Grammar

Banjo said:
It's not even the worst part. You see, there is a behavioral problem that can and does develop out of this type of parenting style. Dominant parents. They often do a great deal of damage to a child's self-esteem and its perceptive on life. They develop a habit of interfering with everything in a child's life and even into its adulthood. Education, relationships, careers, lifestyles, friendships, marriages, financial matters, you name it, they try to dominate everything in a child's life. As a result, they are practicing conditional love instead of unconditional love.

It's a frightening thing to witness and yes, I have witnessed it with my own eyes. :(
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As have I. You are absolutely correct in that, too. I wanted to smack someone's mother on more than one occasion for the crap she tries (and tried) to pull and has said!
 
deafskeptic said:
I agree. I've had to deal with stuff like this for most of my life. A lot of the time, I want nothing to do with this person in my life.
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I'm sorry you had to deal with that. I just wish a child shouldn't have to be subjected to conditional love. The concept of where love has to be earned is the worst thing you can teach a child.

I'm incredibly grateful for the wonderful parents I have, they have sacrificed and given me so much. I have returned my gratitude on so many occasions. I just wish a lot of people I know were lucky enough to have that.
 
Banjo said:
I'm sorry you had to deal with that. I just wish a child shouldn't have to be subjected to conditional love. The concept of where love has to be earned is the worst thing you can teach a child.

I'm incredibly grateful for the wonderful parents I have, they have sacrificed and given me so much. I have returned my gratitude on so many occasions. I just wish a lot of people I know were lucky enough to have that.
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Same here.
 
Well, I hope no one gets offended by that, but I think it is somewhat true that deaf people (regardless of their education, since the oral-only adults I met are not necessarily better than the SL users) have a hard time with grammar. mmh... No, that's not the point. Many hearing people does not know how to write their mother language and have poor grammar skills, but deaf people usually make the same kind of mistakes. There are exceptions, though, and I ended up thinking the reason is just one, for both hearing and deaf: nobody was able to teach them to ENJOY READING. Deaf people of course may encounter more difficulties, because spoken english or italian will never be a "natural" language to them, even if it is their first language (and saying this make people in other forums flame me in a moment!) because born deaf people think differently. From the start! This explains why they do the same kind of mistakes... But the ones who like reading are usually better in writing, while the ones who were tortured as kids to "speak, read, write like all other kids" often come to HATE it all so much they'll never pick up a newspaper or book again in their life... And this happens a lot with hearing kids, too. That's why I'm not forcing my children to like books, I just leave them around (i LOVE reading) and read/sign for them when they ask me. Love is not something you can force on someone, but you can SHOW it. The, it's up to them. My hearing kid is already writing at 5 (learning by herself, copying letters), the deaf one doesn't seem interested for now, but that's ok, too.

I don't know, does this make sense to you... ?
 
English language development in deaf people is not really a simple matter. You can't just shove books in their faces, just teach them the rules of grammar, etc and expect them to just pick up the language without much trouble. Up until the late 90's, people didn't have their hearing tested until late. With that, the window of opportunity for learning a language has been completely lost for people who were discovered to be deaf later in life. This window for language development is from birth to about three years. So for people who were discovered to be deaf after three years of age, language development became much more difficult. These days now, babies and toddlers are being tested.

It's not easy to just put on a hearing aid or CI and *boom* the person's English improves. There's so many factors to consider. I know some people who got either the HA or the CI at a young age and they still struggle with their English.

Hearing people can have as many issues with English language development as deaf people. Early exposure to reading is a huge key for anyone, deaf or hearing. So, if parents are negligent to do even the ABCs for common items, English becomes more difficult. This is why Gallaudet University has a reading program for adults to learn how to read with deaf children so teach the children early reading skills.

Even if presented with a lot of text, deaf children still need a visual means of language development. Body language, facial expressions, intonation of signs/gestures, etc all help to guide the wiring of the linguistic center of a child's brain.

And you know what, some hearing people have atrocious language skills, too :P "Where are you at?" is a very common phrase but the grammar error is generally accepted anyway (i.e. the preposition shouldn't be at the end of the sentence). Let's not forget the common issue with it's vs its and two vs too vs to. I would be reading the newspapers and I can spot errors everywhere, and the editors are hearing and supposedly have a bachelor's degree.

Maybe what you need to do in order to help you understand this dilemma is to analyze exactly how you developed your English language. What resources did you and your parents use? How early did you start reading? How much reading did you do on average?
 
kristy2078 said:
English language development in deaf people is not really a simple matter. You can't just shove books in their faces, just teach them the rules of grammar, etc and expect them to just pick up the language without much trouble. Up until the late 90's, people didn't have their hearing tested until late. With that, the window of opportunity for learning a language has been completely lost for people who were discovered to be deaf later in life. This window for language development is from birth to about three years. So for people who were discovered to be deaf after three years of age, language development became much more difficult. These days now, babies and toddlers are being tested.

It's not easy to just put on a hearing aid or CI and *boom* the person's English improves. There's so many factors to consider. I know some people who got either the HA or the CI at a young age and they still struggle with their English.

Hearing people can have as many issues with English language development as deaf people. Early exposure to reading is a huge key for anyone, deaf or hearing. So, if parents are negligent to do even the ABCs for common items, English becomes more difficult. This is why Gallaudet University has a reading program for adults to learn how to read with deaf children so teach the children early reading skills.

Even if presented with a lot of text, deaf children still need a visual means of language development. Body language, facial expressions, intonation of signs/gestures, etc all help to guide the wiring of the linguistic center of a child's brain.

And you know what, some hearing people have atrocious language skills, too :P "Where are you at?" is a very common phrase but the grammar error is generally accepted anyway (i.e. the preposition shouldn't be at the end of the sentence). Let's not forget the common issue with it's vs its and two vs too vs to. I would be reading the newspapers and I can spot errors everywhere, and the editors are hearing and supposedly have a bachelor's degree.

Maybe what you need to do in order to help you understand this dilemma is to analyze exactly how you developed your English language. What resources did you and your parents use? How early did you start reading? How much reading did you do on average?
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Exactly. Well said and you've said this better than I could have.

As for hearing grammar errors, my personal favorites are stuff like your and you're as in "your going to school tomorrow?" there/their as in "is this room there homeroom?" or I seen this before instead of I've seen this before. :P
 
shel90 said:
"I have a CI so I hear better than you."

" I have a CI so I am normal and you are not."
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In the 1970s and 80s, it was "I have a hearing aid so I can hear better than you."

"I have a hearing aid so I am normal and you are not."

Different technology, same oralist attitude. And it's growing.
 
Banjo said:
I can think of a few parents, especially mothers who gave their children an unhealthy dose of pep talk about how lucky they are to be better off than the children who sign. Later in life, they end up having an eye-opening experience and realize that everything they thought they knew was in fact, wrong. Their reality was shattered in a big way.
.
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Yep yep. I can attest to that.
 
Banjo said:
I know a good number of deaf individuals who were raised orally, and some of them grew up to resent their parents. Some do get along with their parents, but a good number of them are estranged and they cannot talk to them about anything without starting a big argument. In fact, their parents often denied that their children were deaf or hard of hearing, and that they truly believed that ASL would do a great deal of harm to one's language development.

In the end, it was not the oral education that they resented, it was the attitude that they resented. The attitude itself did a large amount of damages upon the deaf community and the individuals' self esteem.

I can think of a few parents, especially mothers who gave their children an unhealthy dose of pep talk about how lucky they are to be better off than the children who sign. Later in life, they end up having an eye-opening experience and realize that everything they thought they knew was in fact, wrong. Their reality was shattered in a big way.

I still know a few people who are able to sign, yet they refuse to sign because they feel they shouldn't have to sink to such a lowly language.
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This is how I was raised... no... its said this way... feel how I'm saying it. I was not born Deaf, but there have always been sounds I have never been able to hear... I was raised to be ashamed of who I was, I was raised to think there was something wrong with me. I'm just now realizing there is nothing wrong with me, I am who I am, and yes, I will be completely deaf in a matter of years, and I'm now OK with that.

I didn't see my mom for quite a while after I moved to college, because I was resentful of her attitude towards who I am. I was, and still sometimes am, resentful of the fact that she wouldn't let me learn ASL when I was younger, and her and my teachers would tie my hands behind my back so I couldn't use my "home made" signs. She would sit with me, make me practice my speech, make my practice my lip reading. Telling me, no its pronounced like this, no you say it this way... no thats not what I said...

In high School I wasn't allowed to even meet the one other dhh girl in my school, because she had a CI, and she used sign... the one year we were put in the same class, my mom made my principal switch me out of the class, because "that could be detrimental to Ash's progress, that could be detrimental to her mental health..." what she didn't realize is that she was detrimental to my mental health at that time... always telling me, you need to be more hearing, you need to hide your hearing aids, you need to act normal... why can't you just be normal? It was hard growing up like that... It was hard feeling like there was something wrong with me. She was more accepting of the fact I was gay, then the fact that her daughter was going deaf. It was because of everyone's attitudes around me, because I felt so wrong... that I tried to kill myself... I will NEVER let this happen to my children. They will be loved for who they are, not what they can or can't do. They will be loved and know that whoever they are, is fine with me.
 
ash345 said:
This is how I was raised... no... its said this way... feel how I'm saying it. I was not born Deaf, but there have always been sounds I have never been able to hear... I was raised to be ashamed of who I was, I was raised to think there was something wrong with me. I'm just now realizing there is nothing wrong with me, I am who I am, and yes, I will be completely deaf in a matter of years, and I'm now OK with that.

I didn't see my mom for quite a while after I moved to college, because I was resentful of her attitude towards who I am. I was, and still sometimes am, resentful of the fact that she wouldn't let me learn ASL when I was younger, and her and my teachers would tie my hands behind my back so I couldn't use my "home made" signs. She would sit with me, make me practice my speech, make my practice my lip reading. Telling me, no its pronounced like this, no you say it this way... no thats not what I said...

In high School I wasn't allowed to even meet the one other dhh girl in my school, because she had a CI, and she used sign... the one year we were put in the same class, my mom made my principal switch me out of the class, because "that could be detrimental to Ash's progress, that could be detrimental to her mental health..." what she didn't realize is that she was detrimental to my mental health at that time... always telling me, you need to be more hearing, you need to hide your hearing aids, you need to act normal... why can't you just be normal? It was hard growing up like that... It was hard feeling like there was something wrong with me. She was more accepting of the fact I was gay, then the fact that her daughter was going deaf. It was because of everyone's attitudes around me, because I felt so wrong... that I tried to kill myself... I will NEVER let this happen to my children. They will be loved for who they are, not what they can or can't do. They will be loved and know that whoever they are, is fine with me.
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Glad to see you at Averys last night :)
 
ash345 said:
This is how I was raised... no... its said this way... feel how I'm saying it. I was not born Deaf, but there have always been sounds I have never been able to hear... I was raised to be ashamed of who I was, I was raised to think there was something wrong with me. I'm just now realizing there is nothing wrong with me, I am who I am, and yes, I will be completely deaf in a matter of years, and I'm now OK with that.

I didn't see my mom for quite a while after I moved to college, because I was resentful of her attitude towards who I am. I was, and still sometimes am, resentful of the fact that she wouldn't let me learn ASL when I was younger, and her and my teachers would tie my hands behind my back so I couldn't use my "home made" signs. She would sit with me, make me practice my speech, make my practice my lip reading. Telling me, no its pronounced like this, no you say it this way... no thats not what I said...

In high School I wasn't allowed to even meet the one other dhh girl in my school, because she had a CI, and she used sign... the one year we were put in the same class, my mom made my principal switch me out of the class, because "that could be detrimental to Ash's progress, that could be detrimental to her mental health..." what she didn't realize is that she was detrimental to my mental health at that time... always telling me, you need to be more hearing, you need to hide your hearing aids, you need to act normal... why can't you just be normal? It was hard growing up like that... It was hard feeling like there was something wrong with me. She was more accepting of the fact I was gay, then the fact that her daughter was going deaf. It was because of everyone's attitudes around me, because I felt so wrong... that I tried to kill myself... I will NEVER let this happen to my children. They will be loved for who they are, not what they can or can't do. They will be loved and know that whoever they are, is fine with me.
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So many parents make this same mistake. I see the kids in therapy, sadly enough.
 
Ever since I was in middle school I can remember my mom wanting me to proof-read her letters or anything that had to do with her grammar. I always understood because she writes how she signs. It's as simple as that. It doesn't mean she's stupid or uneducated, it simply means the grammar that is her native language is different than English grammar, primarily word order. I can understand what my mom is saying when she sends me emails and other text correspondence but it is definitely not "grammatically correct" AND that's ok. I don't think it's a big deal because she has done absolutely fine in her life and she's 48. It has never set her back or caused her job performance to suffer.

Does it really matter to you sailorboy or are you just trying to make people feel bad?
 
traciedantoni said:
Ever since I was in middle school I can remember my mom wanting me to proof-read her letters or anything that had to do with her grammar. I always understood because she writes how she signs. It's as simple as that. It doesn't mean she's stupid or uneducated, it simply means the grammar that is her native language is different than English grammar, primarily word order. I can understand what my mom is saying when she sends me emails and other text correspondence but it is definitely not "grammatically correct" AND that's ok. I don't think it's a big deal because she has done absolutely fine in her life and she's 48. It has never set her back or caused her job performance to suffer.

Does it really matter to you sailorboy or are you just trying to make people feel bad?
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Love that.
 
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