Gun Expert Lott: Let Teachers Carry Arms, Ban Gun-Free Zones to Halt Mass Shootings

[naisho]

People are starting to feel that our school personnel should arm themselves to protect their lives.
To fathom the idea that a place of elementary school education, one of the most safest places from crime in the world for the past few centuries, now requires full measures for safety.

I just lament, what kind of society are we headed for that everyone feels the need to own a gun to protect themselves, or feel safe? What kind of message are we sending?
Perhaps it's going to end up being a society that everyone has a hard time trusting each other.

 

[ambrosia]

There are plenty of ways to conceal guns without wearing bulky jackets. If they don't want to bother with concealing, then they don't need to bring their guns to work. Even if kids "know" that doesn't mean they can touch the guns that their teachers are wearing.

Doesn't matter. They will know, and it is not a good example. I'm not too fond of, no I loathe,the idea of children growing up paranoid and that they need to have a gun with them all the time. That guns are the solution to everything. Everyone is always complaining about the violence on television and in the movies and you think it'd be a good idea for them to know their teacher walks around packing all day??

2012-Sandy Hook
2007-Virginia Tech
1999-Columbine
1966-University of Texas

That's your list of mass shootings at a school. 4, how many years apart? Arming overburdened teachers whose job it is to teach is a good idea? How many days, and how many schools did not have a mass shooting between between 1966 and 2012? Just even thinking about that boggles my mind.

 

[ambrosia]

Brilliant. :roll:

Fair enough, that's about what I think of your idea to arm teachers. But seriously you don't think it would happen? Actually I don't think you're thinking about any repercussions short term or long term of this idea. The best word to describe it would be overboard. Not too mention there is certainly the possibility that the example it's giving children would actually be fuel on the fire and create even more problems.

 

[rockin'robin]

People are starting to feel that our school personnel should arm themselves to protect their lives.
To fathom the idea that a place of elementary school education, one of the most safest places from crime in the world for the past few centuries, now requires full measures for safety.

I just lament, what kind of society are we headed for that everyone feels the need to own a gun to protect themselves, or feel safe? What kind of message are we sending?
Perhaps it's going to end up being a society that everyone has a hard time trusting each other.

A lot of people are already there...(not trusting anyone)....victims of crime, whatever it may be....

remembering the kitchen fire I had several years ago...my boys looking on in "shock"...and my seeing their faces...as to scream..."Mom"!...Do something"!...I got that fire out all by myself, and still don't know how I did it...perhaps it was just the look on my boys' faces that trusted me to get it out...and no one was hurt, just a very lot of smoke damage.....The fire department finally came and gave me a hug and said "you did a great job"....

Surely, if a crazie burst into a classroom armed to the teeth...the children would look to the Teacher to protect them....same as for a home invasion....we adults are to protect the children. Any child!....

 

[Foxrac]

Doesn't matter. They will know, and it is not a good example. I'm not too fond of, no I loathe,the idea of children growing up paranoid and that they need to have a gun with them all the time. That guns are the solution to everything. Everyone is always complaining about the violence on television and in the movies and you think it'd be a good idea for them to know their teacher walks around packing all day??

2012-Sandy Hook
2007-Virginia Tech
1999-Columbine
1966-University of Texas

That's your list of mass shootings at a school. 4, how many years apart? Arming overburdened teachers whose job it is to teach is a good idea? How many days, and how many schools did not have a mass shooting between between 1966 and 2012? Just even thinking about that boggles my mind.

That why I just compare the mass school shooting to earthquake.

 

[Reba]

Doesn't matter. They will know, and it is not a good example. I'm not too fond of, no I loathe,the idea of children growing up paranoid and that they need to have a gun with them all the time. That guns are the solution to everything. Everyone is always complaining about the violence on television and in the movies and you think it'd be a good idea for them to know their teacher walks around packing all day??

2012-Sandy Hook
2007-Virginia Tech
1999-Columbine
1966-University of Texas

That's your list of mass shootings at a school. 4, how many years apart? Arming overburdened teachers whose job it is to teach is a good idea? How many days, and how many schools did not have a mass shooting between between 1966 and 2012? Just even thinking about that boggles my mind.

I never said that teachers should be required to be armed, and I certainly don't recommend it.

I definitely don't believe that guns are the solution to every problem.

I also don't believe that just because someone does carry concealed doesn't mean the person is paranoid.

 

[Reba]

Attacks by shooters aren't the only problem.

This afternoon, TCS and I received this message on our home phone and email accounts:

"This is an emergency alert: The College has received a credible bomb threat at building 410. Take your personal belongings, including your car keys, and evacuate the building. Listen for and be prepared to follow further instructions. Do not come to campus at this time. Thank you, BLAINE LOCKLAIR."

A little later:

"This is an emergency alert: The College has received a credible bomb threat. Take your personal belongings, including your car keys, and evacuate the campus. Listen for and be prepared to follow further instructions. Thank you, Public Safety."

Just a few moments ago, we got this message:

"The Charleston County Sheriff’s Office Explosive Ordnance Disposal Unit rendered the suspicious item safe and a joint investigation between the College Department of Public Safety and Charleston County Sheriff’s Office is on-going. In order for Public Safety to complete their initial investigation, the Main Campus is closed to everyone until noon on Tuesday, December 18. Thank you, Public Safety."

I'm so glad that I take my classes on line.

 

[TXgolfer]

too too too comical to even think a teacher would have the training, reflex, and bravery of SWAT officer who train on daily basis under live fire and in front of barrel.

the cost of routine trainings + range practices + ammunitions + certifications on the top of school buses (transportation) expenses which many schools are struggling to cover... if a teacher has to get a gun herself... I wonder how can she afford one with teacher salary.

yes plain dang comical.

SWAT wasn't there. Victoria Soto was. I bet if we could go back in time, knowing what we know now, she would choose to be armed. Even if the result was the same. at least she had a fighting chance.

 

[Jiro]

SWAT wasn't there. Victoria Soto was. I bet if we could go back in time, knowing what we know now, she would choose to be armed. Even if the result was the same. at least she had a fighting chance.

not really. You weren't there either. You don't know if she wanted to be armed. I'm pretty sure she wished her classroom was better reinforced with stronger lock and door. the shooter did only 2 classrooms.

the most logical, sensible, and cost-effective security protocol - in case of attack, all doors would be immediately locked and intercom system would announce security lockdown. all classrooms should be equipped with reinforced doors and/or panic rooms (closets) and 2-ways intercom system.

 

[Jiro]

If you or your family member was a victim of a home invasion, robbery, or mugging, it wouldn't be a "small trivial thing."

it's trivial compared to mass shooting in terms of news.

 

[Jiro]

I'm late for the party and I didn't read past page one. But I got too het up and impatient to put in my 2 cents, so if this has been covered or if you've moved on...my apologies.

But the point of accidental deaths by arming teacher that aren't not going to be trained for a situation like this, mass confusion, vs someone who broke into your home? i just have one thing to say. Was it over the summer, and was is it NY, there was thread on here. A man opened fire and the police officers shot him, but they also shot how many bystanders?? I'ma dig up that thread, but that is very clear example of why arming teachers is horrid idea.

Plus I just do not want to see our children growing up seeing there teachers toting around a gun all day. What kind of weird example and mindset could that create for them in the future?

aha there it was 6 flippin pages in, man you guys make a lot of threads :P http://www.alldeaf.com/current-events/104106-shooting-area-empire-state-building-casualties.html
And these were police officers, now just imagine a school teacher who is mostly never even going to be faced with this supposed scenario that he/she is defending against is going to react? They will not be prepared.

exactly. Empire State Building shooting came into mind when arming teacher.

the cost is too high and devastating if teacher accidentally shot a student because of "panicked" aiming or mistaken identity or too many things. it's the surefire way to end our right to bear arms and I can easily imagine there would be legislations to restrict or abolish CCW.

in case of chaotic confusion... armed teachers would develop tunnel vision. fear, paranoia, and adrenaline are running very high. out of mortal fear, everybody will suddenly look same to them as potential shooter. an innocent student could be mistakenly identified as a shooter and shot when he "violently" barged into locked classroom out of panic.

a panicked innocent student or adult would do everything - banging on the locked door, screaming at teacher, and then breaking in just to feel safe. it's exactly same behavior as a panicked drowning swimmer.

and here's a problem - what to do with a shooter wearing a military-like clothes? SWAT officers who rushed in dressed nearly same and had nearly similar weapons. massive massive confusion.

 

[ambrosia]

Attacks by shooters aren't the only problem.

This afternoon, TCS and I received this message on our home phone and email accounts:

"This is an emergency alert: The College has received a credible bomb threat at building 410. Take your personal belongings, including your car keys, and evacuate the building. Listen for and be prepared to follow further instructions. Do not come to campus at this time. Thank you, BLAINE LOCKLAIR."

A little later:

"This is an emergency alert: The College has received a credible bomb threat. Take your personal belongings, including your car keys, and evacuate the campus. Listen for and be prepared to follow further instructions. Thank you, Public Safety."

Just a few moments ago, we got this message:

"The Charleston County Sheriff’s Office Explosive Ordnance Disposal Unit rendered the suspicious item safe and a joint investigation between the College Department of Public Safety and Charleston County Sheriff’s Office is on-going. In order for Public Safety to complete their initial investigation, the Main Campus is closed to everyone until noon on Tuesday, December 18. Thank you, Public Safety."

I'm so glad that I take my classes on line.

yeah right credible, they have to call it that, what it is is punks trying to get out of school. http://www.alldeaf.com/general-chat/103253-what-you-thinking-about-part-vi-32.html#post2134034 post I made earlier about just that. Happens every time.

I apologize it I misunderstood, but from everything you posted in this thread it sure sounded like you did.

 

[Jiro]

Armed teachers? That solution has pros and cons

How can violence be prevented?
The website of the center for education safety has lists of things that can be done by various groups – students, parents, teachers, principals, law enforcement – to make schools safer. But in many cases, the recommendations seem to run counter to the arming of teachers and others.

Principals, for example, should “establish ‘zero tolerance’ policies for weapons and violence.” Students should “refuse to bring a weapon to school, refuse to carry a weapon for another, and refuse to keep silent about those who carry weapons.”

In any case, Fennewald said, no one should look at giving guns to teachers and training them on how to use them as the answer to preventing school violence.

“There is no quick fix,” he said. “We need to look at all of the pros and cons of anything we might do. These are complicated issues. If they weren’t, we would have already figured them out."

The problem of violence in schools needs to be put into a measure of perspective, Fennewald said, with suicide and bullying the kinds of problems that result in a much larger loss of student life than the relatively infrequent but high-profile shootings like those in Connecticut.

“Schools are the safest places that children can be,” he said. “It’s a rare occasion to have things like what happened last week.

Whatever is decided, Fennewald knows what at least one teacher feels about the possibility of guns in the classroom. He said his wife is a teacher, and she isn’t particularly keen on the idea.

“She tells me I didn’t become a teacher to become a law enforcement officer,” he said. ‘We have a responsibility to protect kids, she says, but we’re not cops.”

In East St. Louis, he said, “we have locked school doors, metal detectors, and guards at all secondary schools, but there is no guarantee that these precautions can always prevent such a tragedy.”

In his community, though, as opposed to Newtown, Conn., concerns about violence take different forms.

“Our prevailing fear, however, is not the lone intruder forcing his way into our schools. Our nightmares live with us daily as many of our children walk through unsafe neighborhoods to get home from school or get caught in the crossfire of gang violence or drug deals in the community. We understand the horror of losing students to senseless violence, including an honor student shot to death this year. Yet, our educators continue to work tirelessly to prepare our children for a future with hope.”

 

[naisho]

It's important to take into account that there is a difference between elementary and high school/college, obviously. They may be both schools, but the targets and are not the same choices for common offenders.

We need to identify what type of school we are talking about when we are debating on changes to gun/school policies.

Juvenile delinquency starts around a certain offset, probably likely ~15+ as the prime age.
The NCVS (National Crime Victimization Survey) has always shown definitive proof that the older kids get, the more likely they are victimized.

Also, seeing that we are on a deaf site, I saw the victimization rates for disabled children and the younger they are, the more likely they are victimized. This could translate that disabilities schools or just disabled students in mainstream schools are sources of victimization.
Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) - Crime Against Persons with Disabilities, 2008-2010 - Statistical Tables

Younger children should not have to worry about a classmate going psycho. Elementary schools are predisposed to child innocence for the most part anyway. Therefore, high schools and colleges are more likely at risk than elementary schools. This would fall in the event of an offender being the same age or a classmate at a school (ex. Dylan & Klebold, Seung Cho).

The campuses of high school and up are crime attractors. This is taken from Brantingham/Brantingham 1996 on UK Cambridge Police and merchants/stores. It's been awhile since 1971, but I don't believe these rates have changed drastically. Sports bars are still the top places to get involved in a crime.

NCJRS.gov Abstracts: Criminality of Place: Crime Generators and Crime Attractors

 

[TXgolfer]

not really. You weren't there either. You don't know if she wanted to be armed. I'm pretty sure she wished her classroom was better reinforced with stronger lock and door. the shooter did only 2 classrooms.

the most logical, sensible, and cost-effective security protocol - in case of attack, all doors would be immediately locked and intercom system would announce security lockdown. all classrooms should be equipped with reinforced doors and/or panic rooms (closets) and 2-ways intercom system.

We will never know.

 

[shel90]

Why?

Since you think very differently from me, I really dont think you will understand my reasoning.

 

[shel90]

Well, on the bright side.....at least teachers that have sex with their students won't have to use coercion anymore, they can just pull their gun on them and make them

Good one.

 

[shel90]

We have always been told that guns needs to be kept locked up around children..ok?

So, going with that, it means that the teachers MUST lock up their guns in the classrooms since teachers are around children all day.

What good use is a locked up gun if a shooter comes barreling in a classroom armed with an assault rifle?

The logic of teachers bringing guns to school just does not make sense.

If a teacher carries it all day, it would interfere with teaching. We have to wear many hats and feeling the bulge of a gun definitely will be distracting because I would worry about it falling off or a student grabbing it.

I would like the other teachers in here to dispute my theories not those who are not teachers or never experienced teaching. Then, I would be happy to engage in a discussion with them.

 

[Reba]

We have always been told that guns needs to be kept locked up around children..ok?

So, going with that, it means that the teachers MUST lock up their guns in the classrooms since teachers are around children all day.

People with concealed carry permits don't lock up their guns, they wear them, concealed, on their person.

If a teacher carries it all day, it would interfere with teaching. We have to wear many hats and feeling the bulge of a gun definitely will be distracting because I would worry about it falling off or a student grabbing it.

That won't happen with a proper holster. Some holsters are for bras, ankles, under the arm, small of the back, etc., and the guns are small and light weight. They don't interfere with movement any more than wearing a cell phone.

It's up to the individual. No one who doesn't feel comfortable with a gun should carry one.

I would like the other teachers in here to dispute my theories not those who are not teachers or never experienced teaching. Then, I would be happy to engage in a discussion with them.

I'm not a teacher but I've worked in classrooms with teachers. I say it should be an individual choice, and within guidelines which include regular training.

 

[Reba]

yeah right credible, they have to call it that, what it is is punks trying to get out of school. http://www.alldeaf.com/general-chat/103253-what-you-thinking-about-part-vi-32.html#post2134034 post I made earlier about just that. Happens every time.

I don't know. We finished classes about 10 days ago, so only administrative and maintenance staff are on campus now. The building where the threat was houses the culinary arts school, the student learning center, computer classrooms and labs, nursing auditorium, welding shop, the college server, and Boeing airliner classrooms, among other things.

I apologize it I misunderstood, but from everything you posted in this thread it sure sounded like you did.

I support allowing teachers and school staff to be allowed to carry on campus with the proper certifications and training. I don't support forcing teachers to carry weapons on campus.