Gates: Obama is more analytical than Bush

[Steel X]

If we're going to criticize Obama for not serving in the military, let's also do the same for past Presidents as well.

I've heard that when Bill Clinton was younger, he was asked to join the army he said no and ran away in fear. :roll: I wasnt sure if thats true thou.

 

[Hear Again]

I've heard that when Bill Clinton was younger, he was asked to join the army he said no and ran away in fear. :roll: I wasnt sure if thats true thou.

I don't know if that's true either, but the Army, Marines and Navy aren't for everyone. I happen to have alot of respect for people who enlist because (if I weren't totally blind) I don't know if I'd have the guts to.

 

[Jiro]

The military, by and large, has always been composed of people coming from less than affluent backgrounds, most especially since the draft was outlawed.

State colleges are also made of up a student body coming from less than affluent backgrounds.

Let's see...

Who Serves in the U.S. Military? The Demographics of Enlisted Troops and Officers

Who serves in the active-duty ranks of the U.S. all-volunteer military? Conventional wisdom holds that military service disproportionately attracts minorities and men and women from disadvantaged backgrounds. Many believe that troops enlist because they have few options, not because they want to serve their country. Others believe that the war in Iraq has forced the military to lower its recruiting standards.

Based on an understanding of the limitations of any objective definition of quality, this report compares military volunteers to the civilian population on four demographic characteristics: household income, education level, racial and ethnic back*ground, and regional origin. This report finds that:

1. U.S. military service disproportionately attracts enlisted personnel and officers who do not come from disadvantaged backgrounds. Previous Heritage Foundation research demonstrated that the quality of enlisted troops has increased since the start of the Iraq war. This report demonstrates that the same is true of the officer corps.

2. Members of the all-volunteer military are significantly more likely to come from high-income neighborhoods than from low-income neighborhoods. Only 11 percent of enlisted recruits in 2007 came from the poorest one-fifth (quintile) of neighborhoods, while 25 percent came from the wealthiest quintile. These trends are even more pronounced in the Army Reserve Officer Training Corps (ROTC) pro*gram, in which 40 percent of enrollees come from the wealthiest neighborhoods—a number that has increased substantially over the past four years.

3. American soldiers are more educated than their peers. A little more than 1 percent of enlisted personnel lack a high school degree, compared to 21 percent of men 18–24 years old, and 95 percent of officer accessions have at least a bachelor’s degree.

4. Contrary to conventional wisdom, minorities are not overrepresented in military service. Enlisted troops are somewhat more likely to be white or black than their non-military peers. Whites are proportionately represented in the officer corps, and blacks are overrepresented, but their rate of overrepresentation has declined each year from 2004 to 2007. New recruits are also disproportionately likely to come from the South, which is in line with the history of Southern military tradition.

Enlisted Personnel

Household Income. Enlisted recruits in 2006 and 2007 came primarily from middle-class and upper-middle-class backgrounds. Low-income neighborhoods were underrepresented among enlisted troops, while middle-class and high-income neighborhoods were overrepresented.

Education. Contrary to popular perceptions, America’s enlisted troops are not poorly educated. Previous Heritage Foundation studies found that enlisted troops were significantly more likely to have a high school education than their peers. This is still the case. Only 1.4 percent of enlisted recruits in 2007 had not graduated from high school or completed a high school equivalency degree, com*pared to 20.8 percent of men ages 18 to 24. America’s soldiers are less likely than civilians to be high school dropouts.

The military requires at least 90 percent of enlisted recruits to have high school diplomas.[6] Most enlisted recruits do not have a college degree because they enlist before they would attend college. However, many recruits use the educational benefits offered by the military to attend college after they leave the armed forces.

Conclusion

The men and women who serve in America’s all-volunteer military do not come disproportionately from disadvantaged backgrounds. Instead, the opposite is true. Both active-duty enlisted troops and officers come disproportionately from high-income neighborhoods—a trend that has increased since 9/11.

America’s troops are highly educated. Enlisted recruits have above-average intelligence and are far more likely than their civilian peers to have a high school degree. Nearly all of the officer corps has at least a four-year college education—far greater than the rate in the civilian population. The racial composition of the military is similar to that of the civilian population, although whites and blacks are slightly overrepresented among enlisted recruits.

The popular impression that many soldiers join the military because they lack better opportunities is wrong. In all likelihood, our soldiers would have had many lucrative career opportunities in the private sector. The officers and enlisted men and women of the armed forces have made sacrifices to serve in the U.S. military.

 

[Jiro]

U.S. Military Recruiting Demographics

Nov 27 2005
By Jim Garamone

The U.S. military is not a "poor man's force."

That's the conclusion Defense Department officials reached following examination of enlisted recruiting statistics gathered over the past year.

"There is an issue of how representative of America is the force," said Curt Gilroy, the director of DoD's accessions policy in the Pentagon.

DoD tracks "representativeness" - as Gilroy calls it - very closely. And representativeness can take a whole host of forms - race, education, social status, income, region and so on. "When you look at all of those, you find that the force is really quite representative of the country," he said in a recent interview. "It mirrors the country in many of these. And where it doesn't mirror America, it exceeds America."

The data shows the force is more educated than the population at large. Servicemembers have high school diplomas or the general equivalency diploma. More servicemembers have some college than the typical 18- to 24-year-olds. "To carry representativeness to the extreme, we would have to have a less-educated force or we would want a lower-aptitude force," Gilroy said.

The study is part of DoD's focus to bring the best recruits into the military. The services - who are responsible for manning, equipping and training the force - take this data and apply it to recruiting efforts.

The force is a volunteer force; no one is coerced into serving. The military is one option young people have after high school. Military service offers money for college - money a large segment of the population doesn't have. For those people, the military is an attractive option.

Many young people who don't yet know what they want to do see the military as a place to serve and decide what they want to do for the rest of their lives, rather than take a low-paying job or do nothing.

Critics say the U.S. military has too many African-Americans as compared to the population and not enough Hispanics or Asian-Americans. "We don't recruit for race," Gilroy said. "We have standards, and if people meet those standards, then should we say they are not allowed in because of race? That would be wrong."

The statistics show the number of African-American servicemembers is dropping. That concerns Gilroy and his office. The military is a leader in equal opportunity in the United States, he said, adding that few, if any, Fortune 500 companies can match the equal employment opportunity record of the military. The office is studying why young black men and women are not signing up.

The office also is studying the Hispanic population in America. Census records say Hispanics are the largest minority group in the United States. Young Hispanic men and women have a strong tendency to serve in the military, though so far, only the Marine Corps has been "able to break the code" to get significant numbers of recruits, Gilroy said.

On the socioeconomic side, the military is strongly middle class, Gilroy said. More recruits are drawn from the middle class and fewer are coming from poorer and wealthier families. Recruits from poorer families are actually underrepresented in the military, Gilroy said.

Other trends are that the number of recruits from wealthier families is increasing, and the number of recruits from suburban areas has increased. This also tracks that young men and women from the middle class are serving in the military.

Young men and women from urban areas are not volunteering, Gilroy said. In fact, urban areas provide far fewer recruits as a percentage of the total population than small towns and rural areas.

DoD and the services will use these statistics and more to craft their recruiting policies, Gilroy said.

perhaps you should visit West Point.... It is educational. The demography and the old stereotype of US Military is just not what you thought it was.... and that is where your shortcoming of knowledge in this issue is clearly evident.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Brilliant? How so? How has he displayed his brilliance in military strategy?

What brilliant plans has he successfully executed in the past? Please enlighten me

Yes, he's a brilliant enough to listen his commanders' advice. Yes, he is an optimistic about Iraq issues.

Obama want to withdraw all of troops out of Iraq within 16 months time but it's complicated... Accord SOFA agreement, Bush signed with Iraqi government last summer 2008, all soldiers should be out of Iraq by end of December 2011. Obama can't break their agreement so he withdraw over 150,000 troops by August 2010 (only 3 months difference between 16 and 19 months which is not much and one year earlier than Bush's SOFA agreement) and leave between 35,000 and 50,000 soldiers in Iraq after August 2010 to March 2011 to train Iraqi forces...

Yes, I support Obama's decision because his statement seems very clear to me.

What's the strategy you suggest if you disagree with Obama's statement?

 

[Jiro]

Their first hand experience related to you is still second hand experience and does not confer expertise to you. Experience is not absorbed through osmosis.

I suppose this is your feeble attempt to disguise your unwillingness to concede of your error. I'll add this to further demonstrate the wide gap between our understanding in this matter - I was the former student of Virginia Tech for 3 years (formerly known as Virginia Polytechnic Institute & State University) which is a military academy that is a long rival of West Point. It was later opened to civilian students in 1964. I believe... that first-hand experience alone gives me a far more in-depth understanding & insight of these fine men and women than you. hence... the "Jiro" was born

Ut Prosim

 

[Liebling:-)))]

smells like.... brown-nosing....

brilliant? Why?

See my last response post to Reba.

Let's see - it's nice that Obama is listening and making sure everybody said something...

Exactly but Bush doesn't.

and yet Obama is STILL using majority of Bush's policy regarding military strategy, national security policy, and Gitmo Camp. and now I see that he's considering Admiral Mike Mullen as the next chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff (with recommendation of Gates) - the one who was appointed by Bush.

No, I do not see anything that Obama follow Bush's footstep. He withdraw over 150,000 troops one year earlier than Bush's SOFA agreement with Iraqi Government to leave few thousands troops there in Iraq to train Iraqi forces by March 2011, not December 2011.

Should Obama break SOFA agreement, Bush signed with Iraqi Government last year before Obama win at election? (see my response post to Reba).

Gitmo situation, I do not see anything that Obama follow Bush's footstep to close Gitmo camp within one year.

If you ask me - Obama is CLUELESS :scratch:

How? He took over Bush's job position at 6 weeks ago to compare with Bush's lousy 8 years... :roll:

 

[Liebling:-)))]

More analytical is a good thing. It indicates that Obama is willing to consider all implications and possible consequences of the decisions he makes. That is a sign of fluid intelligence and resposnibility. Likewise, consulting with others who may have varying viewpoints and valid input is also a sign of responsibility to his office, as well as a realistic understanding of the fact that consultation with experts in various fields only strengthens the decisions he makes and allows for greater success in his vision.

You make a good point but he use good common sense which is different as Bush.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Clinton and Lincoln didnt serve in the military, didnt they? They turned out to be great leaders...

Yes I second that.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

too bad I was forced to vote for lesser evil. oh well - 4 more years

the fact still remains that despite of what you said - "Willingness to consult and consider varying viewpoints".... Obama still follows Bush's policy. Not bad for a guy who "was interested in hearing different points of view but didn't go out of his way to make sure everybody spoke if they hadn't spoken up before," eh?

Your post sound that you wish to elect McCain instead of Obama.

Don't you know that McCain SUPPORT Obama's plan? Yes, we know McCain's plan for Iraq and want to have troops to stay there for 100 years during Election 2008. Now he change his mind and support Obama's plan...

No, Obama do not follow Bush's policy. Re-read my response post to Reba's and your post.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

who said I want to run for those seat? I'm a voter and I'd like to elect a qualified person to the seat. Again - in my previous post, I was forced to vote for lesser evil.

and that's what 99% of my posts have been about.

Good day!

Who force you to vote Obama?

 

[Liebling:-)))]

I do say that Obama is doing his part by hearing what others have to say about the issues. That is a smart move and a good choice to make by listening to all sides.

Does not mean it will necessarily change his way of thinking. but at least he is allowing others to voice what they have to say. By him doing that he knows how certain people feel. Believe it or not. It does have an impact on people, when they allow all sides to converse on what they feel about issues.

His decision is going to be just like any presidents decisions. We all may not agree. "I" may not agree. But he was voted chief of commander. "The President" by majority of people in the U.S.

Exactly.

 

[Foxrac]

Yes, he's a brilliant enough to listen his commanders' advice. Yes, he is an optimistic about Iraq issues.

Obama want to withdraw all of troops out of Iraq within 16 months time but it's complicated... Accord SOFA agreement, Bush signed with Iraqi government last summer 2008, all soldiers should be out of Iraq by end of December 2011. Obama can't break their agreement so he withdraw over 150,000 troops by August 2010 (only 3 months difference between 16 and 19 months which is not much and one year earlier than Bush's SOFA agreement) and leave between 35,000 and 50,000 soldiers in Iraq after August 2010 to March 2011 to train Iraqi forces...

Yes, I support Obama's decision because his statement seems very clear to me.

What's the strategy you suggest if you disagree with Obama's statement?

It doesn't means that Obama is brilliant, [comment uncalled for removed by Mod]

Obama's job isn't brilliant, period and numbers aren't always to be accurate, even he's not better handle as Bush does due lacks of military experience.

You need to check again on background for Bush, he does handle Iraq so well but only problem about war isn't finish until his presidency term end and it will going be little longer for conflict, including in Afghan.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

It doesn't means that Obama is brilliant, [comment uncalled for removed by Mod].

Excuse me, I saw him and US politic on German TV everyday. I involved with Americans in real life. I can say in my opinion about him.

Obama's job isn't brilliant, period and numbers aren't always to be accurate, even he's not better handle as Bush does due lacks of military experience.

If you think Obama is not brilliant with his job then is your opinion as same as I have my opinion about Obama as well. Can't you handle agree to disagree with me instead of make harsh post toward me because I'm a foriegner?

I said "over 150,000" and "between 35,000 and 50,000" is an estimate which mean is not exact numbers. Everyone estimate the numbers which is normal.

And if Obama think he can't handle military issues then he would not take over Bush's position, doesn't he? To me, he doing his job well since he took over Bush's position at 6 weeks ago.

You need to check again on background for Bush, he does handle Iraq so well but only problem about war isn't finish until his presidency term end and it will going be little longer for conflict, including in Afghan.

Excuse me, I do not need to re-check Bush's political background because I already know for past 8 years.

 

[Foxrac]

Excuse me, I saw US politic on German TV everyday and also saw him and his speech as well. I involved with Americans in real life. I can say in my opinion about him.



If you think Obama is not brilliant with his job then is your opinion as same as I have my opinion about Obama as well. Can't you handle agree to disagree with me instead of make harsh post toward me because I'm a foriegner?

I said "over 150,000" and "between 35,000 and 50,000" is an estimate which mean is not exact numbers. Everyone estimate the numbers which is normal.

And if Obama think he can't handle military issues then he would not take over Bush's position, doesn't he? To me, he doing his job well since he took over Bush's position at 6 weeks ago.



Excuse me, I do not need to re-check Bush's political background because I already know for past 8 years.

US political on German TV isn't full detail as media in America.

I'm really not care if you think Obama is brilliant or not, he has been in presidency for after 1 month right now and there's no status for his views on military is good or not.

Again, Obama or media could say about numbers but not always to be accurate, it's about depends on how goes in Iraq, it could be more worse than expected.

We had president with no or little military experience, we could nothing to do because our constitution don't allows Bush to be presidency for other term after 2nd, however, I rather to have president that who has more military experience that could handle the war, again, there's no status for Obama and won't make report until after 1 year.

No, you made unnecessary negative against Bush at all time, it's just like most other liberal people or anti-war rights with little or no positive.

 

[jillio]

It doesn't means that Obama is brilliant, [comment uncalled for removed by Mod].

Obama's job isn't brilliant, period and numbers aren't always to be accurate, even he's not better handle as Bush does due lacks of military experience.

You need to check again on background for Bush, he does handle Iraq so well but only problem about war isn't finish until his presidency term end and it will going be little longer for conflict, including in Afghan.

Bush's handling of the war is one of the main things that had the crossover voters leaving the Republican party in this election and voting for Obama.

 

[Foxrac]

Bush's handling of the war is one of the main things that had the crossover voters leaving the Republican party in this election and voting for Obama.

It was Donald Rumsfeld, not entire of fault were from Bush about situation with war in Iraq.

For democrat tookover congress, there's more reason than just only for war and approval rating has driven so badly.

I never liked Bush for many of his presidency but his handling with war is fine.

 

[jillio]

It was Donald Rumsfeld, not entire of fault were from Bush about situation with war in Iraq.

For democrat tookover congress, there's more reason than just only for war and approval rating has driven so badly.

I never liked Bush for many of his presidency but his handling with war is fine.

You are entitled to your opinion. The majority of the American voters happen to disagree with you, however.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

US political on German TV isn't full detail as media in America.

I do have three US programms in German TV. I can compare US with German over US news...

I'm really not care if you think Obama is brilliant or not, he has been in presidency for after 1 month right now and there's no status for his views on military is good or not.

I know him and his intelligence for few years, not not 6 weeks ago.

Again, Obama or media could say about numbers but not always to be accurate, it's about depends on how goes in Iraq, it could be more worse than expected.

Like what I said before, everyone use estimate to anything...

We had president with no or little military experience, we could nothing to do because our constitution don't allows Bush to be presidency for other term after 2nd, however, I rather to have president that who has more military experience that could handle the war, again, there's no status for Obama and won't make report until after 1 year.

Look at few presidents like Obama who don't have military experience but they doing pretty good because they use their positive intelligence.

No, you made unnecessary negative against Bush at all time, it's just like most other liberal people or anti-war rights with little or no positive.

You said this, not me.

I'm sorry if you don't like my honest view over Bush... I do not see anything positive about Bush after what and how he did to US soilders, people in the USA and the world.

 

[Frisky Feline]

:roll:


watching online/tv news medias are all over the world. duh