For Hearing Educators

deafdyke said:
Um no It's not. Would parents chose speech only if it wasn't promoted via inspiration porn and ablelist langague? B/c it IS!
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According to the parents I have spoken with, they choose spoken language so that they can model fluent language for their child. They want their children to grow up using the language of their home, family, and culture so that they can participate fully in it. They want their children to have the opportunity to communicate with those around them, attend social and extracurricular activities in their local area and be fully engaged with the community that they were born in.
 
Teacherofthedeaf said:
The adults who teach in listening and spoken language schools. The adults with children in my program. The adults who become audiologists and choose to advocate for listening and spoken language. The adults who speak at Hands and Voices and A.G. Bell and at E.H.D.I. Those adults.

Have you watched the documentary film, "The Listening Project"?
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You mean the BIASED adults who subscribe to a VERY biased philosopy or who were brainwashed by parents to think they were better educated then kids who also Sign or attend a deaf school/program?
 
Teacherofthedeaf said:
According to the parents I have spoken with, they choose spoken language so that they can model fluent language for their child. They want their children to grow up using the language of their home, family, and culture so that they can participate fully in it. They want their children to have the opportunity to communicate with those around them, attend social and extracurricular activities in their local area and be fully engaged with the community that they were born in.
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Did you cut and paste that from the AG Bell site? It sounds EXACTLY like you did......and the point being is that if ASL was promoted as "your kid can be BILINGAL" you'd see very few parents opting for a monoglot approach.....and you're so deep into oral theory you don't see that it's ABELIST audist rhetoric that makes them think their kid will be able to parcipatate "fully" in it. They are HOH. They're ALWAYS going to miss out on stuff. Besides, you do know that dhh kids can grow up with BOTH spoken English and Sign and be able to parcipatate in their local communities!
 
ToD, I'm getting the sense from most of your posts that you spend the vast majority of your time with children and hearing parents of deaf children with an occasional Deaf parent of deaf children. And it seems like you spend little time with Deaf adults. I've rarely seen you post anything that seems related to adult Deaf. And from this observation it makes me wonder. Do you really understand the impact of these types of education on Deaf adults. I know this is just anecdote, but the number of deaf adults that I know that have completely rejected their hearing families because of these practices in alarming. Deaf Community is a community of acquisition, not a community of genetics. And even though these young people are born to hearing families and living in a hearing world, the community they are going to call home as adults is going to be the Deaf community. And there are parts of that that are very important. ASL being one of them. Their social interactions, their friendships, their partners as adults are all going to be based around communication. Most of the deaf adults that I know who were raised oral or who were HoH, but never taught to communicate in any way other than an verbally are all angry or depressed feeling isolated because they were never taught to communicate with members of the community they were born into. Born into meaning being Deaf. Not their families. The vast majority of Deaf adults that I know either had families who learned to sign. In which case they still have good relationships with them. Or families who refused to learn to sign and those Deaf have no more interaction with their families. I know you believe that families know what's best for their children. But time and time again I've seen this to not be true. Families want their kids to be part of them forever, and unfortunately they seem to think that means making them as close to hearing as possible. When what they should really be doing is preparing their children for the community that they aren't yet aware they are a part of but that will someday become their world.
 
Lysander said:
ToD, I'm getting the sense from most of your posts that you spend the vast majority of your time with children and hearing parents of deaf children with an occasional Deaf parent of deaf children. And it seems like you spend little time with Deaf adults. I've rarely seen you post anything that seems related to adult Deaf. And from this observation it makes me wonder. Do you really understand the impact of these types of education on Deaf adults. I know this is just anecdote, but the number of deaf adults that I know that have completely rejected their hearing families because of these practices in alarming. Deaf Community is a community of acquisition, not a community of genetics. And even though these young people are born to hearing families and living in a hearing world, the community they are going to call home as adults is going to be the Deaf community. And there are parts of that that are very important. ASL being one of them. Their social interactions, their friendships, their partners as adults are all going to be based around communication. Most of the deaf adults that I know who were raised oral or who were HoH, but never taught to communicate in any way other than an verbally are all angry or depressed feeling isolated because they were never taught to communicate with members of the community they were born into. Born into meaning being Deaf. Not their families. The vast majority of Deaf adults that I know either had families who learned to sign. In which case they still have good relationships with them. Or families who refused to learn to sign and those Deaf have no more interaction with their families. I know you believe that families know what's best for their children. But time and time again I've seen this to not be true. Families want their kids to be part of them forever, and unfortunately they seem to think that means making them as close to hearing as possible. When what they should really be doing is preparing their children for the community that they aren't yet aware they are a part of but that will someday become their world.
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I spend lots of time with deaf adults. As I said, there are several deaf adults in our school and deaf and Deaf parents of children with hearing loss. I am close with two deaf adults who know ASL but use it only to communicate with friends who are Deaf. I went to grad school with an adult who was implanted when he was 5 and is now a LSL teacher of the deaf. He knows ASL and uses it when he is with other Deaf people but doesn't care to use it on a daily basis.
I know that what you are speaking of has been common in the past, but what about the last 15 years? How many young adults feel this way? I completely agree that if you do not have access to language you will struggle and will likely reject those who put you into that situation. That is not what I see every day. I see students who easily acquire language from their peers and by overhearing. Children not just catching up but exceeding age matched peers. I have students who are four and five and have extremely complex language, age appropriate social skills, and are reading at the kindergarten and first grade level. They are doing great and have no reason to be "angry" or "depressed".
 
deafdyke said:
Did you cut and paste that from the AG Bell site? It sounds EXACTLY like you did......and the point being is that if ASL was promoted as "your kid can be BILINGAL" you'd see very few parents opting for a monoglot approach.....and you're so deep into oral theory you don't see that it's ABELIST audist rhetoric that makes them think their kid will be able to parcipatate "fully" in it. They are HOH. They're ALWAYS going to miss out on stuff. Besides, you do know that dhh kids can grow up with BOTH spoken English and Sign and be able to parcipatate in their local communities!
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No, I actually asked parents and listened.
 
deafdyke said:
You mean the BIASED adults who subscribe to a VERY biased philosopy or who were brainwashed by parents to think they were better educated then kids who also Sign or attend a deaf school/program?
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So if someone disagrees with you they are brainwashed? These are well educated adults who can think for themselves.
 
Lysander said:
ToD, I'm getting the sense from most of your posts that you spend the vast majority of your time with children and hearing parents of deaf children with an occasional Deaf parent of deaf children. And it seems like you spend little time with Deaf adults. I've rarely seen you post anything that seems related to adult Deaf. And from this observation it makes me wonder. Do you really understand the impact of these types of education on Deaf adults. I know this is just anecdote, but the number of deaf adults that I know that have completely rejected their hearing families because of these practices in alarming. Deaf Community is a community of acquisition, not a community of genetics. And even though these young people are born to hearing families and living in a hearing world, the community they are going to call home as adults is going to be the Deaf community. And there are parts of that that are very important. ASL being one of them. Their social interactions, their friendships, their partners as adults are all going to be based around communication. Most of the deaf adults that I know who were raised oral or who were HoH, but never taught to communicate in any way other than an verbally are all angry or depressed feeling isolated because they were never taught to communicate with members of the community they were born into. Born into meaning being Deaf. Not their families. The vast majority of Deaf adults that I know either had families who learned to sign. In which case they still have good relationships with them. Or families who refused to learn to sign and those Deaf have no more interaction with their families. I know you believe that families know what's best for their children. But time and time again I've seen this to not be true. Families want their kids to be part of them forever, and unfortunately they seem to think that means making them as close to hearing as possible. When what they should really be doing is preparing their children for the community that they aren't yet aware they are a part of but that will someday become their world.
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BINGO! I get the vibe that TOD has prolly just talked with one or two extremist parents and the type of kid who grew up MISRABLE being oral and mainstreamed but fakes it b/c their parents are so extreme. They exist....like the type of parent who flips out about ONE thing and suddenly that one thing turns into "EVERYTHING is bad and horrid" about this approach.
 
Teacherofthedeaf said:
I spend lots of time with deaf adults. As I said, there are several deaf adults in our school and deaf and Deaf parents of children with hearing loss. I am close with two deaf adults who know ASL but use it only to communicate with friends who are Deaf. I went to grad school with an adult who was implanted when he was 5 and is now a LSL teacher of the deaf. He knows ASL and uses it when he is with other Deaf people but doesn't care to use it on a daily basis.
I know that what you are speaking of has been common in the past, but what about the last 15 years? How many young adults feel this way? I completely agree that if you do not have access to language you will struggle and will likely reject those who put you into that situation. That is not what I see every day. I see students who easily acquire language from their peers and by overhearing. Children not just catching up but exceeding age matched peers. I have students who are four and five and have extremely complex language, age appropriate social skills, and are reading at the kindergarten and first grade level. They are doing great and have no reason to be "angry" or "depressed".
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How about Deaf adults who sign? Or an actualy Deaf adult not a formerly deaf adult who implanted at age 5 and probably has no knowledge of the Deaf community because of his hearing parents and teachers? Or take a graduate level class since you're oh so highly educated at Gallaudet?

I'm in my twenties and I along with many of my mainstreamed peers feel that way thank you very much.

(I'm baaaaackkk)
 
zeefour said:
How about Deaf adults who sign? Or an actualy Deaf adult not a formerly deaf adult who implanted at age 5 and probably has no knowledge of the Deaf community because of his hearing parents and teachers? Or take a graduate level class since you're oh so highly educated at Gallaudet?

I'm in my twenties and I along with many of my mainstreamed peers feel that way thank you very much.

(I'm baaaaackkk)
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I have worked with Deaf adults as well. As I said, I am currently serving two Deaf families. The Deaf community is a self-selected sample, just like an A.G. Bell conference. The Deaf community is full of people who were unhappy with or unable to use spoken language and know and use ASL. It will not ever include people who were happy with spoken language and see no need for ASL. It is a biased sample.
 
deafdyke said:
Well educated according to who? Simply b/c someone gets a degree doesn't mean they're smart or that they can think
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That’s crossing the line. I do have a degree, yes, but I’m deaf, smart and can think for myself. *disgusted with your comments. You didn’t need to be snarky.*
 
AlleyCat said:
That’s crossing the line. I do have a degree, yes, but I’m deaf, smart and can think for myself. *disgusted with your comments. You didn’t need to be snarky.*
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No, that wasn't a slur about you. But I was talking more about ...if you talk to college professors you will hear stories like "this kid shouldn't be in college" or even with first job sites you'll hear comments like "Kid went to Harvard but he really cannot think. All he can do is write papers." I wasn't saying that ALL people with college degrees weren't smart. Just that SOME people may have earned a degree b/c they're good at passing in papers!
 
Teacherofthedeaf said:
Watch the film and decide for yourself.
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Was the film sponsored by the Oberkotter foundation or other people who think that there's MONEY in oralism? Problem is that the oralists are CONVINCED it's still 1974 and that people will be so impressed by a kid being able to hear and speak that they will be able to coast to Harvard based exclusively on that. NOBODY is impressed. Most dhh kids including kids who Sign also TALK....Besides I bet the people who made the movie would be horrified at the stories I see and hear every single DAY....FROM PROFESSIONALS without a bias. You do realize that the hearing world isn't some glorious utopia where everyone is well educated and is popular and has an amazing paying job right?
 
Teacherofthedeaf said:
I have worked with Deaf adults as well. As I said, I am currently serving two Deaf families. The Deaf community is a self-selected sample, just like an A.G. Bell conference. The Deaf community is full of people who were unhappy with or unable to use spoken language and know and use ASL. It will not ever include people who were happy with spoken language and see no need for ASL. It is a biased sample.
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Um no. One of the defintions of Deaf is someone who uses ASL in their daily lives. You said one of the families knows ASL but doesn't use it in school or at home. Besides it's very rare for families who know ASL to opt for an oral education. It DOES happen, mostly as part of a "many different pieces to the puzzle approach," in preschool if oral skills need to be worked on. But it's VERY rare....and you have two Deaf families who opted for an oral early childhood placement? Yeah, right. Also I can guarentee you that most of the adults at an AG Bell conference were raised by parents with extreme views.....you know, the mothers on FB who have a HATE on about ASL or even oral schools. You know, the ones who drilled it into their kids' heads that they were better educated or better then kids who use Sign. Most oral adults were NOT given the choice to learn to sign.
 
deafdyke said:
Was the film sponsored by the Oberkotter foundation or other people who think that there's MONEY in oralism? Problem is that the oralists are CONVINCED it's still 1974 and that people will be so impressed by a kid being able to hear and speak that they will be able to coast to Harvard based exclusively on that. NOBODY is impressed. Most dhh kids including kids who Sign also TALK....Besides I bet the people who made the movie would be horrified at the stories I see and hear every single DAY....FROM PROFESSIONALS without a bias. You do realize that the hearing world isn't some glorious utopia where everyone is well educated and is popular and has an amazing paying job right?
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Watch it and judge for yourself. It was made by a child of Deaf adults who was nominated for an Oscar. Oh, and I think one of the participants went to Harvard.
 
deafdyke said:
Um no. One of the defintions of Deaf is someone who uses ASL in their daily lives. You said one of the families knows ASL but doesn't use it in school or at home. Besides it's very rare for families who know ASL to opt for an oral education. It DOES happen, mostly as part of a "many different pieces to the puzzle approach," in preschool if oral skills need to be worked on. But it's VERY rare....and you have two Deaf families who opted for an oral early childhood placement? Yeah, right. Also I can guarentee you that most of the adults at an AG Bell conference were raised by parents with extreme views.....you know, the mothers on FB who have a HATE on about ASL or even oral schools. You know, the ones who drilled it into their kids' heads that they were better educated or better then kids who use Sign. Most oral adults were NOT given the choice to learn to sign.
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I specifically said that I am serving two Deaf families right now. I also work with an adult who uses ASL for group meetings and things like that, but still advocates for and works at a spoken language school. In total, I have worked with over a dozen Deaf families who have chosen CIs and listening and spoken language for their child, including two teachers of the deaf.
As I said, an A.G. Bell conference would not be the place to find a mixed group to ask questions to, and neither would the Deaf community. You will never find a person who was happy using spoken language in the Deaf community because the Deaf community is only composed of people who need or want to use ASL.
 
Teacherofthedeaf said:
Watch it and judge for yourself. It was made by a child of Deaf adults who was nominated for an Oscar. Oh, and I think one of the participants went to Harvard.
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You do understand that's how propaganda works right? The Russians must LOVE you. That is one of the ways they try to sell oralism by highlighting the superstars who would be superstars even if they were hearing. When's the last time an AG Bell scholarship was given to a kid attending a state university?
 
Teacherofthedeaf said:
I specifically said that I am serving two Deaf families right now. I also work with an adult who uses ASL for group meetings and things like that, but still advocates for and works at a spoken language school. In total, I have worked with over a dozen Deaf families who have chosen CIs and listening and spoken language for their child, including two teachers of the deaf.
As I said, an A.G. Bell conference would not be the place to find a mixed group to ask questions to, and neither would the Deaf community. You will never find a person who was happy using spoken language in the Deaf community because the Deaf community is only composed of people who need or want to use ASL.
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Not unless you worked at a sizable GRADED oral deaf school like CID or Clarke. You do realize most Deaf families don't pick oralism as a be all or end all placement, but as a placement to work on speech skills, right? Then they use terps or even send their kids to Deaf School. Also considering the percentage of Deaf families that KNOW that Sign using schools and programs offer a TON of speech therapy and HOH skills, especially now. In the past SOME Sign using programs may have lacked in speech interventions, which is why some families may have had to opt for oralism.....That's genrally not the case any more except in the case of parents or even oral educators who think that the usage of Sign in a program, means no speech or HOH interventions are offered
 
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