about HYPOTHETICAL situation, not about your real father, Cheri.

isn't THAT more important - to be loving, supportive father?

yes or no ?

If I wish my father continuing using signs I have that right to feel this way, It has nothing to do with him being a loving and supportive father.

Absolutely. I understand you would like to have your father signing. It would be better, yes - but he didn't.
I understand it has nothing to do with HIM being loving and supportive.
That's WHY I asked:


"would you rather have a good, loving, NON signing father? or a bad one signing?".
Well. who'd you preffer? The father you had?
or the potentially bad ASL father you COULD have had?

A simple answer - "I would preffer to have... father" is enough.


Fuzzy

 

[Angel]

"would you rather have a good, loving, NON signing father? or a bad one signing?".

Fuzzy

What? this doesn't make any sense...


Cheri said she HAS a good and lovely father, but only wish he would sign, so they could have better communication with each others and grow closer , why is that so hard for you to understand that?

A simple answer - "I would preffer to have... father" is enough.

What is so wrong of wishing her parents to sign? What do you have against sign language? Why you keep saying these hearing parents does not have to learn sign language for their deaf children?

 

[jillio]

Crappy mainstream programs and lack of school support are not a valid excuse. The qualifications and credentialing requirements under NCLB and IDEA 2004 could not be clearer, and assessment requirements hardly changed at all in the last round of federal updates to special education laws. If the parents think there child is not receiving FAPE, they should be taking their district to due process rather than whining about the inadequacies of the program they are in.

For the record, I was a software development manager before my daughter started losing her hearing. The last 12 years of my life, including law school, have been about advocating for her and children like her. Nothing changes until people decide to change it.

Do you know how many states are out of compliance with IDEA? And the ADA?

Nor was crappy mainstream programs and school support an excuse......I was asked for an explanation, and I gave one. Further, it is reality.

What parents should be doing, and what parents do are two different things. Where do you think parents get their inforamtion regarding a child's rights under IDEA and the ADA. They get their information from the school system. If a school system is out of compliance, do you think they are going to inform a parent that their child is entitled to any thing other than what they offer? There have been any number of posts on this forum alone recently of illegal actions from school systems. They happen. On an everyday basis.

I. as well, advocate for college students, and prior to that advocated for my own son, taking 2 school districts to due process, winning both cases without the asssistance of an attorney. However, it has been my experience that not all parents are willing to go to those lengths, and it is the chidlren who are falling through the cracks. Not an excuse, either, but again, a bit of unplesant reality.

 

[jillio]

TC uses whatever communicaion tools that works for each child but the problem is in a TC program u will see ASL, SEE, Sim-Com, oral, or even Cued being used and it is just too much for many of the children. Usually Sim-Com is used the most from what I have seen of TC programs.

BiBi uses two languages...ASL and English and uses them separately. ASL thru the air and English for reading and writing but recently oral language has been added to meet the needs of those who benefit from auditory input. Even with that, ASL and English are never used together whether in signed, spoken, or written forms.

My computer is working very slow right now so it will take some time for me to search some websites...

Exactly. TC in theory works....TC in practice is relatively rare. And, the use of multiple systems provides a confusing linguistic environment. That is exactly why I support a Bi-Bi atmosphere. And regarding the 2006 research that saying that sign and speech together actually reduced the achievement of early implanted kids.........Marshark reviewed four separate research studies and found that in all, the highest achieving students were those who used sign and speech together. The oral only kids had better spoken language skills, but for overall academic achievement, the sign plus speech group compared at a closer rate to hearing peers than any other group.

 

[Cloggy]

That is, if one interprets the words in that particular book literally, which is a very dangerous thing. That volume is written in metaphor. And I think the discussion started over someone's claim that deafness was God's will.

And, the oralists thought they were following God's will, so that deaf people would be forced to speak in order to "confess" their sins and be saved fromthe damnation of hell. And we all know how much damage the oral philosophy has done to individuals within the deaf community.

I agree.... religion has created enormous damage... still does.!!

 

[Cloggy]

...........
I. as well, advocate for college students, and prior to that advocated for my own son, taking 2 school districts to due process, winning both cases without the asssistance of an attorney. However, it has been my experience that not all parents are willing to go to those lengths, and it is the chidlren who are falling through the cracks. Not an excuse, either, but again, a bit of unplesant reality.

Good for you,
However, not all parents have the financial capacity, or the intellectual capacity to do that. It might not have anything to do with being "willing"

You should not assume that everyone is like you. That they have the same startingpoint.
You were able to do that, finacially and intellectually, and saw the difference it makes.
I hope you are using that experience to help less fortunate people to do the same. They might not be able to do it by themselves...

 

[R2D2]

TC uses whatever communicaion tools that works for each child but the problem is in a TC program u will see ASL, SEE, Sim-Com, oral, or even Cued being used and it is just too much for many of the children. Usually Sim-Com is used the most from what I have seen of TC programs.

BiBi uses two languages...ASL and English and uses them separately. ASL thru the air and English for reading and writing but recently oral language has been added to meet the needs of those who benefit from auditory input. Even with that, ASL and English are never used together whether in signed, spoken, or written forms.

How does that work in practice? I mean, if the class was doing a book together then how is ASL kept separate from written English? How would the teacher ask the class "So what do people think of Jane Eyre's character?" and for them all to have class discussion on it? Or do they read the book only in English and then switch to ASL for the discussion?

 

[Audiofuzzy]

Originally Posted by Audiofuzzy

"would you rather have a good, loving, NON signing father? or a bad one signing?".

Fuzzy

What? this doesn't make any sense...

It does. It's a simple question: would you...(this)..., or would you ...(this)...?

Cheri said she HAS a good and lovely father, but only wish he would sign, so they could have better communication with each others and grow closer , why is that so hard for you to understand that?

Nothing. I understand it - she has a loving father but whom she wish would also sign, so they can have closer relationship. It's no brainer.

What is so wrong of wishing her parents to sign? What do you have against sign language?

Nothing. Where did I say it is? I never said that.
I have nothing against sign language. Where did I said I have? Nowhere.

Why you keep saying these hearing parents does not have to learn sign language for their deaf children?

because they don't HAVE TO. They can be nice and learn it, but they DON'T HAVE TO TO BE A GOOD PARENT.

So, can I have my answer now, please ?

All I want is a simple answer to:- "would you preffer to have a good, loving, NON signing father? or a bad one but signing?"

this is not a hard question...
(but I know why you refuse to answer it)

Fuzzy

 

[Liebling:-)))]

What? this doesn't make any sense...

Yes I know.

Cheri said she HAS a good and lovely father, but only wish he would sign, so they could have better communication with each others and grow closer , why is that so hard for you to understand that?

Yes, I know that feeling... Many deaf people including us have the kind of feeling ... It's natural feeling to wish the parents could sign...

 

[Liebling:-)))]

this is not a hard question...
(but I know why you refuse to answer it)

Fuzzy

*scratch my head* I am surprised that you can't see a philosophical logic... It has nothing do with refuse to answer since Cheri already shared her feeling is a natural like anyone which is good enough. Cheri's philosophical logic in real life situation is not match your hypothetical question.

 

[Cloggy]

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Nothing. Where did I say it is? I never said that.
I have nothing against sign language. Where did I said I have? Nowhere.

because they don't HAVE TO. They can be nice and learn it, but they DON'T HAVE TO TO BE A GOOD PARENT.

I am afraid yes...it seem to me that communiate with sign language is not important to you... You said that they don't have to sign is a negative and misleading...

I feel that it's important for the parents to sign to their deaf children... Its about bond relationship and easy communicate, the children will feel comfortable and positive their self-esteem/self-confidence.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Sorry cloggy, I can't see the picture... I only see box with red cross.. I have to wait until I am home from work.

 

[shel90]

How does that work in practice? I mean, if the class was doing a book together then how is ASL kept separate from written English? How would the teacher ask the class "So what do people think of Jane Eyre's character?" and for them all to have class discussion on it? Or do they read the book only in English and then switch to ASL for the discussion?

If the students read the book to themselves, they just read it like hearing children do ...some silently, some out loud meaning if the deaf student reads it out loud, they sign it word for word ...but that is to themselves and then when everyone is done reading, I lead the discussion of what they read using ASL.

However, if I want to test their reading comprehension, I have the student read out loud to me (signing word for word) and then after the student is done, I have the student retell the phrase or story in their own words using ASL.

Like, for example, yesterday there was a phrase "get up" in the story that they read. They signed "get" "up" and then I ask them if that makes sense and then discuss what do they think it means. Then I show them the appropriate ASL sign (concept) for that phrase. Yes, it is hard work but for the first time in 5 years, I have a class who dont have language delay issues so it is so much easier to do these different reading strategies with them. When the child is language delayed, I have to do a lot of role playing, modeling or acting out of the phrases and it consumes so much time during the lesson. That is why I wish all deaf kids were exposed to ASL from the beginning. It MAKES a difference and my class this year proved it big time.

With those who get benefit from auditory input, they are divided into groups with another teacher using the same lesson but in spoken language. However ALL new concepts are introduced using ASL to all children because it is apparent that the concepts are much clearer in ASL than in spoken English for most of the students. Once the concept has been introduced and understood by those with CIs or Hoh, then spoken language can be used. No signing is used when spoken language is being used since both languages must be kept separate.