Health care proposal mandates coverage, drops public option

Status
Not open for further replies.
Not really, you changed your posts a quite alot. It confused us.

I can see that you have no good patience. From now I will not ask you in the future. If I want to ask then google myself, ask ADers or ask my co-workers... :) They have no problem to answer my questions. You made different posts over healthcare in several threads a quite a lot. This is a confusion.

Don´t worry, I read Americans´ first hand experience comments a lot and know a lot about US healthcare system thru their comments, TV, factcheck, politifact, snope.com and a few reliable medias.

I only want to try to understand why because I have a hard time to understand why Americans said nothing about Bush spend trillions on war and whines that Bush do nothing for his people and country. They act immaturity childish and accuse Obama as facist, Nazi, Hitler, Socialist, and go on.... without realize how work hard Obama is for his people and America. I convince what Obama said in his speech last week but cannot understand why Obama´s speech doesn´t convince Americans.. It look like that they don´t understand.



See above, that´s why I have a hard time to understand why Americans oppose Obama´s healthcare plan because its about protect your life.

How do you know?

Thank you for remind me. Yes, you will get my answer tomorrow... It´s time for me to go bed now.

I changed my posts a lot? I don't understand. Are you sure you're not confusing me with you? My concern is exactly SAME as my original position... whereas yours changes all the time aka "flip flopper"

As I said MANY TIMES - I do not support mandatory coverage and public option. See this post by a Canadian ADer to refresh your memory. It's well-said.
 
I changed my posts a lot? I don't understand. Are you sure you're not confusing me with you? My concern is exactly SAME as my original position... whereas yours changes all the time aka "flip flopper"

As I said MANY TIMES - I do not support mandatory coverage and public option. See this post by a Canadian ADer to refresh your memory. It's well-said.

Canadian is AD newbie since July 2009. He didn´t know your posts since last year but I do. :)
 
Canadian is AD newbie since July 2009. He didn´t know your posts since last year but I do. :)

I have been reading the forum since 2005... Just never registered until I went off the deep-end. ;)

I have to say, the only way the Americans will accept universal health-care across the nation if it is regulated by the individual state. If there's a provision saying that "every state must provide these" with no say in how the individual states will run the health-care system-- it probably won't get so many heavy resistance from their own citizens.
 
Canadian is AD newbie since July 2009. He didn´t know your posts since last year but I do. :)

so? Souggy's membership status is irrelevant. he knows what he's talking about. I know what I'm talking about. but you don't understand the American concept. You only think what works for Germany will work for America. That's a :nono:

Like I said in other post - I don't expect you to understand the American way. Of course - there are some who shares your enthusiasm about Obama's health care reform but most aren't.

What do you think why they've been having hard time passing it for past 20 years? Please take off mandatory coverage & public option and we're good :)
 
Sick and Wrong
Let's start with the obvious: America has not only the worst but the dumbest health care system in the developed world. It's become a black leprosy eating away at the American experiment — a bureaucracy so insipid and mean and illogical that even our darkest criminal minds wouldn't be equal to dreaming it up on purpose.

The system doesn't work for anyone. It cheats patients and leaves them to die, denies insurance to 47 million Americans, forces hospitals to spend billions haggling over claims, and systematically bleeds and harasses doctors with the specter of catastrophic litigation. Even as a mechanism for delivering bonuses to insurance-company fat cats, it's a miserable failure: Greedy insurance bosses who spent a generation denying preventive care to patients now see their profits sapped by millions of customers who enter the system only when they're sick with incurably expensive illnesses.

The cost of all of this to society, in illness and death and lost productivity and a soaring federal deficit and plain old anxiety and anger, is incalculable — and that's the good news. The bad news is our failed health care system won't get fixed, because it exists entirely within the confines of yet another failed system: the political entity known as the United States of America.

Just as we have a medical system that is not really designed to care for the sick, we have a government that is not equipped to fix actual crises. What our government is good at is something else entirely: effecting the appearance of action, while leaving the actual reform behind in a diabolical labyrinth of ingenious legislative maneuvers.

Over the course of this summer, those two failed systems have collided in a spectacular crossroads moment in American history. We have an urgent national emergency on the one hand, and on the other, a comfortable majority of ostensibly simpatico Democrats who were elected by an angry population, in large part, specifically to reform health care. When they all sat down in Washington to tackle the problem, it amounted to a referendum on whether or not we actually have a functioning government.

It's a situation that one would have thought would be sobering enough to snap Congress into real action for once. Instead, they did the exact opposite, doubling down on the same-old, same-old and laboring day and night in the halls of the Capitol to deliver us a tour de force of old thinking and legislative trickery, as if that's what we really wanted. Almost every single one of the main players — from House Speaker Nancy Pelosi to Blue Dog turncoat Max Baucus — found some unforeseeable, unique-to-them way to fuck this thing up. Even Ted Kennedy, for whom successful health care reform was to be the great vindicating achievement of his career, and Barack Obama, whose entire presidency will likely be judged by this bill, managed to come up small when the lights came on.

We might look back on this summer someday and think of it as the moment when our government lost us for good. It was that bad.

Here's where we are right now: Before Congress recessed in August, four of the five committees working to reform health care had produced draft bills. On the House side, bills were developed by the commerce, ways and means, and labor committees. On the Senate side, a bill was completed by the HELP committee (Health, Education, Labor and Pensions, chaired by Ted Kennedy). The only committee that didn't finish a bill is the one that's likely to matter most: the Senate Finance Committee, chaired by the infamous obfuscating dick Max Baucus, a right-leaning Democrat from Montana who has received $2,880,631 in campaign contributions from the health care industry.

The game in health care reform has mostly come down to whether or not the final bill that is hammered out from the work of these five committees will contain a public option — i.e., an option for citizens to buy in to a government-run health care plan. Because the plan wouldn't have any profit motive — and wouldn't have to waste money on executive bonuses and corporate marketing — it would automatically cost less than private insurance. Once such a public plan is on the market, it would also drive down prices offered by for-profit insurers — a move essential to offset the added cost of covering millions of uninsured Americans. Without a public option, any effort at health care reform will be as meaningful as a manicure for a gunshot victim. "The public option is the main thing on the table," says Michael Behan, an aide to Sen. Bernie Sanders of Vermont. "It's really coming down to that."

The House versions all contain a public option, as does the HELP committee's version in the Senate. So whether or not there will be a public option in the end will likely come down to Baucus, one of the biggest whores for insurance-company money in the history of the United States. The early indications are that there is no public option in the Baucus version; the chairman hinted he favors the creation of nonprofit insurance cooperatives, a lame-ass alternative that even a total hack like Sen. Chuck Schumer has called a "fig leaf."

Even worse, Baucus has set things up so that the final Senate bill will be drawn up by six senators from his committee: a gang of three Republicans (Chuck Grassley of Iowa, Olympia Snowe of Maine, Mike Enzi of Wyoming) and three Democrats (Baucus, Kent Conrad of North Dakota, Jeff Bingaman of New Mexico) known by the weirdly Maoist sobriquet "Group of Six." The setup senselessly submarines the committee's Democratic majority, effectively preventing members who advocate a public option, like Jay Rockefeller of West Virginia and Robert Menendez of New Jersey, from seriously influencing the bill. Getting movement on a public option — or any other meaningful reform — will now require the support of one of the three Republicans in the group: Grassley (who has received $2,034,000 from the health sector), Snowe ($756,000) or Enzi ($627,000).

This is what the prospects for real health care reform come down to — whether one of three Republicans from tiny states with no major urban populations decides, out of the goodness of his or her cash-fattened heart, to forsake forever any contributions from the health-insurance industry (and, probably, aid for their re-election efforts from the Republican National Committee).

This, of course, is the hugest of long shots. But just to hedge its bets even further and ensure that no real reforms pass, Congress has made sure to cover itself, sabotaging the bill long before it even got to Baucus' committee. To do this, they used a five-step system of subtle feints and legislative tricks to gut the measure until there was nothing left.

his post is very long so click on the link above to read his complete post.
 
so? Souggy's membership status is irrelevant. he knows what he's talking about. I know what I'm talking about. but you don't understand the American concept. You only think what works for Germany will work for America. That's a :nono:

Like I said in other post - I don't expect you to understand the American way. Of course - there are some who shares your enthusiasm about Obama's health care reform but most aren't.

What do you think why they've been having hard time passing it for past 20 years? Please take off mandatory coverage & public option and we're good :)

All what I see is ADers rebutted your posts over healthcare issues. :) They are not alone who see their own first hand experience like what I read many American comments.

Canadian ADer entitled to his opinion. I respect him when I disagree with him.

He support protesters (including Teabags), that oppose Obama and I support Americans who want healthcare coverage badly. We entitled to our opinion on healthcare issue differently.
 
I convince what Obama said in his speech last week but cannot understand why Obama´s speech doesn´t convince Americans.. It look like that they don´t understand.
I fully understand the points he's making. I would get behind this in a second if we lived in a world where it's possible. Unfortunately, we do not. Here's what he says it will do.

1. Cover millions of Americans.
2. Not raise deficits one dime.
3. Not require taxes to be raised on anyone except the top 5%.
4. Lower health care costs.
5. Not reduce quality.
6. Not lengthen wait times.
7. Not rely on rationing.

It's an impossible balancing act. There's no evidence or experience that indicates the government can pull it off. You can't increase demand for health care while not increasing supply and expect costs to do anything but go up. You can't place a web of bureaucracies on top of an already complex system and expect efficiency to increase. You can only milk so much money out of the rich. Something has to give.
 
All what I see is ADers rebutted your posts over healthcare issues. :) They are not alone who see their own first hand experience like what I read many American comments.

Canadian ADer entitled to his opinion. I respect him when I disagree with him.

He support protesters (including Teabags), that oppose Obama and I support Americans who want healthcare coverage badly. We entitled to our opinion on healthcare issue differently.

I have first-hand experiences as well and I am American too. but you only listen to those whose opinions match with yours and then ignore others. That's the problem.
 
I have first-hand experiences as well and I am American too. but you only listen to those whose opinions match with yours and then ignore others. That's the problem.

Simple answer:

Huh? Should I against Americans who are happy with their healthcare insurance? No, I respect them what they beleive in.

I support Americans who have bad experience and unhappy with their health insurarnce coverage and cannot afford to have insurance coverage.

Get difference?

At first I support your bad experience to deal with doctor in other thread last year over $400 and then next thread you brag that you have no problem and said how wonderful healthcare is... pay only $50 and next thread you insult Americans as lazy, etc. for not have healthcare coverage.

Then next thread, you said at Kokonut´s UK premature baby thread that you have no problem... Of course you have no problem because you and your family have money but poor million Americans doesn´t have.



 
Canadian ADer entitled to his opinion. I respect him when I disagree with him.

He support protesters (including Teabags), that oppose Obama and I support Americans who want healthcare coverage badly.

Don't put me in the same category as the Obama dissent crowd.

We entitled to our opinion on healthcare issue differently.

You ever noticed that every single country that have universal health-care in place say that their model is not for the Americans since theirs doesn't reflect the American values? They all say that universal health-care is needed in America, but they all also say that their model won't work in the States either. Mandatory insurance is not the American way.

If they want universal health-care, they need to figure out how to Americanize the thing rather than forcing it down the throats from the federal level and downward. I do believe universal health-care is possible in the United States-- however the current reform doesn't reflect what the Americans stand for.

Hell, the only reason why our own healthcare was finally adopted was because the provincial governments have more control over their own affairs, in almost everything, than the federal government themselves; the federal government conceded that control to the provincial governments. So while we are based on the British system, how it is being governed is completely different. So no two healthcare systems are the same.
 
Simple answer:

Huh? Should I against Americans who are happy with their healthcare insurance? No, I respect them what they beleive in.

I support Americans who have bad experience and unhappy with their health insurarnce coverage and cannot afford to have insurance coverage.

Get difference?
not really. same thing to me. you do not respect our positions against Obama's health care reform. You think we're stupid not to embrace it.

At first I support your bad experience to deal with doctor in other thread last year over $400 and then next thread you brag that you have no problem and said how wonderful healthcare is... pay only $50 and next thread you insult Americans as lazy, etc. for not have healthcare coverage.
I'm sorry but what? insulting Americans as lazy for not having healthcare coverage? exactly where did I say that?

My bad experience with one doctor is not the same as my experience with rest of doctors. some are greedy (rub money with their fingers) and some are not.

Then next thread, you said at Kokonut´s UK premature baby thread that you have no problem... Of course you have no problem because you and your family have money but poor million Americans doesn´t have.
so? there are poor people in any countries. it's called reality. Do you have poor people in Germany too?
 
I fully understand the points he's making. I would get behind this in a second if we lived in a world where it's possible. Unfortunately, we do not. Here's what he says it will do.

1. Cover millions of Americans.
2. Not raise deficits one dime.
3. Not require taxes to be raised on anyone except the top 5%.
4. Lower health care costs.
5. Not reduce quality.
6. Not lengthen wait times.
7. Not rely on rationing.

It's an impossible balancing act. There's no evidence or experience that indicates the government can pull it off. You can't increase demand for health care while not increasing supply and expect costs to do anything but go up. You can't place a web of bureaucracies on top of an already complex system and expect efficiency to increase. You can only milk so much money out of the rich. Something has to give.

Yes I understand your point.

Like what I said other thread that I personally disagree with Obama for not increase few % tax on middle class people if Obama´s healthcare reform pass.

I think it´s too much if you work to pay taxes on Medicare, Medicaid and Tricare for someone else, not yourself and then new Obama´s healthcare for everyone.

My opinion is: Remove Medicare, Medicaid, Tricare, etc into one healthcare for everyone OR Medicare for everyone, to forget Obama´s healthcare reform.

Obama´s speech for healthcare plan sound similar as German manatary health insurance we have here in Germany. We don´t have any waiting list here in Germany. All what I know waiting list is in UK and Canada, that´s all but they still positive their healthcare system because they don´t lost their home to medical bill.
 
Yes I understand your point.

Like what I said other thread that I personally disagree with Obama for not increase few % tax on middle class people if Obama´s healthcare reform pass.

I think it´s too much if you work to pay taxes on Medicare, Medicaid and Tricare for someone else, not yourself and then new Obama´s healthcare for everyone.

My opinion is: Remove Medicare, Medicaid, Tricare, etc into one healthcare for everyone OR Medicare for everyone, to forget Obama´s healthcare reform.

Obama´s speech for healthcare plan sound similar as German manatary health insurance we have here in Germany. We don´t have any waiting list here in Germany. All what I know waiting list is in UK and Canada, that´s all but they still positive their healthcare system because they don´t lost their home to medical bill.

1. Please for the love of god... you need to get this out of your head - majority of people are NOT losing their homes to medical bill. No wonder you keep thinking Obama's reform is the only solution :roll:

2. You don't have waiting list because you do not have the size and population of America. Plus - you do not have millions of illegal immigrants to deal with. We're paying for it, you know that?

3. increasing the tax is not a solution. You can increase all the tax you want but the problem will be same. We are not made of money. We do not make big money for a long time. Believe me - if you live here long enough, you will understand our problem :)
 
not really. same thing to me. you do not respect our positions against Obama's health care reform. You think we're stupid not to embrace it.

You don´t understand the difference between disagree and respect. It doesn´t mean that I disrespect you because I disagree with your opinion over Obama´s healthcare.

I don´t respect those stupid and immature people who scream and call nasty names... Example Healthcare Town Hall... and protesters in DC... *shake my head* If they want to disagree with Obama then act adult and tell them why they disagree, instead of attack other country´s healthcare and call Nazi, facist, racist, maxisum, socialist, etc...

You said yourself last year that you are anti-socialist.


I'm sorry but what? insulting Americans as lazy for not having healthcare coverage? exactly where did I say that?

Yes you have.

My bad experience with one doctor is not the same as my experience with rest of doctors. some are greedy (rub money with their fingers) and some are not.

Of course I know. I only remind you that I support you and your bad experience because you wrongly accuse me that I ignored your bad experience which I don´t.

so? there are poor people in any countries. it's called reality. Do you have poor people in Germany too?

Of course yes, but they (unemployed and low income) people still get healthcare and keep their home under social assistance system. It´s good that they get protect is health and home.

Anyway, don´t twist my post. It´s middle class people who can´t afford healthcare coverage, I am referring to, not low middle class people. Don´t you know what "poor" is? I mean poor is feel sorry or feel bad for people who can´t afford healthcare coverage.





 
You don´t understand the difference between disagree and respect. It doesn´t mean that I disrespect you because I disagree with your opinion over Obama´s healthcare.
boring.... :zzz: I'm not interested in playing word game.

I don´t respect those stupid and immature people who scream and call nasty names... Example Healthcare Town Hall... and protesters in DC... *shake my head* If they want to disagree with Obama then act adult and tell them why they disagree, instead of attack other country´s healthcare and call Nazi, facist, racist, maxisum, socialist, etc...

You said yourself last year that you are anti-socialist.
...... right... I'm anti-fascist, anti-socialist, anti-Nazi, anti-etc except capitalism & democracy - just about majority of Americans too. Your point is?

Yes you have.
link please?

Of course I know. I only remind you that I support you and your bad experience because you wrongly accuse me that I ignored your bad experience which I don´t.

Of course yes, but they (unemployed and low income) people still get healthcare and keep their home under social assistance system. It´s good that they get protect is health and home.

Anyway, don´t twist my post. It´s middle class people who can´t afford healthcare coverage, I am referring to, not low middle class people. Don´t you know what "poor" is? I mean poor is feel sorry or feel bad for people who can´t afford healthcare coverage.
poor people and unemployed people do get benefits in here too. It's called Medicaid (or Medicare? I get confused), SSI, SDI, food stamp, free clinic, public housing, and dozen more. Our tax money pays for it :)
 
boring.... :zzz: I'm not interested in playing word game.


...... right... I'm anti-fascist, anti-socialist, anti-Nazi, anti-etc except capitalism & democracy - just about majority of Americans too. Your point is?


link please?


poor people and unemployed people do get benefits in here too. It's called Medicaid (or Medicare? I get confused), SSI, SDI, food stamp, free clinic, public housing, and dozen more. Our tax money pays for it :)

There's both of medicaid and medicare, also there's section 8 housing that help pay your rent in normal apartment and no more than 30% of your income.

Correct word is SSDI, not SDI.
 
There's both of medicaid and medicare, also there's section 8 housing that help pay your rent in normal apartment and no more than 30% of your income.

Correct word is SSDI, not SDI.

:ty:
 
1. Please for the love of god... you need to get this out of your head - majority of people are NOT losing their homes to medical bill. No wonder you keep thinking Obama's reform is the only solution :roll:

2. You don't have waiting list because you do not have the size and population of America. Plus - you do not have millions of illegal immigrants to deal with. We're paying for it, you know that?

3. increasing the tax is not a solution. You can increase all the tax you want but the problem will be same. We are not made of money. We do not make big money for a long time. Believe me - if you live here long enough, you will understand our problem :)

:lol: I don´t bother to say anything but one thing I would suggest you to search and educate yourself.

You can see how many doctors and nurses here in Germany to compare with America. We have many doctors, specialists, therapies here in Germany that´s why we don´t have waiting list.

How does the NHS compare to US healthcare? | News | guardian.co.uk
 
You don´t understand the difference between disagree and respect. It doesn´t mean that I disrespect you because I disagree with your opinion over Obama´s healthcare.

I don´t respect those stupid and immature people who scream and call nasty names... Example Healthcare Town Hall... and protesters in DC... *shake my head* If they want to disagree with Obama then act adult and tell them why they disagree, instead of attack other country´s healthcare and call Nazi, facist, racist, maxisum, socialist, etc...

You said yourself last year that you are anti-socialist.


Yes you have.

Of course I know. I only remind you that I support you and your bad experience because you wrongly accuse me that I ignored your bad experience which I don´t.

Of course yes, but they (unemployed and low income) people still get healthcare and keep their home under social assistance system. It´s good that they get protect is health and home.

Anyway, don´t twist my post. It´s middle class people who can´t afford healthcare coverage, I am referring to, not low middle class people. Don´t you know what "poor" is? I mean poor is feel sorry or feel bad for people who can´t afford healthcare coverage.


Well, some Americans are happy with their health care like Jiro is one of them and there's other Americans are unhappy with health care like Jillio is one of them so they are fighting over health care issue, especially Obama sponsored health care reform and affordable private insurance to everyone, backed by republican, it means federal will pay some of them.

I support health care reform, including need change the medicare/medicaid laws, I want affordable private insurance, some paid by federal, ban on pre-existing condition, remove the caps and affordable price for drugs. For medicaid and medicare, it should expands to see more doctors, including dermatologist for skin problem, such as acne, rashes, remove the mole (it could associate with cancers) and remove the limit on anti-rejection drugs for organ transplant patients.

I'm strong support of affordable dedicated insurance, it means you don't need worry about lose the insurance after you quit, get fired or laid off.
 
boring.... :zzz: I'm not interested in playing word game.

That´s bad that you don´t know the difference between disrespect and disagree. :)

...... right... I'm anti-fascist, anti-socialist, anti-Nazi, anti-etc except capitalism & democracy - just about majority of Americans too. Your point is?

Oh I only said that I know your own word that you are anti-socialist. It makes me laugh because you don´t know what social is.

link please?

wow, it show itself that you are not telling the truth. It´s good thing that I keep your post to remember.
poor people and unemployed people do get benefits in here too. It's called Medicaid (or Medicare? I get confused), SSI, SDI, food stamp, free clinic, public housing, and dozen more. Our tax money pays for it :)

Of course I know that low income people get medicare SSI, SDI, etc. what´s your point.

My point is middle class people who can´t get medicare, can´t afford to have healthcare coverage.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top