Father Confused on Coclear Implant Decision

[Cloggy]

Fragmenter...
You summed it up really well.!!!

The window for speech & hearing skills will close and the window for sign language will never close.​

 

[jillio]

It iis not the window for speech and hearing skills that closes. It is the developmental window regarding language acquisition that closes. ASL can always be learned as a second language, but then, so can English. But one must develop skills in a first language during that critical developmental stage, or the delays and the deficits will remain with that individual for a lifetime. It will be a constant game of catch up. But I emphasize, it is language, not speech.

 

[Fragmenter]

Q: why are anybody able to pick up sign language at a double digit age and NO older deaf people has ever been able to learn how to speak and hear correctly when they try?

A: because the window for hearing and speech skills DO close.

Easy as Dell.

 

[shel90]

I understand that !!! I was faced with the same decisions for my daughter. She was born preemie and severe to profound in both ears. It was like a wrecking ball hit me in the chest when it was confirmed that my daughter was deaf. We have gone through testing and hearing aid trails and more testing now for 8 months or more. I wanted to be sure that there was no change in her hearing and that this was her only chance to hear. I know that there is a possibility that this will not work for her but she will be no worse off because she doesn't hear now. I will love my daughter no matter how this turns out. I am teaching her sign and we are going to the open house for the Deaf Blind school in my area. She will know that she is deaf and if by Gods grace this helps her she will also know the joy of hearing. My daughter will be a beautiful and successful person hearing or not. You just have to weigh all options and go with what is best for you and your family. We can only give advice and share our stories and hope that in some way it may help you. I know that most of the people here have helped me a great deal. Sorry to ramble on. Good luck to you.

Wow! That was beautiful!! I wish more parents around here were more like u especially mine. My mom, to this day, still feels a lot of guilt for my and my brother's deafness even though it genetic-related. I dont know how to tell my mom to get over it and move on cuz my brother and I are very happy people who live productive lives now. I guess I would never know what it is like to be in your or my mom's shoes cuz both of my kids dont have any disabilities so it helps me to understand from your and other parents' point of view. Then again, I would hope u and the other parents would take notice of deaf people's experiences growing up and be wary of all the issues especially when it comes to language development and communication.

I just want to hold your baby.

 

[shel90]

Yes, I think your feelings are understandable! Hugs. I hope that it doesn't become an issue for you.

Thanks!

I hope it wont be an issue cuz I love my job soooo much! I would be heartbroken if I lose my job.

 

[shel90]

Originally Posted by shel90
Yea, that is why I am so concerned about this situation. If they close the deaf schools here in the USA, I will lose my job. I have worked in a deaf program at a public school and I was not happy nor comfortable there as I am with my current job. If I lose my job, I will find a way to find the job that I enjoy doing. I refuse to work at a job that I hate or unhappy at!!!

shel90,
The deaf school here has a program for Ci kids. It is kinda new but maybe that is something you could bring up there. The growing number of implanted kids is what made them decide to start classes for them also. If they already have one sorry. Just a thought.

Yea, my school now has a CI program and using more spoken English now. It is a matter of fine tuning a few ends before it is very effective. We just started the program last year so it is new for all of us.

 

[shel90]

Me. I was born into an all-deaf family, therefore ASL is my first language. I married a wife who is deaf but is able to communicate with anybody, anywhere and anytime. Her day to day life is just so very convenient. You could say it took me 7 years to see the light. I wish I could speak and hear because there have been countless situations where I wish I could speak & hear. I will face those kind of situations again and again in the future. It's a "Groundhog Day" thing for me.

I guess people wants what they don't have. But in my situation, I see both sides clearly and I have my own opinion. The window for speech & hearing skills will close and the window for sign language will never close. Sure, there may be ASL snobs who thinks you cannot sign as well as them... but I've met a couple of deaf people who grew up oral and learned how to sign very skillfully after high school.

Why do you need sign language? Just to be able to communicate with a minority group of people in this world? I fail to come up with an extremely important reason to know sign language.[/QUOTE]


Because I didnt learn sign language at all growing up, I struggled to understand what was going on in my classes especially when I got to middle school when the subjects or lessons became more abstract and complex. If I had sign language, I would have had 100% access to the lessons. I didnt even know the concept of debating my opinions until I went to Gallaudet. Whenever hearing people said, I would follow cuz I thought they knew better. I did miss out a lot growing up but somehow I was able to keep up with my peers barely. That's another good reason learning sign language can make the difference.

 

[shel90]

Q: why are anybody able to pick up sign language at a double digit age and NO older deaf people has ever been able to learn how to speak and hear correctly when they try?

A: because the window for hearing and speech skills DO close.

Easy as Dell.

Ok ...look at my brother's situation and many of the students' at my work situation:
During their first few years of their lives, so much focus was put on developing speech and hearing skills but for some weird reason, they werent unable to make sense of spoken English. I wish I knew why and maybe all these problems can be solved but simply put, there are so many deaf children even with HAs or CIs who have been unable to pick up the auditory cues. Because learning spoken English or any other spoken language was the primary goal, they werent exposed to a visual language so by the age of 5, their language development have become so delayed so when they came to my school or my brother went to his deaf school, at the age of 5, they had to learn ASL as if they were 1 year old and then have to learn to read and write English which is a total separate language. That doubles the challenge for the child and from my experience, I have seen so many children lose motivation to learn cuz the expectations become so difficult for them. That is why I teach at a slow pace for my students cuz their language development is at least 3 years delayed. If they had been exposed to sign language, would learning how to read and write for them be easier? We would never know. I just dont like to take that risk on children cuz it is not fair for them to struggle for the rest of their lives. My brother struggled with reading and writing and he still struggles with his writing to this day.

 

[Victorias mom]

Ivans Dad - My daughter is getting implanted next week. It wasn't an easy decision, but we choose to implant her.

I agree with Kayla123. I am going to quote something she said because it is so true. Good luck with your decision.

"The one thing that gets to me is how people think we implant our child because we want the easy way out and are too lazy to learn sign....If they only knew the amount of work that is put into making a CI work."

 

[greema]

Have you taken a look at your signature line lately?

Yes, and my tolerance for the ______ (you can fill in the blank) on here has just about disappeared -- originally was hoping my signature would remind people to be "more nice and more mature".

Guess I'll just have to change my signature since no one is paying any mind.

 

[sr171soars]

I would take it one step further. It is not simply speech that is empowering, but language. And language can be oral or manual.

The oral or manual approach in the sense of "empowering" somebody is not as clear cut as you make it out to be. Sure, either of them provide a means of communication but there is more to it than that. One is still "stuck" with the fact that the manual approach (a.k.a "sign") is not self documenting in of itself. One has to "translate" sign into some form of written language which is not native to it. So, there is the juxiposition of having to go between two languages. Some can master that game but most have trouble as the thought processes are different as night and day similar to any two widely divergent spoken languages (such as English and Chinese). A big part of that problem is the educational system (lack of empathsis to force signers to truly master a written language that would go a long way to balance things). Another part of that is there are subtle differences in the information that an oral language brings that sign cannot hope to duplicate. The nunances of voice is incredible and it is a "language" of its own. One can't even write that stuff down without having to spend more time in explaining all that jazz for a richly worded sentence full of implicit and loaded meanings.

 

[shel90]

The oral or manual approach in the sense of "empowering" somebody is not as clear cut as you make it out to be. Sure, either of them provide a means of communication but there is more to it than that. One is still "stuck" with the fact that the manual approach (a.k.a "sign") is not self documenting in of itself. One has to "translate" sign into some form of written language which is not native to it. So, there is the juxiposition of having to go between two languages. Some can master that game but most have trouble as the thought processes are different as night and day similar to any two widely divergent spoken languages (such as English and Chinese). A big part of that problem is the educational system (lack of empathsis to force signers to truly master a written language that would go a long way to balance things). Another part of that is there are subtle differences in the information that an oral language brings that sign cannot hope to duplicate. The nunances of voice is incredible and it is a "language" of its own. One can't even write that stuff down without having to spend more time in explaining all that jazz for a richly worded sentence full of implicit and loaded meanings.

Really? Why do many deaf children of deaf families write well?

 

[sr171soars]

Really? Why do many deaf children of deaf families write well?

I would be careful of using the word "many" as that is a totally subjective measure. They got the help they needed (they certainly didn't get it by osmosis) but you know as well as I that is not the case for all or in fact many for a variety of reasons. I keep seeing so many complaints here and elsewhere about their "education" or the lack thereof. Of course, one has to be careful when reading the various "postings" when passing judgement on writing abilities. But the fact remains, how one speaks or writes is a generally a dead giveaway on one's grasp or command of a language. I'm not talking about spelling mistakes or vocabulary either. I speak of grammer or rules and that is the heart of any language. You have some who "got it", some who are doing okay, and some who have a dickens of a time getting across what they mean.

 

[R2D2]

I would take it one step further. It is not simply speech that is empowering, but language. And language can be oral or manual.

Well I don't disagree with that but that isn't what I was talking about. In any situation where the majority communicate in a particular way it's handy to be able to "speak their language" if possible in order to be able to self advocate.

Basically if you can't speak the language of the majority they lose interest very quickly and your negotiating power isn't as great. This is why many migrants learn to speak English because they recognise that it will get them further ahead. It doesn't mean they don't still use their mother tongue or even stop preferring it but it's just a useful skill to have.

 

[shel90]

I would be careful of using the word "many" as that is a totally subjective measure. They got the help they needed (they certainly didn't get it by osmosis) but you know as well as I that is not the case for all or in fact many for a variety of reasons. I keep seeing so many complaints here and elsewhere about their "education" or the lack thereof. Of course, one has to be careful when reading the various "postings" when passing judgement on writing abilities. But the fact remains, how one speaks or writes is a generally a dead giveaway on one's grasp or command of a language. I'm not talking about spelling mistakes or vocabulary either. I speak of grammer or rules and that is the heart of any language. You have some who "got it", some who are doing okay, and some who have a dickens of a time getting across what they mean.

The whole point is having access to language. The more access to the language the child gets whether it is through signing or thru spoken language, the better their chances are at mastering their reading and writing skills. One child not mastering those skills is one too many for me. If the child is not picking up on spoken language, pls teach the child ASL and since there are risks for that happening, I dont see what's wrong with doing both even after the child has been implanted to ensure that the child wont be at risk for language delays. I am here to advocate for those children who missed out on the language during those critical years of development. If they were born with no cognitive disabilities, then there is no reason for them to be language delayed and struggle with reading and writing for the rest of their lives unless the child themselves refuse to learn language.

I use my life experiences as examples so the parents can be aware of the potential issues that may challenge their children. Maybe their children wont face those issue but it doesnt hurt to be aware.

I use my experiences at my job to emphasize the importance of sign language. There is just no excuse to why these kids are struggling with simple concepts, self-identity, and communication. If the child cannot develop speaking or listening skills, what is stopping the parents from learning sign language? If the child develops speaking or listening skills, then make sure that child is fully aware of what is being said or happening is his/her environment. Just be more sensitive the fact that the child could miss out a lot even after learning speaking and listening skills.

I know so many deaf people out there who arent members of this forum who are in the same shoes as many of the ADers here. Some like their CIs, some dont like their CIs, some are proficient in spoken English, some are proficient in all, some are not proficient in spoken English but are excellent readers and writers. We are all different so it is nice to see all these different experiences pointed out so that these parents of newly born deaf children can learn about them and be more sensitive to their children's deaf needs. I just wish those parents who are in denial about their children's deafness would read this forum cuz I think they can learn a lot from this forum.

That is my whole point. I dont care if the CIs work or not...all I care about is that deaf child getting full access to language during those 5 years and also grow up to be socially and emotionally stable too.

 

[sr171soars]

The whole point is having access to language. The more access to the language the child gets whether it is through signing or thru spoken language, the better their chances are at mastering their reading and writing skills. One child not mastering those skills is one too many for me. If the child is not picking up on spoken language, pls teach the child ASL and since there are risks for that happening, I dont see what's wrong with doing both even after the child has been implanted to ensure that the child wont be at risk for language delays. I am here to advocate for those children who missed out on the language during those critical years of development. If they were born with no cognitive disabilities, then there is no reason for them to be language delayed and struggle with reading and writing for the rest of their lives unless the child themselves refuse to learn language.

I use my life experiences as examples so the parents can be aware of the potential issues that may challenge their children. Maybe their children wont face those issue but it doesnt hurt to be aware.

I use my experiences at my job to emphasize the importance of sign language. There is just no excuse to why these kids are struggling with simple concepts, self-identity, and communication. If the child cannot develop speaking or listening skills, what is stopping the parents from learning sign language? If the child develops speaking or listening skills, then make sure that child is fully aware of what is being said or happening is his/her environment. Just be more sensitive the fact that the child could miss out a lot even after learning speaking and listening skills.

I know so many deaf people out there who arent members of this forum who are in the same shoes as many of the ADers here. Some like their CIs, some dont like their CIs, some are proficient in spoken English, some are proficient in all, some are not proficient in spoken English but are excellent readers and writers. We are all different so it is nice to see all these different experiences pointed out so that these parents of newly born deaf children can learn about them and be more sensitive to their children's deaf needs. I just wish those parents who are in denial about their children's deafness would read this forum cuz I think they can learn a lot from this forum.

That is my whole point. I dont care if the CIs work or not...all I care about is that deaf child getting full access to language during those 5 years and also grow up to be socially and emotionally stable too.

You make an impassioned plea to give these children the tools they need. I commend you for that and I will in fact agree with you. No arguments there.

All I was really saying earlier, is that sign all by itself doesn't empower anybody in world where it is a very small minority. The limitations are obvious and it restricts one's potential and opportunities in life. I simply meant to say one must also give these kids at least the written language if not spoken language (in addition to sign) to take on the challenges the world offers. It is another way of saying the greatest good the greatest number.

 

[Ivan's Dad]

Implants Easy?

Ivans Dad - My daughter is getting implanted next week. It wasn't an easy decision, but we choose to implant her.

I agree with Kayla123. I am going to quote something she said because it is so true. Good luck with your decision.

"The one thing that gets to me is how people think we implant our child because we want the easy way out and are too lazy to learn sign....If they only knew the amount of work that is put into making a CI work."

I have never said choosing an implant for your child is an easy way out. It is indeed a fantastic amount of work. No matter what you choose for your deaf child, communication will always be a struggle.

Good luck to you, and I wish you all the best.

 

[Ivan's Dad]

My conclusions

This is not the first and only source that I am using to draw my conclusions. It has been over a year that this topic has been occuping the bulk of my thoughts.

There is much passion and emotions involved in this debate of what is best for our deaf children but there are some facts that, to me, cannot be ignored. If anyone can shed more light on this subject or tell me that I misunderstand the important facts, please tell me.

Fact 1:

The all important window for language development (1 to 3 or 5 or 6 depending on who you talk with. Some say language aquisition starts in the womb) This window cannot be misses. During this time children must be exposed to as much well formed language as possible for them to develop good language skills in the future.

Fact 2:

A child born severe to profoundly deaf may learn to use oral communication. With more effort the chances increase that the child may learn. With more technology the chances increase as well. But there are NO GUARENTEES! Some will always slip through without developing any language. They may only be discovered after the critical language learning period.

Teaching a deaf child to speak takes a fantastic amount of time and effort for both the parents and the child.

Fact 3:

All "normal" deaf children ...... actually all children can easily attain visual communication through the use of sign language. It will take parents a lot of effort to learn to model good visual language skills, but for the child it will come naturally and easily.


Conclusions:

If Fact 1 is true and Fact 2 is not guarenteed, then to ensure that your child develops in a well balanced health way he/she must have access to a visual language. This is regardless to what technologies you choose for your child.

However if your child shows signs that he will be able to pick up an oral language by all means support him with that.

I will not deny the fact that there is more oppertunities for a child with strong oral communication skills than a child with only sign language skills. However there are NO oppertunities for a child with no communication skills. I am an advocate for communication for all children guarenteed.

Learning ASL is not an easy task, nor is teaching your deaf child oral skills, one is assured success and one is not. I would rather persue a path that is assured rather than one that is not. As much as I would like to see Ivan master both spoken and signed languages I fear that I do not have the stamina and energy to persue both fully.

To make a cochlear implant work you must be ready to be dedicated to the rehabilitation process after that implant has been done.

Ivan would not be able to get an implant before he is 3/5ths of the way through the critical period for language accqusition. Then there is the period of time required for mapping and him learning to recognize the sounds he can now hear. Then we can start to learn spoken language. At what cost to the Visual communication that we have already started with. How do we dedicate our small amount of available time between work and our busy lives to do both.

We can not decide to give our child an implant with the information that we have.

 

[Cloggy]

Excellent,
Do not rush your decision..

But do find out, medically, how much your son hears...
There must be ways to map his hearing. ABR, ERA etc.

And again, communication is the most important thing. If sign has started, do not even think about stopping it. Not even if you made a decision to go for CI.
We had started sign with our daughter way before she got an implant, and knowing sign meant that she was allways able to express herself while she learned to hear and speak.

Signlanguage will help him develop parts of the brain that would be left out when there's no communication..
Read to him, Read with him, and let him read to you...
It's magic !!

 

[rockdrummer]

This is not the first and only source that I am using to draw my conclusions. It has been over a year that this topic has been occuping the bulk of my thoughts.

That is the best thing you can do to get an overall objective picture.

There is much passion and emotions involved in this debate of what is best for our deaf children but there are some facts that, to me, cannot be ignored. If anyone can shed more light on this subject or tell me that I misunderstand the important facts, please tell me.

My comment here is that not eveything you present below as facts are really facts. Which is why there is debate over some of them.

Fact 1:
The all important window for language development (1 to 3 or 5 or 6 depending on who you talk with. Some say language aquisition starts in the womb) This window cannot be misses. During this time children must be exposed to as much well formed language as possible for them to develop good language skills in the future.

This is a point of contention. Is there really a window? Your comment about "depending on who you talk with" should be an indicator that perhaps the jury is still out on this one. I am currently interested in the definitive answer to the wiindow of opportunity question. We were led to believe there is a window of opportunity and that overwhelmingly drove our decision. If it turns out that there isn't, then I would feel that we were duped by the doctors. At the risk of sounding cyniclal, the doctors have their agendas and they are not always in the best interest of the patients.

Fact 2:
A child born severe to profoundly deaf may learn to use oral communication. With more effort the chances increase that the child may learn. With more technology the chances increase as well. But there are NO GUARENTEES! Some will always slip through without developing any language. They may only be discovered after the critical language learning period.

Teaching a deaf child to speak takes a fantastic amount of time and effort for both the parents and the child.

There are no guarentees in any path you choose. You have a deaf child and (as I am sure you allready know) will expend a lot of time and effort in any path you choose.

Fact 3:
All "normal" deaf children ...... actually all children can easily attain visual communication through the use of sign language. It will take parents a lot of effort to learn to model good visual language skills, but for the child it will come naturally and easily.

Be very careful here, it sounds like you are taking the easy way out. Don't let the effort you will spend sway your decision. As mentioned above, you will spend effort no matter which path you choose. And as you know, your child is worth the effort.

Conclusions:

If Fact 1 is true and Fact 2 is not guarenteed, then to ensure that your child develops in a well balanced health way he/she must have access to a visual language. This is regardless to what technologies you choose for your child.

However if your child shows signs that he will be able to pick up an oral language by all means support him with that.

I will not deny the fact that there is more oppertunities for a child with strong oral communication skills than a child with only sign language skills. However there are NO oppertunities for a child with no communication skills. I am an advocate for communication for all children guarenteed.

Learning ASL is not an easy task, nor is teaching your deaf child oral skills, one is assured success and one is not. I would rather persue a path that is assured rather than one that is not. As much as I would like to see Ivan master both spoken and signed languages I fear that I do not have the stamina and energy to persue both fully.

To make a cochlear implant work you must be ready to be dedicated to the rehabilitation process after that implant has been done.

Ivan would not be able to get an implant before he is 3/5ths of the way through the critical period for language accqusition. Then there is the period of time required for mapping and him learning to recognize the sounds he can now hear. Then we can start to learn spoken language. At what cost to the Visual communication that we have already started with. How do we dedicate our small amount of available time between work and our busy lives to do both.

We can not decide to give our child an implant with the information that we have.

For the most part I concur with your conclusion. Not for the same reasons you do but I respect your decision. Having gone through it myself I know how exhausting it can be and at the end of the day you still ask yourself if you have done the right thing. I wish you and your family all the best!!